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Any - Bangernomics & big bills - chesterfieldhouse

l love the idea of bangernomics. Getting hold of a car for 1k, or thereabouts & running it for as as long as is possible on minimal outlay.

l've always bought cars (not particularly bangers) with functionality in mind, not just in terms of reliability, but doing the job they were built for. So when the four kids were small we had a people carrier, when l needed a car for work l also had a lease car & latterly, now there's just my wife & l (plus two dogs) to consider, l have an SUV. l've also always serviced the vehicles we've had & hence they've repaid us with good reliability.

l love cars & often just have a look through Autotrader & think what this & that car would be like to own & drive. Which brings me back to bangernomics. We all know that condition at this price is everything & Japanese brands, on the whole, tend to have the best reputation for long in the tooth reliability. But what about things like, for example, cam belts? If you went down this route & picked up something that was reasonable, but the cam belt schedule was due (or overdue) would you:

Have it done, even though the cost could be half what you paid for the car?

Drive it until it went bang?

Just hope you get away with it until you changed to another?

Choose a chain cam? (even though this is no guarantee it won't have problems)

Believe that bangernomics & big bills don't go together?

Of course there may be other big bills, such as a clutch, that could equally be of consideration. But in my driving life, l've only had one clutch replaced & that was a long time ago.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Alby Back
If your only and regularly needed car needs a complex repair that might take time and money, it becomes quite difficult, but if you have easy and free access to other vehicles then it's less of a worry. You can afford, in those circumstances, to shop around, or wait until it's affordable if needs be, or even attempt to fix it yourself if you have the skills, knowledge and space.

We tend be a "fix and keep" family. But, if one of our cars was to be off the road for a week or three it wouldn't be too difficult to manage.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Steveieb
Hands up, I got caught badly with an Audi A2 Tdi 90 which really appealed after meeting the owners club at Kimbolton Motor Show.
Loved the concept and the look of the car but it turned out to be a nightmare with something small always going wrong.But it so difficult to decide when to call it a day!
Parts were exclusive to the A2 and very expensive.
My friend who was at one time customer service manager at Audi warned me not to get one and now I learn they have a dreadful name in the trade for being fragile.
Replaced it with a Toyota Corolla petrol 2003 so fingers crossed !
Any - Bangernomics & big bills - madf

Never buy a car with a dodgy reputation.

I looked at A2s when they came out , and then 3-4 years later. The Owners Club comments put me off. bought a used Yaris D4D which we still have (it's 18 years old) . Nothing really serious or expensive (>£50) has gone wrong. Lots of cheap spares new and s'hand..

Cambelts? spawn of the devil. (Yaris is chain driven and has its original drive belt - like new.)

Do proper research and it's easy

(Lexus 400H was tempting but secondary subframes rust badly at 15 years old)

Jaguars.Land Rovers, Renaults, some Peugeots, BMWs /Mercedes are all no go areas.. I loathe GM so no Vauxhalls, and Fords too common.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - John F

Bangernomics and big bills are mutually exclusive. A 'banger' should be bought for a few hundred pounds and discarded as soon as anything costing more than about fifty pounds needs replacing.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - edlithgow

Bangernomics and big bills are mutually exclusive. A 'banger' should be bought for a few hundred pounds and discarded as soon as anything costing more than about fifty pounds needs replacing.

That's why I'm not really a bangernomicist, though I am a bangernaut, It requires a level of mechanical ruthlessness that I find hard to muster.

i.pinimg.com/originals/6e/e9/2d/6ee92deacb73423e87...g

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - chesterfieldhouse

Bangernomics and big bills are mutually exclusive. A 'banger' should be bought for a few hundred pounds and discarded as soon as anything costing more than about fifty pounds needs replacing.

That's why I'm not really a bangernomicist, though I am a bangernaut, It requires a level of mechanical ruthlessness that I find hard to muster.

i.pinimg.com/originals/6e/e9/2d/6ee92deacb73423e87...g

That's what l would find difficult. l know cars are inanimate objects but the cartoon sums it up , l don't think l have the ruthless streak either.

First "people carrier" we had was a Toyota Space Cruiser, which was really a converted van, but it took the family all over the country over a 10 year period. Rust got it in the end. Sad to drive it to the scrap yard after all that.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Trilogy.

and Fords too common.

Mondeos are a lot less common than you'd think. If you want common, go for a BMW 3 series.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - edlithgow

You let yourself down rather with the last comment, not because I'm a Ford fan, but because, unlike the rest of your post, it doesn't make any sense.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - edlithgow

Cambelts? spawn of the devil.

OK on a non-interference engine.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - barney100

Mate is bangernomics and then some. Self employed builder etc he's had a Meriva, cost peanuts, lasted 3 years with little problem , same with a Mercedes E class estate for £500, bit of rust and being petrol a bit thirsty but went on and on. Same with his present S type Jag estate, this one cost a lot, all of £800 and has kept him in business for 4 years or so with little trouble.Thing about bangers is even if you spend a hefty grand and the thing falls apart someone will give you a few quid for spares or scrap.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Trilogy.

Same with his present S type Jag estate, this one cost a lot, all of £800 and has kept him in business for 4 years or so with little trouble.Thing about bangers is even if you spend a hefty grand and the thing falls apart someone will give you a few quid for spares or scrap.

I'd love to see an S-Type estate. Amazed he got one for £800, must be as rare as hen's teeth!

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - mcb100

Rarer than that - there never was an S-Type estate.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - barney100

That Jag based on the Mondeo. Twin headlights. I aren't a Jag expert so probably got the letter wrong.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Metropolis.

If it's an estate it is the X-type, which is based on the Mondeo. The S-Type is based on a Lincoln LS if i recall correctly.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Trilogy.

Drive it until it went bang?

Just hope you get away with it until you changed to another?

Choose a chain cam? (even though this is no guarantee it won't have problems)

Believe that bangernomics & big bills don't go together?

Of course there may be other big bills, such as a clutch, that could equally be of consideration. But in my driving life, l've only had one clutch replaced & that was a long time ago.

