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Electric Car Depreciation - Steveieb

With VW closing its largest EV plant in Germany due to “ Strong Customer Reluctance “ it seems to be having an effect on second hand EV prices.

One dealer phoning in to BBC “You and Yours” told the interviewer that he had bought three second hand EVs before Christmas and they are still on his forecourt.

The Hyundai Ionic appears to have the largest depreciation of 50% over three years.

Electric Car Depreciation - alan1302

With VW closing its largest EV plant in Germany due to “ Strong Customer Reluctance “ it seems to be having an effect on second hand EV price

VW are not closing their largest EV plant, that's simply not true.

Electric Car Depreciation - Brit_in_Germany

The wording of the article is 'pausing work on electric models' for 6 weeks at its Emden plant, one of VW's largest.

Electric Car Depreciation - sammy1

Well if the list/purchase price of EVs at today is shall we say too high then the market price in 3 years will be reflected in a higher than average price drop. If people are still reluctant to buy the second hand then their values could be hit even harder. A lot of average buyers given like for like cars are just not going to pay a great deal more for a depreciating car because it is an EV. The extra VED on the average £40k list car will also effect its second hand values.

Edited by sammy1 on 01/07/2023 at 13:16

Electric Car Depreciation - FP

On the other hand, cheaper second-hand EVs.

I've never bought a new car anyway.

Electric Car Depreciation - _

I can still find enough cars I want without paying the 6 year premium of £340.

Electric Car Depreciation - SLO76
The retail motor trade are rightly hammering them, partly due to unacceptably high initial prices and partly due to anxiety over battery lifespan and the ludicrous cost to replace them. I wouldn’t consider a new EV, our local Nissan dealer was offering us a new Leaf for £28,000 or £30k plus for the big battery model. But out three year old example at £13,600 makes a genuine economic case for itself. The bulk of the depreciation has been taken out of it already. Buy right and EV can be viable.
Electric Car Depreciation - pd

For ages the argument made on this forum has been EVs will never be affordable by "ordinary" people and will price many out of motoring.

Well, depreciation, as it always has been, is the answer!

Electric Car Depreciation - Falkirk Bairn

Son bought a Porsche Taycan 2 years ago.

Sold after 18 months - trailered in at the beginning of the year 3 times.

It had had 2 battery changeses in his ownership as there were problems charging and range.

He loved it when it worked properly but in 18 months it was in the garage 2 months awaiting parts - new AC needed in week 1 and 2 batteries - 3 weeks wait for parts. Ac was replaced with AC from a showroom car as parts were in short supply.

Replaced by petrol Cayenne. He lost $30K in the 18 months

Edited by Falkirk Bairn on 01/07/2023 at 16:03

Electric Car Depreciation - Steveieb

By bringing the net zero date back to 2030, the UK has set itself up for the rest of the world to realise that the changeover to electrification cannot be achieved by a nation, in such a short period of time, when many UK motorists see this being imposed on them against their wishes

Electric Car Depreciation - Xileno

2030 won't hold, it will slip to 2035 after the next Election.

Electric Car Depreciation - FoxyJukebox
Totally agree-can’t wait to see every parking space everywhere with a charging point( ha ha) …so 2040 is the earliest I reckon.
Electric Car Depreciation - alan1302
Totally agree-can’t wait to see every parking space everywhere with a charging point( ha ha) …so 2040 is the earliest I reckon.

No need for them in every space - by 2040 there will be cars with much larger capacities and much faster charging available so no need for there to be chargers everywhere, thankfully.

Electric Car Depreciation - barney100

That's what I think. It's imposing EVs on us yet they are an unproven product and the persiflage from the advertisers and manufacturers is pathetic.

Electric Car Depreciation - Ian_SW

A few years ago, a car which held onto 50% of its list price after 3 years would have been considered to have held its value fairly well.

Back in 2004 I bought an ex-demo Octavia which was less than a year old for about 65% of its list price, and that was the one most local to me, rather than the cheapest in the country.

In 2009 I very nearly replaced that car with a 1 year old Astra which was for sale for 40% of its original list price - but in the end decided I liked the Octavia too much to let it go for the £2500 it was then worth and kept it another 4 years instead.

Electric Car Depreciation - Adampr

Son bought a Porsche Taycan 2 years ago.

Sold after 18 months - trailered in at the beginning of the year 3 times.

It had had 2 battery changeses in his ownership as there were problems charging and range.

He loved it when it worked properly but in 18 months it was in the garage 2 months awaiting parts - new AC needed in week 1 and 2 batteries - 3 weeks wait for parts. Ac was replaced with AC from a showroom car as parts were in short supply.

Replaced by petrol Cayenne. He lost $30K in the 18 months

VW seem to have real problems with their EV reliability. A colleague's Q4 E-Tron is forever going back to the dealer.

Electric Car Depreciation - Engineer Andy

For ages the argument made on this forum has been EVs will never be affordable by "ordinary" people and will price many out of motoring.

Well, depreciation, as it always has been, is the answer!

No good if the replacement part you are most likely to need costs £7k - £15k! A car can depreciate by 80% a year, but if parts cost a fortune and as it ages, the likelihood of it needing replacements increases exponentially, then no-one will want to buy them.

At least with ICE the likelihood of several major engine components failing within short order is minimal. Besides, you don't need to spend £1k on a home filling point for ICE, unlike EVs, and I certainly wouldn't want to rely on public chargers for a 15yo car that at best gets well under 100 miles (and often considerably less than 60) of range.

Electric Car Depreciation - alan1302

For ages the argument made on this forum has been EVs will never be affordable by "ordinary" people and will price many out of motoring.

