Had a real surprise to find that Lexus do make one unreliable car it’s the IS 220D, which has an awful reputation down to its Diesel engine.

Parts are a horrendous price with my indie reporting cancelling an order for a wheel bearing when he found it cost £1000. Ended up matching the bearing and fitting a pattern part in the hub.

As this is a UK forum I was only quoting my opinion of UK sales. As to reliability I was again referring to my own experience of ownership. To take it further as to overall quality of materials used in todays cars I think that the German cars and in particular BMW are still put together better than Asian cars. As to other remarks about statistic arriving at a conclusion in favour or Jap cars we all know that stats are easily swayed to give one answer that someone wants to project. Witness BJ and his latest advice from SAGE based on stats and algorithms. I am only giving MY opinion on here which seems a crime to some

I think that one of the best guides to reliability and hardiness of the mechanical and electrical bits (not bodyshell) is how many older cars of X or Y make and model do you see on the road?

If you keep their bodyshell in good order, then the rest normally lasts a long time and, aside from some not-so-successful ventures into making diesels, their cars (mine included) just keep going with little intervention.

I'd put good money on most of those non-'classic' cars that are just A to B motors are likely - with a few exceptions - Japanese, despite being outsold by Ford, Vauxhall, VW and BMW by several magintudes back in the 1980s and 90s.

One of the things that drew me to buy Japanese design and preferably made cars was that they used tried and tested designs that were easy to work on and simple to use. My old 90s Micra was a quite simple to do work on, but it rarely needed it. Fast forward 10 years and my then new Mazda3 had almost exactly the same layout for the steering wheel switches and positions of the parts in the engine bay.

On the other side of the coin, some of the European makes seem to delight in constantly changing where things go and how they work - it might look stylish or give that little bit extra mpg or lower emmissions, but often it's at the cost of reliability and easy of working on them. Remember all the stories about French cars and it taking an hour to change a headlamp bulb - but well under 5 minutes in most Oriental designed ones?

Of the German / European makes, I agree that BMW are probably the best on build quality, but I think they are still behind the best of the Japanese. And that's not confusing trim quality with engineering quality or handling/performance.

As this is a UK forum I was only quoting my opinion of UK sales. As to reliability I was again referring to my own experience of ownership. To take it further as to overall quality of materials used in todays cars I think that the German cars and in particular BMW are still put together better than Asian cars. As to other remarks about statistic arriving at a conclusion in favour or Jap cars we all know that stats are easily swayed to give one answer that someone wants to project. Witness BJ and his latest advice from SAGE based on stats and algorithms. I am only giving MY opinion on here which seems a crime to some

Yes, it may well be your opinion, which of course you are entirely entitled to, but your logic seems rather flawed.

First you say that you think it only appears Japanese cars are more reliable because they sell much less cars, therefore there are less to break down. Now regardless of whether or not there are less Japanese cars on our roads, the breakdown figures are worked out as a percentage of how many are sold, hence when you see these reports it says X amount of owners out of 100 have had problems. So the total number of cars sold has nothing to do with it.

Then you say it is based on your own ownership experiences, but unless you have owned a couple of dozen (at least) examples of each car you have owned, it is meaningless. I'm sure there are people out there with a 2.2 diesel Mazda who have had no bother whatsoever, but that don't make it a reliable car!.

And you seem to be under the assumption that because one car has a nicer feel to its interior materials than another, that means it is a better built car. This is also not the case, it just means that the manufacturer has spent more on interior plastics. This has no bearing whatsoever on how well 'put together' the car is, nor whether or not it is more reliable than a car with lower quality interior furnishings.

Then finally, just to cover all the bases, you throw in the conspiracy angle!.