For me a clutch going is just part of general maintenance, once you get to sub £1,000 cars, as is a cambelt. Only you can decide how big a bill it would take for you to part with a car.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Terry W

Assuming that on purchase the car is in reasonably smooth working order, expected mileage may be an issue.

If you only do (say) 3k a year, you may go several years with no material spend. Largest spend may be a couple of tyres, battery or a partial exhaust. Even if it goes past its change by date, you could risk not changing a cambelt.

Do 15k a year and all bets are off. Almost anything could fail within a few months of purchase.

Bangernomics only really works at the sub £1000 level. Below that price, a major failure makes the scrap decision easy. The problem area is the £1-3k level where scrap is a reluctant expensive option, and makes repair bills in the high £100s unavoidable.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Andrew-T

The thing about a cambelt change is that its cost is predictable (at least for each model). It is faulty logic to compare that with the value of the car, which may be scrap in real terms but with significant sentimental value to the owner.

True bangernomics says that unless a necessary repair costs very little, the car is scrapped and replaced with something similar. When the car is 'fixed' regularly it has crossed the boundary into becoming a family pet. If reliable transport is essential the banger should be a second car.

But as your question focuses on the cambelt, you need to find out whether the car is for sale because a belt change is overdue ?

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Ted66

My Fiat Bravo which I have owned for seven years is now worth only scrap value at 172000 miles. My cambelt is due at 188000 miles. Wont be getting it done again so I will hope for the best if it makes it past that figure. Aiming for 200000 miles before I get rid, unless a big bill finishes it before then. Still on original clutch, turbo, exhaust etc so it might well do.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Trilogy.

I kept my 1998 Skoda Octavia TDI to 222,500 miles. Only scrapped because it had several niggly things wrong with it topped off by needing a cambelt/water pump, full service and 4 new tyres. I'd bought it seven years earlier, with 94,000 miles done, and felt I'd had my money's worth out of it.

Best cars to buy for bangernomics are those with low owners and full service history, preferably backed up by receipts. Forget high owner and no, or little, service history cars.

Edited by Trilogy. on 15/01/2021 at 18:38

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Moodyman

Bangernomics works well if you are prepared to get your hands dirty and have a go at fixing things. Then you can run your car for a long time on peanuts.

I run a 28 year old Corolla and would not hesitate to drive to the South of Spain tomorrow. Buy well and look after it.

Our main family car is a petrol Octavia 2005 bought two years ago. The core of the car is fine, but occasionally throws up small issues. Recently rear windscreen wiper motor gave up. Common fault with VAG from that period. Took everything apart, cleaned, greased innards and reinstalled. Often this is a free fix, but in my case, no joy. So, left all boot trims off and ordered replacement new motor off eBay for £40. Fitting tomorrow hopefully.

A garage will charge £150 for this job whilst a dealership £200+. Cost me £40 and a couple of hours on a cold Saturday afternoon. If the clean and grease worked, would have cost me nowt.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Andrew-T

... Recently rear windscreen wiper motor gave up. Common fault with VAG from that period. Took everything apart, cleaned, greased innards and reinstalled. Often this is a free fix, but in my case, no joy. So, left all boot trims off and ordered replacement new motor off eBay for £40. Fitting tomorrow hopefully.

That's the way to do it .... A year ago after getting my 306 I replaced a front wiper motor and side mirror, both from Ebay for £35 total. Several other things too for small amounts. It's not in 100% condition yet, but good enough for me at 26 years old.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - chesterfieldhouse

Bangernomics works well if you are prepared to get your hands dirty and have a go at fixing things. Then you can run your car for a long time on peanuts.

I run a 28 year old Corolla and would not hesitate to drive to the South of Spain tomorrow. Buy well and look after it.

Our main family car is a petrol Octavia 2005 bought two years ago. The core of the car is fine, but occasionally throws up small issues. Recently rear windscreen wiper motor gave up. Common fault with VAG from that period. Took everything apart, cleaned, greased innards and reinstalled. Often this is a free fix, but in my case, no joy. So, left all boot trims off and ordered replacement new motor off eBay for £40. Fitting tomorrow hopefully.

A garage will charge £150 for this job whilst a dealership £200+. Cost me £40 and a couple of hours on a cold Saturday afternoon. If the clean and grease worked, would have cost me nowt.

Had exactly the same rear wiper problem on a Seat Alhambra (2001) l was lucky, took it apart, cleaned, greased it & reinstalled & it worked.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - edlithgow

Never really seen the sense of the "repair would cost more than the car is worth" cutoff. So what?

The "market value" is what other people think, which is of little interest unless selling, which I never am.

If I applied that metric I'd never fix anything.

Pure bangernomics is really only applicable to newish cars, which are likely to be expensive to repair (if its possible), but easily replaced with another one.

Older cars are likely to be cheaper to repair (if its possible), but hard to replace, so I take such decisions against the background of a diminishing resource, without thinking about market value.

Market value would kick in again if a car achieved "classic" status, but that has never happened to any of mine while I've had them.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - badbusdriver

That Jag based on the Mondeo. Twin headlights. I aren't a Jag expert so probably got the letter wrong.

That is the X Type, not a bad car at all.

Personally, I think the saloon version looks a bit awkward with the pseudo XJ styling, the estate is a much nicer and more balanced looking car.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Trilogy.

Pure bangernomics is really only applicable to newish cars,

Pure bangernomics and newish goes together as much as fish and chocolate.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Alby Back

Pure bangernomics is really only applicable to newish cars,

Pure bangernomics and newish goes together as much as fish and chocolate.

Aye, well, maybe, but there's two ways to measure age, the first of course terms of how old a vehicle is, but also how much it's been used. I've regularly put 200,000 miles on cars in five years. Some would say that those five year old cars were then bangers. In reality though, they've all done it very easily.
Any - Bangernomics & big bills - edlithgow

Pure bangernomics is really only applicable to newish cars,

Pure bangernomics and newish goes together as much as fish and chocolate.