Well, depreciation, as it always has been, is the answer!

No good if the replacement part you are most likely to need costs £7k - £15k! A car can depreciate by 80% a year, but if parts cost a fortune and as it ages, the likelihood of it needing replacements increases exponentially, then no-one will want to buy them.

At least with ICE the likelihood of several major engine components failing within short order is minimal. Besides, you don't need to spend £1k on a home filling point for ICE, unlike EVs, and I certainly wouldn't want to rely on public chargers for a 15yo car that at best gets well under 100 miles (and often considerably less than 60) of range.

This is why Andy never loses an argument - he says the cars cost too much, now they are losing loads of value...ah, but they will be too expensive to fix...I expect if they were fixed cheap there would be something else wrong with them! :-)

Electric Car Depreciation - Engineer Andy

For ages the argument made on this forum has been EVs will never be affordable by "ordinary" people and will price many out of motoring.

Well, depreciation, as it always has been, is the answer!

No good if the replacement part you are most likely to need costs £7k - £15k! A car can depreciate by 80% a year, but if parts cost a fortune and as it ages, the likelihood of it needing replacements increases exponentially, then no-one will want to buy them.

At least with ICE the likelihood of several major engine components failing within short order is minimal. Besides, you don't need to spend £1k on a home filling point for ICE, unlike EVs, and I certainly wouldn't want to rely on public chargers for a 15yo car that at best gets well under 100 miles (and often considerably less than 60) of range.

This is why Andy never loses an argument - he says the cars cost too much, now they are losing loads of value...ah, but they will be too expensive to fix...I expect if they were fixed cheap there would be something else wrong with them! :-)

So, nothing worthwhile to say to dismantle my arguments then?

Electric Car Depreciation - alan1302

For ages the argument made on this forum has been EVs will never be affordable by "ordinary" people and will price many out of motoring.

Well, depreciation, as it always has been, is the answer!

No good if the replacement part you are most likely to need costs £7k - £15k! A car can depreciate by 80% a year, but if parts cost a fortune and as it ages, the likelihood of it needing replacements increases exponentially, then no-one will want to buy them.

At least with ICE the likelihood of several major engine components failing within short order is minimal. Besides, you don't need to spend £1k on a home filling point for ICE, unlike EVs, and I certainly wouldn't want to rely on public chargers for a 15yo car that at best gets well under 100 miles (and often considerably less than 60) of range.

This is why Andy never loses an argument - he says the cars cost too much, now they are losing loads of value...ah, but they will be too expensive to fix...I expect if they were fixed cheap there would be something else wrong with them! :-)

So, nothing worthwhile to say to dismantle my arguments then?

Yes, plenty, but not worth my time replying to you.

Electric Car Depreciation - Engineer Andy

For ages the argument made on this forum has been EVs will never be affordable by "ordinary" people and will price many out of motoring.

Well, depreciation, as it always has been, is the answer!

No good if the replacement part you are most likely to need costs £7k - £15k! A car can depreciate by 80% a year, but if parts cost a fortune and as it ages, the likelihood of it needing replacements increases exponentially, then no-one will want to buy them.

At least with ICE the likelihood of several major engine components failing within short order is minimal. Besides, you don't need to spend £1k on a home filling point for ICE, unlike EVs, and I certainly wouldn't want to rely on public chargers for a 15yo car that at best gets well under 100 miles (and often considerably less than 60) of range.

This is why Andy never loses an argument - he says the cars cost too much, now they are losing loads of value...ah, but they will be too expensive to fix...I expect if they were fixed cheap there would be something else wrong with them! :-)

So, nothing worthwhile to say to dismantle my arguments then?

Yes, plenty, but not worth my time replying to you.

And yet, you did on more than one occasion with sarcasm, but with nothing substantive. Rather says it all.

Electric Car Depreciation - FiestaOwner

One dealer phoning in to BBC “You and Yours” told the interviewer that he had bought three second hand EVs before Christmas and they are still on his forecourt.

Have a look at this youtube link showing the depreciation of a Golf vs an ID3. It's quite an eye opener. If they had started off at the same price, I wonder if they would both be selling for a similar price now?

youtu.be/bqYI_vLYDk0?t=256

Electric Car Depreciation - catsdad

The government is going to fine manufacturers if they don’t meet given percentages of EVs. If a manufacturer sells “excess” ICE cars they will face huge taxes per excess car. Presumably this will reflect in new ICE car prices closing in on EVs.

Their depreciation curves might then be closer. All at the expense of the motorist.

Electric Car Depreciation - sammy1

The government is going to fine manufacturers if they don’t meet given percentages of EVs. If a manufacturer sells “excess” ICE cars they will face huge taxes per excess car. Presumably this will reflect in new ICE car prices closing in on EVs.

Their depreciation curves might then be closer. All at the expense of the motorist.

It is not a level playing field for the car manufacturers either. The EU and the UK have agreed penalty tariffs on EVs that do not meet 25% of components that sourced within this countries. Perhaps another reason why prices are so high

Electric Car Depreciation - barney100

Very good video, I'm driving an old Volvo too!

Electric Car Depreciation - John F

.The Hyundai Ionic appears to have the largest depreciation of 50% over three years.

It could be superficially argued that's quite good as accountants ' write off ' 25% of the cost every year. My Audi A8 cost £72000 new and I paid £12000 for it 9yrs ago when it was 8yrs old with a mere 49,000 miles. My previous Audi, an A6 2.8SE, cost around £30,000 new; I paid £8000 for it when it was just over 4yrs old with nearly 80,000 miles.