Has Mazda admitted their 2.2 diesel is unreliable or is it in the stats or just a favourite on here same as the DSG anti brigade. I have had a few DSGs excellent boxes

The problem with these engines arose from DPF regeneration issues, otherwise they would probably have been perfectly reliable. The issue was partly Mazda's fault but often due to customers with low mileage/short journey needs incorrectly buying a diesel. To be fair to them, pre-DPF diesels were fine with that use and the superiority of diesel cars was widely believed.

Back in 2009 I bought my first (petrol) Mazda 3. At the time every test by the motoring press lauded the diesel and implied choosing it was a no-brainer compared with the "puny" petrol engines. Mazda had plenty of both available but even the salesman tried to convince me that my 2L petrol was a foolish buy compared with a diesel at a similar price. Fortunately even then there were enough horror stories on the Mazda 3 UK forum to warn me off the diesel. Ten years on Mazda have virtually given up on diesels so it is no longer relevant for new cars.

Has Mazda admitted their 2.2 diesel is unreliable or is it in the stats or just a favourite on here same as the DSG anti brigade. I have had a few DSGs excellent boxes

Can we just clarify, are you actually suggesting that unless the manufacturer admits there is a problem, there isn't one?.

If so, that is a new one for me!!!

Whose breakdown figures do you quote, they wouldn't be by warranty companies by any chance totally meaningless percentages!

No, what Car survey. So do tell, is that fixed?, and if so, by whom?.

Even if it was fixed, your conspiracy theory makes no sense, surely you can see that?. What would be the aim and expected result of rigging the results?. Surely the only point in doing this would be to increase the sales of Japanese cars, right?. Yet you said earlier that there were far less Japanese cars on the roads, so if reliability surveys were indeed fixed in favour of Japanese manufacturers, it is clearly pointless as it is having no effect.

Simple way to resolve this argument is to look at what cars the Americans, Canadians buy. They have the lemon laws which give consumers much stronger rights, So mostly non home produced cars are Japanese or Korean.

The French And Italian manufacturers withdrew over 10 years ago because the Americans won’t put up with their reliability standards. Some German cars at the high end but not the volume.

Same in Australia where they say go into the interior in a Land Rover if you must but if you want to get back go in a Toyota

Sammy1 polarises the differences between subjective and objective realities. Do we construct meaning around our lived experience or scan data and assess it? How many times have you heard somebody say “my friend/father/neighbour smoked 60 capstan full strength from the age of 12 and died at the age of 96 having slipped over leaving the pub” and therefore cigarettes don’t kill you. OK I exaggerate to make a point but you get my gist, desisting from cigarettes is the single largest way of avoiding death and illness.

We now live in a society where opinion is regarded as valid as fact, and where people are proud to say they are innumerate (I don’t understand differential equations, the difference between mean, mode and average etc etc) yet would never dream of admitting to illiteracy and science in its broadest sense is increasingly poorly understood.

There is solid, verifiable data to support the argument that Japanese/Korean cars are more reliable. It is not an opinion but a fact. Well, I have a T shirt that says “The good thing about science is that it is true whether you believe it or not”. This is not to denigrate Sammy1 or anybody else, but the latter part of this discussion crystallises the point.

It's an argument that's been done a few times on this forum - individual experiences with their cars vs a larger set of data from the HJ forum or owner reviews here or some far larger survey data.

I suspect that, seeing some of the data myself on this, cars overall are more reliable for the main components like the engine, but seem to more often have annoying issues, which appear to be mainly electrics or electronics-related. Rather like a lot of modern home appliances, computers, mobile phones, etc - and often at the start of ownership.

One reason why the best Oriental makes are more reliable is that they tend to not take so many risks in putting their cars out to market with the latest tech. That often means they are seen as a bit 'staid', but it does at least mean they work as intended!

I myself have noticed that the majority of cars coming in to my local Mazda dealer for some fix for a glitch or such and such tend to be the higher spec newer models - probably as there's more tech to go wrong than the lower specced ones. Probably a similar story across most manufacturers.