Well, I explained what I meant. Perhaps you could do the same?

My explanation covered what I meant by newish, which is a relative term. A newish car is likely to be replacable fairly cheaply. I'd say an "ordinary" this century car around 10 years old would still be "newish" to me, and would be typical bangernomics fodder.

To give further context, my current car is oldish (34 years) and isnt readily replacable, so isn't typical bangernomics fodder.

Bangernomics isn't really any different to "ordinary" car ownership. All cars (apart from classics and maybe my oldish cars) are generally viewed as disposable and are disposed of when repair cost exceeds the value of the vehicle. Insurance companies write off new cars all the time. Bangernomicists just do it with lower value vehicles

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - sammy1

Bangernomics is all very well if you are mechanically minded. But do any owners of these old cars consider the SAFETY aspect if they were involved in a collision. If you can afford it give me a modern car with airbags, collapsible steering, and other safety gismos.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Trilogy.

But do any owners of these old cars consider the SAFETY aspect if they were involved in a collision.

Yes, nothing wrong with a MK1 Focus.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - John F

But do any owners of these old cars consider the SAFETY aspect if they were involved in a collision.

Yes, nothing wrong with a MK1 Focus.

And you would be extremely unlucky if its cambelt breaks. Ours is 20yrs old and approaching its design life of 150,000m. But if a cack-handed mechanic had replaced the quality original with a cheapo a few thousand miles ago, .........

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Trilogy.

But do any owners of these old cars consider the SAFETY aspect if they were involved in a collision.

Yes, nothing wrong with a MK1 Focus/Saab/Volvo/Mondeo etc. etc.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - edlithgow

Nope. Doesn't bear thinking about.

Safer than my motorcycles though

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Trilogy.

Nope. Doesn't bear thinking about.

Safer than my motorcycles though

You'll only feel safe in a self driving tank. I'm surprised you dare to leave your house, still, It might be struck by lightning.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Moodyman

I think Safety element is often overplayed by those that have an incentive to sell us new.

How often does the ordinary person crash sufficiently badly to need the multitude of safety equipment? I'm also cyclist and usually do more miles on two wheels than on four. I feel relatively safe in my older cars vs bicycle.

The other thing older cars do, is make you think a bit more about your driving. My Corolla has no airbags, ESC or ABS. So, I'm more cautious in my driving and braking distance. It makes me a better driver.

Edited by Moodyman on 18/01/2021 at 11:37

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Andrew-T

I think Safety element is often overplayed by those that have an incentive to sell us new.

How often does the ordinary person crash sufficiently badly to need the multitude of safety equipment?

Perhaps true. I think people may have been influenced by too much video of horrendous crashes (which I think are now rarer than they were when thick fog was more common) and also by statistics comparing the probabilities of very unlikely events with even less likely ones. I have been a driver for nearly 60 years and have yet to suffer any bodily damage in the few bumps my cars have suffered. No airbag has yet triggered either. Seatbelts may have helped a bit on occasion.

While the addition of crumple zones, airbags and side-impact bars will have 'saved many lives' we can only estimate their real benefit by guessing what might have happened without them. They have certainly helped make cars bigger and heavier - which itself contributes to heavier impacts, a bit of a vicious circle.

Discuss ?

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Engineer Andy

I think Safety element is often overplayed by those that have an incentive to sell us new.

How often does the ordinary person crash sufficiently badly to need the multitude of safety equipment?

Perhaps true. I think people may have been influenced by too much video of horrendous crashes (which I think are now rarer than they were when thick fog was more common) and also by statistics comparing the probabilities of very unlikely events with even less likely ones. I have been a driver for nearly 60 years and have yet to suffer any bodily damage in the few bumps my cars have suffered. No airbag has yet triggered either. Seatbelts may have helped a bit on occasion.

While the addition of crumple zones, airbags and side-impact bars will have 'saved many lives' we can only estimate their real benefit by guessing what might have happened without them. They have certainly helped make cars bigger and heavier - which itself contributes to heavier impacts, a bit of a vicious circle.

Discuss ?

I think that the original (not this thread) question on that score was someone (it may have been HJ himself back in the day on his DT column on Saturdays) arguing - maybe sacastically - that driving would be far safer had all steering wheels got a large metal spike in the middle pointing towards the driver.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - edlithgow

Well yes, But you are in one of the safest countries in terms of driver behaviour. In somewhere more Third Worldy, like, say, the USA, the risks are more in your face.

Only takes a moments inattention

tw.forumosa.com/t/a-timely-reminder/69356/6

But I suppose I was forgetting my own distinction with my "doesn't bear thinking about" comment. The Skywing looks, feels,(especially since I removed the carpets and most of the plastic trim) and is, tinny, but it is an oldish econobox, not a typical banger,

The 1998 Honda Accord I've been driving (and fiddling with) recently is still older than your typical banger but feels almost SAAB-solid,

I doubt there have been big gains in passive safety in the last 10 years, and unless advanced composites were used on a large scale I doubt such gains would be possible at practical weights, so your typical banger is probably about as safe as it gets.

The active stuff is probably another matter, but the ambiguous early results from ABS suggest it will be a while before the jury gets back on that.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - John F

Bangernomics isn't really any different to "ordinary" car ownership.

O-o-o-h yes it is. The fundamental criterion for 'bangernomics' is a minimum possible capital 'investment'. I think it is generally agreed that this should not exceed a figure obtained by dividing the cost of a fairly basic new car by the number of years of its expected lifespan at say 10,000 miles a year, i.e. around fifteen. This gives a figure of around £1000, as mentioned in my short post yesterday, which lacked this rather wordy explanation.

Edited by John F on 16/01/2021 at 12:51

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Avant

Perhaps a more basic definition might be that the right price in bangernomics terms is the amount you can stomach writing off if the car collapses in an irreparable heap.

Everyone is different, but I suspect the average would coincide with John's figure of £1,000 max.