But, inflation needs to be considered. Pounds are not (and never have been to a greater or lesser degree) what they once were. Mrs F's brand new Peugeot 2008 cost £17,000, and at nearly four years old appears to have 'lost' less than 20%, putting the Ionic in a poor light by comparison. However, as a result of the recent surge in inflation, to replace it with a new comparable Pug 2008 would cost many thousands more, which makes the Ionic's depreciation of 50% in our recently debased currency truly horrendous.

Electric Car Depreciation - madf

The National Grid needs £ billions to enable existing wind farms to connect to the Grid at Peak times. (They said in 2020 that they were OK, no money need be spent: which shows what a cursory examination that was)

As they have no even started planning what they need to do - as it getting Planning Permission - expect that will be used as an excuse to delay 2030.

Meanwhile the Government are planning to change Planning Law so new Pylons/electric cables can festoon the countryside more quickly.

A monumental tale of gross incompetence on behalf of Government. (and wholescale ignoring of reality)

Electric Car Depreciation - Terry W

It's always convenient to blame the government, but National Grid is a PLC owned by non-government shareholders.

It is subject to regulation by OFGEM - their remit is largely to ensure that plans are developed in conjunction with industry bodies - generators, distribution companies etc.

It would be reasonable to question whether the remit is adequate to effectively plan demand and investment, or whether OFGEM are even competent.

If government cannot get regulation right, the chances of them running a nationalised industry with all the additional complexities above regulation must be vanishingly small.

Investment needs to be paid for and sadly (I suspect) National Grid trimmed back investment over the years to keep energy bills as low as possible. Chickens coming home to roost now seems to be the case (the water industry is no different).

Electric Car Depreciation - corax
ustry with all the additional complexities above regulation must be vanishingly small.

Investment needs to be paid for and sadly (I suspect) National Grid trimmed back investment over the years to keep energy bills as low as possible. Chickens coming home to roost now seems to be the case (the water industry is no different).

What about rail services? Expensive ticket prices, less trains running, trains cancelled. They have been improving the infrastructure since 1993, which was apparently in bad shape. When is it ever going to be reasonably priced and efficient?

Electric Car Depreciation - Adampr
ustry with all the additional complexities above regulation must be vanishingly small.

Investment needs to be paid for and sadly (I suspect) National Grid trimmed back investment over the years to keep energy bills as low as possible. Chickens coming home to roost now seems to be the case (the water industry is no different).

What about rail services? Expensive ticket prices, less trains running, trains cancelled. They have been improving the infrastructure since 1993, which was apparently in bad shape. When is it ever going to be reasonably priced and efficient?

When it gets nationalised again and people remember that sometimes public services are better than someone making a profit.

Electric Car Depreciation - SLO76
I don’t take issue with anyone making a profit, I (almost) fully support free market economics but we need a stable foundation to underpin our economy and that requires some nationalisation. As a small business owner for many years, I still rent out that property and thanks to crippling energy costs and i****ic local government policies I’ve had 4 tenants in said property in the last 3 years. None can make a go of it and many other local businesses are c******d or closing down thanks to unmanageable energy costs including our local ice rink.

Our energy market isn’t fit for purpose, there is no genuine competition with energy generators selling onto the retailers at a set wholesale price instead of being based on what it actually cost them to generate. I’m with the French on this one, energy is a vital strategic asset, it can make the difference of life and death to individuals and to industry and needs to be nationalised. The French held price rises down to around 4% while our energy prices soared out of control. It might have to be subsidised by tax payers but it gives business and individuals stability and security. But tough anti strike laws would need to be imposed to avoid going back to the dark days of the 70’s, that’s why it was all sold off in the first place, to stop the big unions from dominating the nation.

I believe in the private sector only if genuine competition can be generated, in order to keep standards of service high and prices low. But in some places this can’t work and transport is a fine example. Trains are run in monopoly positions across the nation, you can’t simply shop around for a better deal as only one operator will offer trains in that area. This isn’t going to offer reasonable prices to the end consumer. Ditto most bus services. I used to work for a large nationwide bus and coach firm and they have increased fares on some routes by as much as 50% in the last two years and customers have little other option other than to accept it as other large firms won’t enter into competition with them and smaller ones are immediately overwhelmed if they try. This market doesn’t work either and cheap public transport is vital to a dynamic economy. We badly need change here.
Electric Car Depreciation - Engineer Andy
ustry with all the additional complexities above regulation must be vanishingly small.

Investment needs to be paid for and sadly (I suspect) National Grid trimmed back investment over the years to keep energy bills as low as possible. Chickens coming home to roost now seems to be the case (the water industry is no different).

What about rail services? Expensive ticket prices, less trains running, trains cancelled. They have been improving the infrastructure since 1993, which was apparently in bad shape. When is it ever going to be reasonably priced and efficient?

When it gets nationalised again and people remember that sometimes public services are better than someone making a profit.

And nationalised rail; was always sooooo brilliant, whatever party was in charge.

Just like all the utility companies. The problem has been how they are managed and regulated. Politicians (of all stripes) are perfectly happy to leav as is because all they want is for someone else to blame other than themselves, after all. That's why Quangos exist.

Electric Car Depreciation - Adampr
ustry with all the additional complexities above regulation must be vanishingly small.

Investment needs to be paid for and sadly (I suspect) National Grid trimmed back investment over the years to keep energy bills as low as possible. Chickens coming home to roost now seems to be the case (the water industry is no different).

What about rail services? Expensive ticket prices, less trains running, trains cancelled. They have been improving the infrastructure since 1993, which was apparently in bad shape. When is it ever going to be reasonably priced and efficient?

When it gets nationalised again and people remember that sometimes public services are better than someone making a profit.

And nationalised rail; was always sooooo brilliant, whatever party was in charge.

Just like all the utility companies. The problem has been how they are managed and regulated. Politicians (of all stripes) are perfectly happy to leav as is because all they want is for someone else to blame other than themselves, after all. That's why Quangos exist.

It was rubbish, but that was because it was horribly underfunded. Privatisation has brought in enough commercial nous to make if profitable, but all of that has vanished into shareholders' pockets, so it's still rubbish but someone has made some money.

If the Government was actually bothered about zero carbon, they'd stop messing around with electric cars and fiddling carbon emissions on new buildings and invest in a proper rail network. Yes, it would lose money but so do various things from street lights to the entire defence budget.

Electric Car Depreciation - barney100

No, not only very expensive to travel by rail but you can't guarantee the train will be running. More strikes etc coming, week end track works prolific around here....please use service bus....now the ticket offices are going the way of supermarket tills, it's a disaster in the making.

Electric Car Depreciation - mcb100
A three train journey from Rochdale to Appleby-in-Westmoreland last Sunday.
Train one - Rochdale to Wigan. Cancelled.
Train two - Wigan to Carlisle. Running, on time. Very full.
Train three - Carlisle to Appleby. Original train cancelled, had to wait another hour.
Glad to get in a car in Appleby and drive home.
Electric Car Depreciation - corax
A three train journey from Rochdale to Appleby-in-Westmoreland last Sunday. Train one - Rochdale to Wigan. Cancelled. Train two - Wigan to Carlisle. Running, on time. Very full. Train three - Carlisle to Appleby. Original train cancelled, had to wait another hour. Glad to get in a car in Appleby and drive home.

There will be many people who would rather travel by train but are forced to drive due to the abysmal service. This in turn increases the traffic on the roads to everyones detriment.

You wouldn't have thought that we were once the pioneers of rail travel. We are very good at innovation but can't run a business properly afterwards.

Electric Car Depreciation - Terry W

Train tickets:

  • are not taxed
  • are still much more expensive than either cars or coaches
  • need public subsidies
  • are much less than reliable.

Trains were an industrial revolution game changer 200 years ago no longer fit for purpose.

Nationalisation simply transfers their inadequacies into the public sector. With the exception of commuter lines into large urban areas they should be scrapped. Pull up the lines, resurface and use as a priority network for coaches.

These would be able to leave their priority network and actually deliver passengers where they want to go rather than where the Victorians though it expedient to put the stations.

Electric Car Depreciation - Andrew-T

Trains were an industrial revolution game changer 200 years ago no longer fit for purpose.

Few railways were built with the purpose of carrying passengers (except commuter systems like the Tube to ease congestion), they were intended to improve the transport of bulk goods, and later agricultural produce. A few lines were built to places like seaside resorts, but that was more to create the resorts (profit) than to benefit the passengers.

However the opening of the first main line from Liverpool to Manchester in 1830 proved that the public wanted to travel, so it became a profitable sideline, until those people decided they wanted more convenient door-to-door transport.

Edited by Andrew-T on 03/07/2023 at 11:21

Electric Car Depreciation - madf

OFGEM: a regulator which encouraged - note "encouraged" - to the electricity and gas supply market to ignore common financial caution and not hedge any of its fixed price contracts. Consequently WE - customers - were left with bills of £ billions to pick up the pieces when suppliers went bust when unhedged wholesale prices rose and suppliers were selling at fixed prices.

OFGEM: whose rules BAN the cutting off of supply to OAPs but did not monitor it. It was only when the BBC revealed it was happening when they did something. (IT happened to my brother - EDF cut him off at Xmas)

By any measure OFGEM are grossly incompetent. and unfit to run a sweet shop.

Electric Car Depreciation - Manatee

If government cannot get regulation right, the chances of them running a nationalised industry with all the additional complexities above regulation must be vanishingly small.

I don't see the logic of that. Regulation has not done a very good job with water, but OFWAT is independent of central government. Maybe the government could have kicked them around a bit but I suspect a Conservative government finds that difficult. Donors, you know.

I can think of a few reasons why government as owner might foul it up (as with the NHS, e.g. simply not funding it adequately and no joined up thinking) but conversely privatisation is just giving assets, and our money, away. As we have seen with water, there is not a lot of capital at risk by the time they have replaced it with debt and taken it out as dividends.

Electric Car Depreciation - Terry W

For OFWAT I believe the Secretary of State agrees the appointment of the Chief Executive, non-executive directors and, most importantly the framework within which OFWAT operate.

If the framework is inadequate the regulatory process will be weak. Whether the framework is compromised to profit Tory donors and pals needs evidence not rumour mongering.

Possibly a little like the BBC they have a high level of independence to ensure their activities are reasonably free from political meddling, but I would be in no doubt when push comes to shove, the government get involved.

Electric Car Depreciation - mcb100
‘ By bringing the net zero date back to 2030 ‘

The aim for UK net zero is 2050, but the current date to outlaw the sale on everything but plug-in hybrids and EV’s is 2030.
Automotive is a tiny part of net zero.

Edited by mcb100 on 02/07/2023 at 15:42

Electric Car Depreciation - Ethan Edwards

I'm somewhat disappointed now. Apparently the used EV market is full of virtually new cars being sold for peanuts. Well if that's so great cos I'll buy another one right now.. But sadly it appears to be a complete load of codswallop. Owners and dealers appear to want a fair bit of money. Aaah sadly another Internet truism bites the dust.