Edited by Avant on 16/01/2021 at 14:00

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - chesterfieldhouse

Really interesting to read peoples views on this. l'm in a position with a 55 plate Toyota RAV4 D-4D that is showing signs of corrosion underneath (Mot Nov 20) that l'm still debating what to do.

After good advise on here l'll be going petrol, probably an estate & its narrowed down to a Focus, Mondeo, Astra, Octavia or Mazda 6 (5k ish budget)

Alternatively, l may just have the RAV repaired, as the mileage is good, it looks good & l know the car. Also, as others have mentioned, during these times getting hold of a car isn't easy.

The other option is to go bangernomics, mainly just because l can. Though it would be the only car, we're both now retired & if it did go bang & l had to source another it would be an inconvenience at best. There is however, the nagging doubt that it would go bang at the worst possible time; but that can happen to any car.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - John F

Really interesting to read peoples views on this. l'm in a position with a 55 plate Toyota RAV4 D-4D that is showing signs of corrosion underneath (Mot Nov 20) that l'm still debating what to do.

Alternatively, l may just have the RAV repaired, as the mileage is good, it looks good & l know the car.

If you know and like it, I'd have thought you would want to keep it. I should think virtually all 55 plate RAV4s show 'signs of corrosion underneath'. Can't be too serious if it passed the MoT. Why not arrest it with a wire brush and a can of quality black paint which can be applied straight onto a rusty surface? It can be a satisfying way to occupy a sunny summer afternoon. Grease or paint the brake pipes as well while you're under it - replacing them is a lucrative source of income for garages if they spot a bit of surface corrosion.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Alby Back
Edd China would know what to do, and he's probably at a bit of a loose end these days...

;-)
Any - Bangernomics & big bills - chesterfieldhouse

Really interesting to read peoples views on this. l'm in a position with a 55 plate Toyota RAV4 D-4D that is showing signs of corrosion underneath (Mot Nov 20) that l'm still debating what to do.

Alternatively, l may just have the RAV repaired, as the mileage is good, it looks good & l know the car.

If you know and like it, I'd have thought you would want to keep it. I should think virtually all 55 plate RAV4s show 'signs of corrosion underneath'. Can't be too serious if it passed the MoT. Why not arrest it with a wire brush and a can of quality black paint which can be applied straight onto a rusty surface? It can be a satisfying way to occupy a sunny summer afternoon. Grease or paint the brake pipes as well while you're under it - replacing them is a lucrative source of income for garages if they spot a bit of surface corrosion.

l may just do that. Though l'll have a chat with the local mechanic first, as the main area of the corrosion (both sides) is the inner suspension mounting area, as well as the front sub-frame. No point in painting over with a rust inhibitor if a better long term repair is cutting out & new metal.

Funny you should mention brake pipes, that was the other advisory.

Edited by chesterfieldhouse on 17/01/2021 at 11:03

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - edlithgow

Why not arrest it with a wire brush and a can of quality black paint which can be applied straight onto a rusty surface?

Why not arrest it with some sunflower oil and an (empty) can of quality beer, which can be applied straight onto a rusty surface?.

bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/coke-can-for-bra.../

Use foil for the brake pipes.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - edlithgow

Bangernomics isn't really any different to "ordinary" car ownership.

O-o-o-h yes it is. The fundamental criterion for 'bangernomics' is a minimum possible capital 'investment'. I think it is generally agreed that this should not exceed a figure obtained by dividing the cost of a fairly basic new car by the number of years of its expected lifespan at say 10,000 miles a year, i.e. around fifteen. This gives a figure of around £1000, as mentioned in my short post yesterday, which lacked this rather wordy explanation.

Like I said, "Bangernomicists just do it with lower value vehicles.". Can't see anything above that contradicts that.

The underlying assumption of disposability, and probably the criterion for it as well (cost of repair < market value) are the same.

Perhaps insurance introduces a bit of a difference. New cars (lets say...er..under 3 years...I don't know much about new stuff, except that its no good) are probably comprehensively insured because its too big a chunk of change to lose, whereas bangers will be 3PFF. That might even be a working definition of a banger, come to think on't.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Steveieb

My A4 1.9 Tdi 130 is in the bangernomics class and is simply a brilliant car and according to members of tge forum one of the best cars that VAG have ever made.

Just one snag, the air con compressor has failed which made the car unusable in the heatwave. The compressor fitted is extremely to source second hand making the repair using a new one over £1000 , as the damaged internal drive pollutes the whole system.

So i fitted some air deflectors and fingers crossed I should be ok until next summer.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Metropolis.

Going to be Captain Obvious for a moment, apologies in advance:

Surely VW don't make the compressor themselves? I know with my Land Rover the compressor is a Nippon Denso unit for example, and by getting the Denso part it is 1/3rd the price of the one with LR stickers on it. Fortunately i havent needed to either way!

EDIT: I had a look on autodoc, assuming yours is a B7, there are a whole range of compressors available starting from £243 including VAT, and other brands I have not heard of for about £160. Could be worth a look, the longer you leave it the more the seals are going to be drying out. I use mine all year. I know people say you need to clear out the system and change a bunch of other parts, but I would take the risk at that money, worst that can happen is you need another compressor.

2nd Edit i forgot the link www.autodoc.co.uk/car-parts/compressor-parts-10454...4 or just enter your reg if i guessed the year wrong.

Edited by Metropolis. on 16/01/2021 at 17:31

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Steveieb

That is brilliant Metropolis .
I have had a quote from a VW specialist for £700 if there is no debris pollution or £1100 if there is and needs purging.

I love the car so it looks as if it’s not written off.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Metropolis.

If you are willing to take a smallish gamble, I would go for one of those OEM compressors, then try just replacing the compressor. Halfords will regas the system for about £50 and that includes evacuating the system using a proper machine. I wonder if the VW specialist knows something that I don't, like is the ac compressor tucked behind a load of other parts that requires the front end of the car to come off? That could be part of the cost.

The specialist is probably worried about metal particles being in the system from the current compressor dying, those particles could kill the new compressor. that is a risk yes, and some say the other parts in the system should be replaced as well to prevent it.