So if you know of these EV Unicorns...point me and my wads of cash in the right direction. Ta.

Electric Car Depreciation - gordonbennet

Somethings changing, and not just with battery cars, i'd hang on a short while Ethan Edwards and see what happens to prices.

I put an inquiry out on CarWow for new Corolla Hybrid Estate, several offers came back with i think the biggest discount being just short of 12%, and this being a popular fast selling car, maybe bigger discounts will be on the way for less 'cast iron' purchases.

Electric Car Depreciation - sammy1

Somethings changing, and not just with battery cars, i'd hang on a short while Ethan Edwards and see what happens to prices.

I put an inquiry out on CarWow for new Corolla Hybrid Estate, several offers came back with i think the biggest discount being just short of 12%, and this being a popular fast selling car, maybe bigger discounts will be on the way for less 'cast iron' purchases.

Discount great, trouble is you cannot get a car. Neighbour had been waiting over 12 months gave up and changed to a CHR in March Delivery sometime in August.

Electric Car Depreciation - Terry W
‘ By bringing the net zero date back to 2030 ‘ The aim for UK net zero is 2050, but the current date to outlaw the sale on everything but plug-in hybrids and EV’s is 2030. Automotive is a tiny part of net zero.

Not a tiny part - road transport is the largest sector and accounts for ~25% of UK emissions - although some will relate to HGVs.

2030 as the date for EVs means that s/h ICE will continue to be used - possibly for 20 years by which time few will be left. Whether they are then banned absolutely is still open.

Electric Car Depreciation - madf

". Tesla deliveries trounce expectations

Tesla (NASDAQ:TSLA) announced that deliveries in the second quarter jumped to a record 466,140, in a sign that a decision by the electric carmaker's boss Elon Musk to slash vehicle prices may be boosting demand.

The figure -- which is seen by shareholders as the closest proxy for sales that Tesla makes available -- was 83% higher than the same period last year. It also beat Bloomberg consensus expectations for shipments of 448,350."

uk.investing.com/news/economy/tesla-deliveries-vis...9

Yes EVs are failing and demand is flattening out - NOT.

Tesla is the world's fastest growing large car maker and will be the largest one by 2030 if the current trend continues.

PS VW's offerings are notorious for complex interfaces making use difficult.

Edited by madf on 03/07/2023 at 11:03

Electric Car Depreciation - Adampr

". Tesla deliveries trounce expectations

Tesla (NASDAQ:TSLA) announced that deliveries in the second quarter jumped to a record 466,140, in a sign that a decision by the electric carmaker's boss Elon Musk to slash vehicle prices may be boosting demand.

The figure -- which is seen by shareholders as the closest proxy for sales that Tesla makes available -- was 83% higher than the same period last year. It also beat Bloomberg consensus expectations for shipments of 448,350."

uk.investing.com/news/economy/tesla-deliveries-vis...9

Yes EVs are failing and demand is flattening out - NOT.

Tesla is the world's fastest growing large car maker and will be the largest one by 2030 if the current trend continues.

PS VW's offerings are notorious for complex interfaces making use difficult.

As I enjoy needless nit-picking: pricing can't affect demand. Price cuts boost sales, but the demand was there already, just at a lower price point

Electric Car Depreciation - sammy1

Tesla the most bland looking car on the road, but at least Tesla have made an effort to make it aerodynamic and not shaped like a brick! They started a car from scratch with their EV and not like some others who mainly just swopped the drive train

Electric Car Depreciation - Manatee

". Tesla deliveries trounce expectations

Tesla (NASDAQ:TSLA) announced that deliveries in the second quarter jumped to a record 466,140, in a sign that a decision by the electric carmaker's boss Elon Musk to slash vehicle prices may be boosting demand.

The figure -- which is seen by shareholders as the closest proxy for sales that Tesla makes available -- was 83% higher than the same period last year. It also beat Bloomberg consensus expectations for shipments of 448,350."

uk.investing.com/news/economy/tesla-deliveries-vis...9

Yes EVs are failing and demand is flattening out - NOT.

Tesla is the world's fastest growing large car maker and will be the largest one by 2030 if the current trend continues.

PS VW's offerings are notorious for complex interfaces making use difficult.

As I enjoy needless nit-picking: pricing can't affect demand. Price cuts boost sales, but the demand was there already, just at a lower price point

I might be missing your point, but it's undeniable that price affects demand and it's the probably the first thing taught in economics. Reductio ad absurdum, if they were £10 everybody would want one. If they were £1m., nobody would.

Price cuts boost sales because price cuts increase demand. Demand means people prepared to buy, not just desiring one.

Electric Car Depreciation - Adampr

". Tesla deliveries trounce expectations

Tesla (NASDAQ:TSLA) announced that deliveries in the second quarter jumped to a record 466,140, in a sign that a decision by the electric carmaker's boss Elon Musk to slash vehicle prices may be boosting demand.

The figure -- which is seen by shareholders as the closest proxy for sales that Tesla makes available -- was 83% higher than the same period last year. It also beat Bloomberg consensus expectations for shipments of 448,350."

uk.investing.com/news/economy/tesla-deliveries-vis...9

Yes EVs are failing and demand is flattening out - NOT.

Tesla is the world's fastest growing large car maker and will be the largest one by 2030 if the current trend continues.

PS VW's offerings are notorious for complex interfaces making use difficult.

As I enjoy needless nit-picking: pricing can't affect demand. Price cuts boost sales, but the demand was there already, just at a lower price point

I might be missing your point, but it's undeniable that price affects demand and it's the probably the first thing taught in economics. Reductio ad absurdum, if they were £10 everybody would want one. If they were £1m., nobody would.

Price cuts boost sales because price cuts increase demand. Demand means people prepared to buy, not just desiring one.

We could waste hours debating this, but I humbly disagree and will leave it there because it was kind of a pointless thing to say in the first place.

Electric Car Depreciation - alan1302

ce cuts boost sales, but the demand was there already, just at a lower price point

I might be missing your point, but it's undeniable that price affects demand and it's the probably the first thing taught in economics. Reductio ad absurdum, if they were £10 everybody would want one. If they were £1m., nobody would.

Price cuts boost sales because price cuts increase demand. Demand means people prepared to buy, not just desiring one.

If you don't want one then even if they are free you would not want one...if they are less expensive more people will be able to afford one but the people that don't want one still wont.

Electric Car Depreciation - sammy1

The article copied below may be another reason why EVs are depreciating faster than one may realise. In an accident if the battery compartment of the EV is damaged it is more often than not too expensive to repair and the car is a total write off It quotes figures of some £29k to replace a battery on a premium car and some £14K on your lower priced cars This in turn would not be good news for insurance premiums on EVs

Electric vehicles claims are 25% higher than petrol cars (msn.com)

I am only the messenger here not the article writer so this is my disclaimer should I have any more aggro over my EV views. I am still learning and sitting on the fence like I presume many others are!

Electric Car Depreciation - sammy1

Here are some hard numbers on 3 year old EVs loosing value in only the last 6months. Your hard earned readies. The Nissan leaf gets a mention £6k down much the same as the rest. At least a member did not loose any money on his purchase price.

Also is a list of 3 year old ICE cars some still going up.

Used electric car values have dropped like a stone in 2023: We reveal the biggest second-hand fallers in the first half of the year - and the worst 20 are all EVs (msn.com)

Electric Car Depreciation - Terry W

Here are some hard numbers on 3 year old EVs loosing value in only the last 6months. Your hard earned readies. The Nissan leaf gets a mention £6k down much the same as the rest. At least a member did not loose any money on his purchase price.

Can't win. Either EVs:

  • are so expensive that normal folk will never afford them, or
  • are not worth buying as they depreciate too fast making them too cheap

Like most new tech early adopters pay a premium price. As products mature, typically performance improves and prices reduce.

Many EV manufacturers are reducing prices and introducing cheaper models. Even Dacia have plans for a city EV with ~140 miles range at (probably) around £12-14k

Electric Car Depreciation - FiestaOwner
Like most new tech early adopters pay a premium price. As products mature, typically performance improves and prices reduce.

Exactly this!!!

Electric Car Depreciation - FiestaOwner

Here are some hard numbers on 3 year old EVs loosing value in only the last 6months. Your hard earned readies. The Nissan leaf gets a mention £6k down much the same as the rest. At least a member did not loose any money on his purchase price.

Also is a list of 3 year old ICE cars some still going up.

Used electric car values have dropped like a stone in 2023: We reveal the biggest second-hand fallers in the first half of the year - and the worst 20 are all EVs (msn.com)

Interesting article, thanks for the link.

As the used prices plummet, surely consumers won't pay the overinflated new prices (and therefore take the huge hit on depreciation). This will force new prices to drop.

The recent announcement of cars such as the VW ID2 and ID1 (with lower target prices) will force companies (such as Vauxhall, Nissan, Peugeot etc) to lower their prices.

Electric Car Depreciation - badbusdriver

Many EV manufacturers are reducing prices and introducing cheaper models. Even Dacia have plans for a city EV with ~140 miles range at (probably) around £12-14k

Not so "much have plans for", because it already exists!. The question has been surrounding when, or if, the Dacia Spring will come to the UK. That is partly due to the cost of the conversion to RHD, but also concerns over how much its poor Euro NCAP crash test results will affect sales. This will be partly through not having the fancy anti-collision tech festooned on most modern cars, but also the fact that under the skin it is based on an 8 year old ICE aimed at (initially anyway) the Indian market.

Electric Car Depreciation - sammy1

My main concern like most in picking up a 3year old car any car is that the warranty as ended. So the purchase largely comes down to confidence in the product. Sure the odd engine or gearbox can fail but these are now very reliable.. With your EV the battery has a warranty but does this mean tying your car to the dealership for its life to preserve said warranty. Battery expires and it is farewell to the car. Getting an ICE engine changed is not an easy job but doable by most decent garages. How so changing your EV battery. I would imagine that few outlets outside main dealers have the equipment and the know how as to how to remove such a heavy battery. Also dealers probably have a monopoly on the supply of the batteries and the disposal of the old one Just how much of this might be going on we do not know but cost of £14k for a battery for ""ordinary" cars and £29k for premium. There may well be a second hand market for batteries but if insurance companies are writing off EVs with compromised battery compartments how reliable will these be? With people struggling to pay their mortgages you need a whole lot of faith to go second hand EV. Hardly surprising that depreciation is very high. The Gov needs to slow down the date of the changeover

Electric Car Depreciation - Ethan Edwards

Sammy it's apparent that you've swallowed the propaganda about EV battery longevity. Even the numerous 2012 Tesla M S cars still on 12yo batteries has washed over you unnoticed. You still cling to scare stories about Leaf batteries losing capacity, even though they remain the only air cooled pack on the market. Liquid cooling being the solution to their degradation issues. Ok let's just see where we are with this in ten years time. Seems nothing is going to dissuade you from believing the myths but evidence. Ok well my 50kwh pack is doing great at two years old, so we'll see won't we.