However this is bangernomics, the compressors are cheap, so if it is not much labour to swap the compressors (apart from legally the gas needs to be evacuated properly not just let into the atmosphere but most places advertising regas will have a machine that does this) then you should be good to go.

I agree with you about it being a write off without AC, its all well and good saying opening the windows but that only works at speeds between 10-35mph, any lower and you're just breathing in fumes and any higher and your face will be getting blasted. It is no fun sweating away and in some ways dangerous as you just can't focus. My car has rear ceiling mounted aircon for the non-existent passengers including in the boot. I use it all to ensure I have maximum cooling. A real, luxury I would hate to do without.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - edlithgow


I agree with you about it being a write off without AC,

I wouldn't, but then I'm in Taiwan.

Havn't experienced the inferno of a British Summer in quite a while.

"This is THE SUN's Anvil"

getyarn.io/yarn-clip/dc7a42c8-89e2-4fae-9b6b-3ef68...2

Edited by edlithgow on 18/01/2021 at 00:55

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Metropolis.

Just re-read your post about it being extemely difficult to source, I think your specialist might be taking you for a ride...

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Terry W

Bangernomics may be described as prioritising lowest total costs of private motoring consistent with legal compliance (MoT, insurance, road tax), and acceptable basic levels of safety and reliability..

Performance, comfort, gizmos, brand image etc are all subordinate.

Bear in mind that there are some for who lowest cost is an economic imperative (I have no spare cash), and those for whom bangenomics is a choice (I could afford a bigger better car but I choose not to).

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Andrew-T

<< Perhaps insurance introduces a bit of a difference. New cars (lets say...er..under 3 years...I don't know much about new stuff, except that its no good) are probably comprehensively insured because its too big a chunk of change to lose, whereas bangers will be 3PFF. >>

Actually it may not be. I suppose we own a pair of bangers (aged 13 and 26 years) and I find that the extra cost of Comp insurance is so marginal that I always use it. Presumably the likelihood of the policy having to cover repairs (after the excess is paid) is almost nil as the car will nearly always be written off.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Avant

"Just one snag, the air con compressor has failed which made the car unusable in the heatwave."

Inconvenient perhaps, but not unusable. You're presumably too young to remember cars without AC: for my first 20 years of driving my cars didn't have it.

I remember fondly the quarter-lights that my first three cars had: open it slightly in winter to keep the screen demisted, open it fully in hot weather to give a glorious blast to the face.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Alby Back
...and, beaded seat covers !
Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Alby Back
I lived and worked in Florence in the early '80s. My car was a Cortina with velour seats. It gets properly hot in Tuscany in the summer. Beaded seat covers helped to prevent melting !

Edited by Alby Back on 16/01/2021 at 17:58

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Avant

I'd forgotten beaded seat covers! At least you were exalted enough not to have had a standard-model Cortina with vinyl seats.

My elder son, in his 40s, still remembers an experience at the age of 3, being a combination of a very hot day, vinyl seats and him wearing shorts. Velour seats were a priority for the next car.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - badbusdriver

"Just one snag, the air con compressor has failed which made the car unusable in the heatwave."

Inconvenient perhaps, but not unusable. You're presumably too young to remember cars without AC: for my first 20 years of driving my cars didn't have it.

I remember fondly the quarter-lights that my first three cars had: open it slightly in winter to keep the screen demisted, open it fully in hot weather to give a glorious blast to the face.

Quite right Avant, I think not having AC might be 'a first world problem'!. Though in fairness to Stevie, modern aerodynamic cars don't have very effective 'natural' ventilation because the shape of the car is such to provide as smooth a passage of air over it as is possible!.

I have been cleaning windows for around 11.5 years now and none of the 3 vans I have used during this period have had working AC (the current Caddy does have AC, but it doesn't work, perhaps the same problem as Stevie's A4). And while I can't deny having AC in hotter weather would be nice, it hardly makes the van unusable. That said, the first van, an Iveco Daily, had exceptionally effective ventilation so I didn't pine for AC on that!.

I remember as a child, one summer holiday we borrowed my Grandfathers Hillman Hunter. It was yellow with vinyl seats and it was a very hot summer...................... phew!!.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - John F

"Just one snag, the air con compressor has failed which made the car unusable in the heatwave."

I remember as a child, one summer holiday we borrowed my Grandfathers Hillman Hunter. It was yellow with vinyl seats and it was a very hot summer...................... phew!!.

Eeeee, you were lucky! I remember going across Spain in high summer around 1970 in a friend's French car with t' engine and radiator in t' boot - I think it was a Renault 10. We 'ad ter keep 'eater on max to stop it overheating!

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Steveieb

Must admit the window air deflectors that you see on many VAG cars owned by Eastern European’s do help a little.

I have found that they do help a little and are quite stylish but have a habit of falling off.

The ones I bought for my Corolla Verso manage to jam the electric window mechanism so they have been retired to the loft.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - edlithgow

Must admit the window air deflectors that you see on many VAG cars owned by Eastern European’s do help a little.

I have found that they do help a little and are quite stylish but have a habit of falling off.

The ones I bought for my Corolla Verso manage to jam the electric window mechanism so they have been retired to the loft.

Not sure I know what you mean. I did a search for images and just got those smoked acrylic fairing things that allow you to keep the windows open a crack without rain falling in the car.

www.peterburg.com.tw/images/slider/bg2.jpg

(Fresh air is a bit of a sick joke in Southern Taiwan at this time of year)

Those are pretty standard issue here, (not exclusive to VAG or Eastern Europeans) and I keep meaning to make some. They probably reduce heating when parked. I wouldn't think they'd make that much difference when moving though. Maybe the idea is to reduce wind turbulence, but that doesn't really bother me

What I think MIGHT make a significant difference on some cars, which I havn''t seen here, would be one of those plastic (GRP?) louvred covers you used to see on the sloping rear hatch window of Ford Capris.

i24.photobucket.com/albums/c34/ThinLizzyGOD/My%20C...g

I suggested this on the local foreigner forum and a Prius owner reckoned it might cut his fuel consumption significantly.

Should be silvery though, not black.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Metropolis.

We have been so behind on in-car features in this country and are only now really catching up with the Americans who have had aircon in cars since 1940 (ok 1940 was luxury but they had the world's first air conditioned bus in 1946 in Texas, naturally) but by 1950 onwards it was increasingly mainstream for the average joe.

Even UK market cars sold at the turn of the century would frequently not have ac or only as an expensive options, it was one of the novel features of the Korean brands like Daewoo which seemed to fit this extravagance as a matter of course. I think air conditioning is one of those things which you don't need until you have tried it, and then there's no going back.

I know people who still see ac as a status symbol and feel posh sitting in traffic with the windows closed.

Writing this I recall HK spec Rover P6s having a boot mounted air conditioning system that would pump out cold air from the parcel shelf, but then we did always send our best abroad!

In truth I would not buy a car without it, even at banger money unless I was desparate. A maintained and most importantly USED system should last many many years hassle free apart from regassing.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - edlithgow

. I think air conditioning is one of those things which you don't need until you have tried it, and then there's no going back.

Ohhh yes there is.

Mine worked when I got it, but I didn't use it, and now I'd be scared to turn it on, assuming its all dried out and empty and will eat itself..

If you've previously been using a motorcycle (with the associated protective gear) in Taiwan conditions, shirt-sleeved mobility with a roof is loooxewry.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - SLO76
Much depends on what’s available nearby at the time. When shopping for cheap cars you can’t be fussy about make and model. A good, well cared for Corsa or even a Fiat Panda would be better than a neglected Honda Jazz or Toyota Yaris at £1,000. I’d sooner spend £300 doing a timing belt than buy a poorly maintained car with a chain too. I’ve run loads of cheapo cars over the years, I get a buzz from beating the system and saving thousands annually over a dull PCP or contract lease gadget laden modern car.
Any - Bangernomics & big bills - expat

If you are not mechanically handy then another alternative for cheap motoring is to buy a 2 year old car and keep it indefinitely. If it is well looked after it should get 15 or 20 years life. That makes depreciation look trivial. In days gone by you could get an 18 month old ex fleet vehicle for half the new price at auction. Auctions these days seem to be set up with buyers fees etc to deter the private buyer but it was a good deal in the past. I am still running a car that I got that way fifteen years ago and it looks ok for the foreseeable future. My previous car was also ex fleet and I got 25 years out of that. Ok I am in Australia where rust is not the problem that it is in the UK but I still think that the buy a good one cheap, look after it well and keep it long term philosophy is a very cheap way to do motoring even for the UK.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Alby Back
Exactly our approach Expat. We tend to buy the best example we can afford of a car that meets our current and predicted needs and wants, and just keep it.

My wife's Qashqai was bought at 18 months old and is now 13 years old and still going strong. They don't get treated as garden ornaments, they get serviced, MOTd, taxed and tyred on time, and cleaned up about 4 times a year.

The rest of the time they just get used for what they were bought for.
Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Big John

If you are not mechanically handy then another alternative for cheap motoring is to buy a 2 year old car and keep it indefinitely. If it is well looked after it should get 15 or 20 years life. That makes depreciation look trivial. In days gone by you could get an 18 month old ex fleet vehicle for half the new price at auction. Auctions these days seem to be set up with buyers fees etc to deter the private buyer but it was a good deal in the past. I am still running a car that I got that way fifteen years ago and it looks ok for the foreseeable future. My previous car was also ex fleet and I got 25 years out of that. Ok I am in Australia where rust is not the problem that it is in the UK but I still think that the buy a good one cheap, look after it well and keep it long term philosophy is a very cheap way to do motoring even for the UK.

I've sort of done this with my last few cars to cope with a high mileage commute. I've bought cheap at less than two years old , looked after and effectively thrown away after circa 10 years.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Avant

"I think Safety element is often overplayed by those that have an incentive to sell us new.

How often does the ordinary person crash sufficiently badly to need the multitude of safety equipment?

Perhaps true. I think people may have been influenced by too much video of horrendous crashes (which I think are now rarer than they were when thick fog was more common) and also by statistics comparing the probabilities of very unlikely events with even less likely ones. I have been a driver for nearly 60 years and have yet to suffer any bodily damage in the few bumps my cars have suffered. No airbag has yet triggered either. Seatbelts may have helped a bit on occasion.

While the addition of crumple zones, airbags and side-impact bars will have 'saved many lives' we can only estimate their real benefit by guessing what might have happened without them. They have certainly helped make cars bigger and heavier - which itself contributes to heavier impacts, a bit of a vicious circle.

Discuss ?"

Just bringing this down to the bottom of the thread to save people looking for it.

My personal view is that however careful a driver you are yourself, there's always the chance of some idiot losing control of their car and hitting you. It could happen any time - and if it did I think I'd be glad of all the protection my car could offer me.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Andrew-T

Avant, as this is now fairly far off topic, it might be better to start a new thread if you want a discussion to follow ?

I don't put my record down to being an unusually careful driver, perhaps a fortunate one, but more likely one who was able to avoid much commuting to work by living within 15 minutes walk. Funnily enough after early retirement I did some 20-minute commuting for a few years.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - sammy1

My personal view is that however careful a driver you are yourself, there's always the chance of some idiot losing control of their car and hitting you. It could happen any time - and if it did I think I'd be glad of all the protection my car could offer me.

Indeed. Accidents are happening all the time caused by drink and drugs as well speed ,not paying attention, bald tyres, mobile phones, drivers going the wrong way on duel carriageways, reckless driving, the list goes on.

Thankfully the annual MOT test helps reduce the risk of accidents by mechanical failure.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Metropolis.

Coming back to the main topic of this thread, I think the core idea (to me at least) of bangernomics is that you buy cars that are 1 MOT away from the scrapheap, and when that MOT or breakdown occurs, you don't repair it you just scrap it. That's the nomic side of bangernomics. It is not usually a voluntary situation, many people are continually skint and as a result a banger is all they can afford.