Just out of interest my 2yo ev ought to have a 201m range....last week I got 4.9m per kwh again.....take the usable 45kwh multiply by 4.9 that's 220m range, so my loss in two years has been to gain 19 miles. How does the oil companies propaganda square that then?

Electric Car Depreciation - sammy1

Just another EV driver with more money than sense to buy one of these cars. 220 miles eh very impressive, looking forward to winter are we? I wonder why so many CEOs are being more truthful now after so much hype of how green these cars really are. They use 75% more carbon just to build them and the carbon used to dig thousands of tons of ore just to build one battery is conveniently ignored. VWs own admission is that it takes 75000 miles before their Golf E begins to pay back the carbon released in the making. I am not at all interested in this rubbish regarding carbon but a lot are. Ray Massey, a very respected Motoring journalist, has his reservations about the rush to EVs. Yes they are probably a sound product but the reality is their range and the charging network is still not there. So please don't single me out by name as I am one of millions sceptical by the shear practicality of EV cars and hybrids for that matter.

I am posting Ray Massey's post as your comments have triggered it so spare the groans as there are a few home truths in it. He only has a small column in the DM and has no axe to grind indeed EVs are his bread and butter so to speak!

RAY MASSEY: This rush to EVs could see the wheels come off Britain's motor industry | Daily Mail Online

Electric Car Depreciation - Andrew-T

I am not at all interested in this rubbish regarding carbon but a lot are.

Sammy, you quite clearly ARE 'interested' in this rubbish, as you often remark on it. I think you mean you are not persuaded by any of it ? Neither am I, by the way.

Electric Car Depreciation - Ethan Edwards

Looking forward to Winter? I've done two of them already. What's so special about more of them then? More evidence your theories don't stand up to reality mate.

Sorry not biting about carbon or green. The only green I care about is saving 250 quid a month not buying petrol. Works for me as I home charge only, have a nightly window of dirt cheap power and all of my trips including my 75mile commute are within my range. 1.2pence per mile.

Edited by Ethan Edwards on 10/07/2023 at 17:18

Electric Car Depreciation - Ethan Edwards

Looks like my EV has done another Winter then Sammy. Still hasn't disintegrated or immolated itself. Very dull actually it just seems to start stop and go and almost silently too. No oil changes, no rusty exhausts, cracked manifolds or anything. Just no drama at all.

Should I demand a refund because of the lack of drama?

Electric Car Depreciation - mcb100
‘ VWs own admission is that it takes 75000 miles before their Golf E begins to pay back the carbon released in the making.’

Long since discredited figures on a car that went out of production in 2020.
As production processes get cleaner and greener, we’re down to c16,000 miles now.
Electric Car Depreciation - pd

For all that values have taken a knock a Tesla Model 3 still retains 55-60% of its new list price at 3 years old ar 30-40k. Even at higher mileages it is knocking on 50%.

That is actually historically very, very good compared to similar segment cars such as 3 Series, A4 etc.

In fact the Model 3's values seem to be be hit less by high mileage than a BMW/Audi whatever which rather implies the market sentiment is that they are quite happy to buy older/leggy ones.

Electric Car Depreciation - sammy1

The Golf E has only recently been discontinued and the new VW CEO made his remarks just recently. The link below is old but little has changed in the mining and production of the batteries which is the main carbon negative.. The whole Idea of switching from fossil fuels is to save carbon but it a big lie being bandied by Gov and big business to grow new industries which are coming through in too much of a rush before long term impacts are analysed. Nothing new here everything humans touch has an adverse effect on the environment around them Below is VWs early take on EVs carbon liability. Don't suppose much has changed. Meanwhile China will flood the world with cheap battery cars at a considerable cost to the environment and the UK will not care because the CO2 is not happening here

VW's carbon footprint: the E-Golf is “clean” from 125,000 km | CAR ENGINE AND SPORT (topgear-autoguide.com)

Electric Car Depreciation - badbusdriver

The link below is old but little has changed in the mining and production of the batteries which is the main carbon negative

While mining for the precious metals needed for batteries is obviously a bad thing, the anti-EV brigade shouting specifically about this is nothing but hypocrisy.

93.57% of everything mined from the Earth is iron.

6.39% is industrial metals.

The remaining 0.04% is technology and precious metals, that is where EV batteries come in.

Funny how the anti-EV brigade have no problem with all the other stuff mined from the Earth (in vastly more quantities)................

Electric Car Depreciation - Adampr

The link below is old but little has changed in the mining and production of the batteries which is the main carbon negative

While mining for the precious metals needed for batteries is obviously a bad thing, the anti-EV brigade shouting specifically about this is nothing but hypocrisy.

93.57% of everything mined from the Earth is iron.

6.39% is industrial metals.

The remaining 0.04% is technology and precious metals, that is where EV batteries come in.

Funny how the anti-EV brigade have no problem with all the other stuff mined from the Earth (in vastly more quantities)................

Not hugely relevant, but I always like the little snippet that all of the platinum ever mined would fit comfortably into the average living room.

Electric Car Depreciation - Andrew-T

<< I always like the little snippet that all of the platinum ever mined would fit comfortably into the average living room. >>

A nice statistic, but it says nothing about how many tons of spoil have to be extracted to get a few grams of platinum - or gold, or gallium, or lithium for that matter !

Electric Car Depreciation - sammy1

<< I always like the little snippet that all of the platinum ever mined would fit comfortably into the average living room. >>

A nice statistic, but it says nothing about how many tons of spoil have to be extracted to get a few grams of platinum - or gold, or gallium, or lithium for that matter !