Preventative maintenance and obeying service schedules (including timing belts) tend to be ignored out of necessity. The car has probably had 7 or 8 previous owners and is on its last legs, if it's not the cambelt it will be something else and these people don't have the resources to do otherwise.

Bangernomics, like any economic system has its downturns too, and a repair might be forced upon the owner where they have no other options, but it will be gone soon after as a lost cause.

If you are spending on repairs and keeping the car going through thick and thin, you are not engaging in bangernomics, you are just driving a banger.

Owning an old banger and engaging in bangernomics are two separate things in my opinion.

Edited by Metropolis. on 18/01/2021 at 17:43

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - edlithgow

If you are spending on repairs and keeping the car going through thick and thin, you are not engaging in bangernomics, you are just driving a banger.

Owning an old banger and engaging in bangernomics are two separate things in my opinion.

Long thread...I think I said that in post number 6

"I'm not really a bangernomicist, though I am a bangernaut"

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - John F

....you are not engaging in bangernomics, you are just driving a banger.

Owning an old banger and engaging in bangernomics are two separate things in my opinion.

There is no such thing as an old banger now. Gone are the days of rusty brake pipes, seized calipers, bald tyres, lopsided suspension and clouds of smoke from a noisy exhaust. Thanks to the MoT a twenty year old car is possibly not much more likely to crash or break down from mechanical failure as a five year old. The average age of my two cars is 27yrs (40 and 15).

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - edlithgow

. Gone are the days of rusty brake pipes, seized calipers, bald tyres, lopsided suspension and clouds of smoke from a noisy exhaust.

Check (fixed. Aluminium foil and sunflower oil)

Check (fixed. Strip, clean and rebuild with PTFE tape wrap on the pins. No new parts were harmed re-making these calipers)

Check (fixed, but I might reinstate them as dry season slicks)

Check (On the Accord, which I'm not fixing. Skywing sits level)

Check (On the Accord temporarily, when I was using brake fluid to clean the EGR path. Took a long time to clear)

Living History. Should be on Discovery Channel.

Edited by edlithgow on 20/01/2021 at 00:29

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - chesterfieldhouse

Coming back to the main topic of this thread, I think the core idea (to me at least) of bangernomics is that you buy cars that are 1 MOT away from the scrapheap, and when that MOT or breakdown occurs, you don't repair it you just scrap it. That's the nomic side of bangernomics. It is not usually a voluntary situation, many people are continually skint and as a result a banger is all they can afford.

Preventative maintenance and obeying service schedules (including timing belts) tend to be ignored out of necessity. The car has probably had 7 or 8 previous owners and is on its last legs, if it's not the cambelt it will be something else and these people don't have the resources to do otherwise.

Bangernomics, like any economic system has its downturns too, and a repair might be forced upon the owner where they have no other options, but it will be gone soon after as a lost cause.

If you are spending on repairs and keeping the car going through thick and thin, you are not engaging in bangernomics, you are just driving a banger.

Owning an old banger and engaging in bangernomics are two separate things in my opinion.

l see where you're coming from & can appreciate the difference between your description of running a banger & bangernomics however, l'm not so sure it's a case of 1 years mot & then scrap it. If bangernomics is from the perspective of being financially on a shoestring & you have picked up a car for say 1k, with a few advisories, come mot time & your fairly confident it may get through, or perhaps need £50 - £100 spent on it; this maybe more attractive than having to shell out another 1k.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Alby Back
Guess it depends on how you choose to define these things. I have a close friend who has been driving since he was 17 and is now 64. So 47 years. He has always had a car, but is still only on his third. Bought them all nearly new and ran the first two until they were scrap. The third one is now 15 or something years old, tired, but still going. He will run that until it won't go, and replace it with something new or nearly new.

Is that a form of bangernomics?
Any - Bangernomics & big bills - chesterfieldhouse
Guess it depends on how you choose to define these things. I have a close friend who has been driving since he was 17 and is now 64. So 47 years. He has always had a car, but is still only on his third. Bought them all nearly new and ran the first two until they were scrap. The third one is now 15 or something years old, tired, but still going. He will run that until it won't go, and replace it with something new or nearly new. Is that a form of bangernomics?

Though it's a good example Alby, of economic motoring, l personally wouldn't class this as bangernomics, for two reasons. Firstly, the initial financial outlay being a nearly new car & secondly, in those first years, said cars could hardly be described as bangers.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Andrew-T
Guess it depends on how you choose to define these things. .... Is that a form of bangernomics?

In the simplest terms I think a Bangernomist would try to avoid any big outlay on transport. Ignoring the unavoidable (in principle) cost of tax, insurance and fuel, that means buying cheap to minimise depreciation, wisely to minimise tax and insurance, and shrewdly to forestall possible expensive repairs. Buying nearly-new doesn't really fit that scenario. It may even be possible to own such a well-kept car that it is worth a polish from time to time.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - chesterfieldhouse

ln terms of old bangers & the safety issue.............l see it in terms of your view on insurance policies. l know someone who chooses to only pay for compulsory car insurance. He's willing to take the risk of his house falling down, flooded or a theft, pet insurance or any other insurance you care to mention.

It's the same with bangers & those cars laden with safety technology. You pay a premium just in case.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - sammy1

There is an example being posted on the tech forum now with a 17year old Golf. Apparently the gearbox needs to come out to remove the sump. Final bill will not be cheap!

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - chesterfieldhouse

There is an example being posted on the tech forum now with a 17year old Golf. Apparently the gearbox needs to come out to remove the sump. Final bill will not be cheap!

Ah yes. In this case, from a bangernomics perspective, you just wouldn't have it repaired. As you say, the cost would be prohibitive.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Trilogy.

There is an example being posted on the tech forum now with a 17year old Golf. Apparently the gearbox needs to come out to remove the sump. Final bill will not be cheap!

Ah yes. In this case, from a bangernomics perspective, you just wouldn't have it repaired. As you say, the cost would be prohibitive.