Thousands of tons of waste to get the lithium and other metals for ONE battery and how much energy is involved with the mining and shipping

Electric Car Depreciation - mcb100
‘ The whole Idea of switching from fossil fuels is to save carbon but it a big lie being bandied by Gov and big business to grow new industries’

You’re clearly entitled to your opinion, and I’ll stick to mine. Any number of learned articles will show an EV having massively lower whole life carbon emissions.
As an example, Ford have recently launched the Lightning F150 Electric in the US. It’s about the least efficient EV available. But to match it for whole life emissions, an equivalent petrol version would have to average 85mpg.
As battery manufacturers continue to decarbonise their production process and supply chains, the crossover point will only head one direction, and that’s to an earlier point.
There really is no denying that the move to electrify transport will lessen carbon emissions.
We now need countries like Poland, Estonia and Greece to lessen their reliance on coal for energy production and move more towards renewables.
Electric Car Depreciation - Terry W

The killer issue in the EV battery payback period is that many/most of the materials can be recycled at the end of their useful lives (which does consume energy)

Fossil fuels, once burnt, are gone for good.

Basing a judgement on only the first user of the batteries may show a more limited saving in emissions - but still a significant saving. Recycled and embedded in new batteries the overall emissions may be closer to 10-20% than 50%+.

Electric Car Depreciation - sammy1

""Fossil fuels, once burnt, are gone for good.""

This is a very simplistic statement. The world would not be where it is now without Fossil fuels and will not be going much further without them. The amount of energy tied up within oil and gas cannot be discounted and green energy alone will not drive the main needs of the planet for many years and will always be a percentage depending where you live and what your needs are.. Once burnt they are gone for good but are they, the resulting gases are there to be used by other life forms and in 10s of thousands of years they in turn will make a contribution to evolution. For many decades know the flare offs from oil and gas reserves have just happened as another ""waste"" to the energy industry. Scientists are now waking up to what these are doing to the planet. Energy is a dirty business and so called green is as bad as fossil. Why is it called green I wonder?

Electric Car Depreciation - mcb100
‘ and so called green is as bad as fossil ‘

You can’t make a statement like that without backing it up.
Electric Car Depreciation - FP

"‘ and so called green is as bad as fossil ‘

You can’t make a statement like that without backing it up."

I think this discussion has got to the point where evidence and rational argument have gone out of the window.

As we all know, you don't need facts and logic if you have a strong enough belief you're right.

Edited by FP on 10/07/2023 at 21:29

Electric Car Depreciation - Andrew-T

As we all know, you don't need facts and logic if you have a strong enough belief you're right.

Some simple facts I believe you may find it hard to disagree with :

Global population is increasing ; most nations expect, or at least hope, that their standard of living will improve ; it is clear that a century of greater fossil-fuel use has increased atmospheric CO2 levels, causing temperatures to rise.

No-one wants to limit the travelling they enjoy doing, so desperate searches are being made for other ways to continue - by selling the idea of EVs being 'clean', which they are, at least where they are being driven.

All these activities, and the processes associated with them, consume energy in all sorts of ways. Many of those occur somewhere overseas, where we can happily ignore them.

Electric Car Depreciation - sammy1

""No-one wants to limit the travelling they enjoy doing, so desperate searches are being made for other ways to continue - by selling the idea of EVs being 'clean', which they are, at least where they are being driven.

All these activities, and the processes associated with them, consume energy in all sorts of ways. Many of those occur somewhere overseas, where we can happily ignore them

A-T we agree on this. The energy extended to produce an EV is happily ignored and for that matter anything else that is man made. The Carbon footprint of the rich is many times that of the poor who are being penalised to fund the green dream which the rich continually ignore with building their mansions etc while most of the rest live in a smaller more practical residence which even then some struggle to pay for buying or renting. I don't think you infer "" happily ignoring them"" above, but I get the point not in our back yard.

Electric Car Depreciation - mcb100
FleetNews news letter re EV used values.
www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/latest-fleet-news/electri...e
The long and the short is that prices are stabilising, with one or two exceptions that have further to fall.
Electric Car Depreciation - jakegeno

One important thing: when talking about EV depreciation we have to consider specific amount of time. And I believe currently depreciation is going to continue due to several reasons:
1. China manufacturers are lowering the prices what makes other brands to cut prices very fast as well. And if you buy a Model 3 now and Tesla decides to lower its price tomorrow by $5k, than tomorrow nobody is going to pay you for your used Model 3 same amount as you paid, as everyone can buy new car cheaper.
2. Governments still give tax benefits to buyers in different parts of the world and as we can fairly easily transport vehicles that is making the used cars prices drop even more.
3. Technology is developing very fast, so every year we get more range, more efficient batteries in new vehicles. And that makes used cars even cheaper, think of it as PC tech development in 90s.

Here is a rough analysis of EV vs ICE depreciation, it's not perfect, but gives an overview of depreciation between 2021 and 2024: evhicle.org/2024/03/12/car-depreciation-myths-the-.../

Electric Car Depreciation - madf

The analysis of depreciation is US based.. Irrelevant to UK.. where small petrol cars are increasing in value...

Electric Car Depreciation - madf

The analysis of depreciation is US based.. Irrelevant to UK.. where small petrol cars are increasing in value...

Electric Car Depreciation - mcb100
‘The energy extended to produce an EV is happily ignored’

It really isn’t. It’s carefully and methodically accounted for in the data on the environmental impact of EV’s. It’s all out there if you have a look.
And that’s why electrification of transportation is seen as one cog in achieving decarbonisation for the good of the planet.