Depends what the vehicle is worth.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Andrew-T

<< In this case, from a bangernomics perspective, you just wouldn't have it repaired. As you say, the cost would be prohibitive.

Depends what the vehicle is worth. >>

It's not worth much, by definition. Some cheap repairs are feasible, but less cheap ones would trigger a scrap-and-replace exercise.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Moodyman

There is an example being posted on the tech forum now with a 17year old Golf. Apparently the gearbox needs to come out to remove the sump. Final bill will not be cheap!

I can believe it. Upthread I alluded to running a Corolla and an Octavia. I do as much maintenance myself, unless I need specialist equipment in which case, cars go to a backstreet garage.

Toyota's reliability is fabled, but another area Toyota excel at is ease of maintenance. Where Toyota will use regular nuts and bolts, VAG use hex and torx bolts or even worse, rivets. I helped a friend change the radiator on their Toyota in 30 minutes from start to finish. On my Octavia the whole of the front end had to come off and it took us the best part of a day.

One local mechanic I often use, turned the job down on the Octavia because of the faff. His words were on the lines of "you won't pay what I want to charge, and I won't do it for the price you're prepared to pay".

After completing it myself, I can see why.

Edited by Moodyman on 19/01/2021 at 21:27

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - edlithgow

ln terms of old bangers & the safety issue.............l see it in terms of your view on insurance policies. l know someone who chooses to only pay for compulsory car insurance. He's willing to take the risk of his house falling down, flooded or a theft, pet insurance or any other insurance you care to mention.

It's the same with bangers & those cars laden with safety technology. You pay a premium just in case.

Not really comparable.

The thing about insurance is, someone who's job it is to get the sums right, has calculated your premium so that they are statistically going to make money out of you.

This means it can be evaluated purely on a financial basis, and, more clearly than most commercial transactions, it is on average guaranteed to be a bad deal.

Life and limb threats are not so simply evaluated, and thus are not really comparable

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Small Fish

I've 'accidentally' ended up in a bangernomics scenario (2003 Seat Leon Cupra 1.8t ) which we bought when it was 3 years old and on 25k miles...

It's just kept on going with minimal costs and it seems silly to replace a car that's still great to drive and has never let us down - currently on 147000 miles, in 15 years we've had the expected perishables and a couple of annoying things like a failed electric window and a temp sensor.

In terms of future big bills - i'd always imagined that the car would go out with a bang and cam belt , clutch/gearbox or turbo would pack in... and saying farewell would be a no brainer.

The reality seems a slow accumulation of niggling smaller things we've put off addressing is just as likely an end scenario. Exhaust is corroded - as are brake discs - dog has chewed one of the rear seat belts... we'll need 2 tyres soon... we're playing 'roulette' with overdue cam belt... Service and MOT plus up to £300 PA in bills seems 'worth it' because we like and trust the car - but any more would be a tough call as car has emotional value but negligible cash value!

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - Terry W

Two ways to reduce the cost of personal transport (other than buy a bike or stay at home):

  • conventional bangernomics - "buy a cheap car" and run it until a big bill kills it
  • buy a fairly new car, don't abuse it, service regularly, keep it 15+ years

Buy a cheap car means that you may need to accept fairly regular modest bills. A large one simply means junk it and look for another.

Buy fairly new for (say) £12k, keep it for 15 years costs ~ £700 a year depending on final value. Main benefit is that for the first 5-10 years hassles should be limited.

Not much different to conventional bangernomics where a £1000 banger may last 3 years and repairs ~ £300 year. But is does help if you have the £12k to spend in the first place.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - edlithgow

.. Service and MOT plus up to £300 PA in bills seems 'worth it' because we like and trust the car - but any more would be a tough call as car has emotional value but negligible cash value!

Why does this matter? I know its the usual yardstick applied, but I don't get it.

Surely a more appropriate yardstick would be the replacement cost, but even that is not the whole story.

If you replace it you'll probably have to get a newer car, which may well not be as reliable and is likely to be less maintainable, because that is how they make them.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - sammy1

It is not difficult buying a car for £1k or even less. But if say you have to commute say 50 miles a day instead of driving within 5miles from home, then your logic of what you might buy needs a different outlook. On the longer commute you would place more consideration on perceived reliability and possibly MPG. You would also have more tyre wear and a greater need for servicing. Whilst a banger might cope with high miles I think the average driver would not be resting easy.

Owning an old car you often tend to just go with the flow and take the expense as it comes until something happens to write it off. As a lad with my first bike which I paid for, things would wear out on a gradual basis. I can remember replacing the chain. endless cotter pins, the hub the pedals wheels etc. not even thinking of changing the whole bike for another. I have had this attitude my whole life and do not like to part with material things until absolutely necessary. Cars are somewhat different as the sheer expense of labour and parts means that you have to take a more serious and considered view.

Any - Bangernomics & big bills - straggler100

I run a 1996 Peugeot 406. It has the XUDT 1.9 turbo diesel with a Bosch fuel system. The former means it has almost nothing in the way of electronic gubbins, the latter means it will handle running on vegetable oil.

I bought the car in 2011, initially to tow a caravan for a few months. Life happened so I have kept the car, sometimes being parked up for 12+ months at a time while I have been abroad. It has taken me on numerous road trips including several journeys to Poland, five months living on an Alp during a ski season and a circuit around Europe taking me as far as the Russian border in Finland, the arctic circle in Sweden and the Norwegian Atlantic coast.

I have been very lucky and only had one major nasty (the automatic cambelt tensioner) and a few niggles (split steering gaiter, binding front brake). A great advantage of an old car is being able to bodge it eg the heater plug relay was sticking so I replaced it with a secondhand one from a 406 HDI. Not the correct part but works! I think a computerised car would just sulk.

There are several fiddly things wrong with it but nothing serious. The AC works, it's pretty good on fuel and very comfortable over long distances. Unfortunately the tin worm is taking hold so it may not be long for this world. Now I have to decide what will be its replacement. Which is half the fun......