As this is a UK forum I was only quoting my opinion of UK sales. As to reliability I was again referring to my own experience of ownership. To take it further as to overall quality of materials used in todays cars I think that the German cars and in particular BMW are still put together better than Asian cars. As to other remarks about statistic arriving at a conclusion in favour or Jap cars we all know that stats are easily swayed to give one answer that someone wants to project. Witness BJ and his latest advice from SAGE based on stats and algorithms. I am only giving MY opinion on here which seems a crime to some

Not a crime at all...just WRONG.

What would you expect of any 9 year old car? As to the costs you quote, where on earth was it repaired. At any independent garage BMWs of any age are no more expensive to repair than any other and parts are also readily available and no dearer than other makes. On any 9 year old car you could expect brake pads discs and maybe some suspension problems especially as it appears to be 13years old when parted with.

I wouldn't expect those faults on a BMW let alone any other car of that mileage or age.

As this is a UK forum I was only quoting my opinion of UK sales.

The actual UK v European nos. still largely turn out very similar but obviously on a smaller scale. Toyota are within ~ 10% of Audi, BMW & Mercedes, Hyundai+Kia outsell all of those. The big difference is Ford is the UK no.1 brand in the first half of 2020 whereas on an European basis it is no.7.

Edited by Heidfirst on 11/11/2020 at 14:03

Also the number of cars which are replaced under warranty under the sale of goods act. From what I have heard one company replaces more cars in a month than another in a year!

Could you give us more details, what you have written is totally pointless.

The aspects of reliability, quality, build quality, feel, customer satisfaction are so inter-woven, it even appears in some of the so-called reliability surveys. Combine that with emotion and it's no wonder no two folk ever agree. Places like JD Power in the US tend to have very large sample sizes and are a good place to browse, not the What Car version, which is very poorly presented. There's no doubt that Japanese and Korean makes trend highest for reliability if you define that as problems/issues during ownership etc. From my own experience in Quality management in industry, Japanese customers have the highest and most critical attribute requirements, by far, so much that it was impossible for us to meet in some circumstances. At the other extreme, my personal ownership of vehicles has covered many makes, from very reliable French cars, to hopelessly problematic VAG models, even though I liked the "feel" of them.

Japanese cars got their reputation in the 1960s-1980s and it has kind of stuck? Do they still deserve it? In my view, just about, but not as much as they once did.

I reckon they peaked in the late 1980s - then the gap was huge but it has narrowed somewhat. European stuff has got better and the Japanese stuff isn't quite as good.

Do not fall into the trap of thinking Japanese cars do not go wrong or have design errors. They do, but overall probably not quite as much as some others. I also do not think the Korean stuff is as good as Japanese - start taking one to bits and you quickly find they still have a cheap'n'cheerful approach to quite a few design aspects and parts. It is surprising how often those 5 and 7 year warranties are needed.

As for Mazda they cannot be defended. An appalling design cock up and an absolutely terrible lack of responsibility. An appalling company when it really comes to customer service. As for blaming the buyers virtually every other manufacturer seems to be able to make a diesel which doesn't blow up when used on short journeys. What's Mazda's problem? It wasn't as if it was for a short while either - it was over several model generations.

As to small cars - yes, cars like Yaris, Jazz are all very good and generally very reliable as cars go but to be completely fair it isn't as if the motorways of the UK are littered with exploded Clios. I'd still rate a Yaris as more reliable and a better used buy from that aspect.

Let's also remember motoring is not all about reliability. Reliability isn't a big seller. You do need to actually like the car as well and enjoy driving it (this is meant to be a forum of motoring enthusiasts is it not) so it is all a balance.

The actual UK v European nos. still largely turn out very similar but obviously on a smaller scale. Toyota are within ~ 10% of Audi, BMW & Mercedes, Hyundai+Kia outsell all of those. The big difference is Ford is the UK no.1 brand in the first half of 2020 whereas on an European basis it is no.7.

Where did you get that data? If you are combining Hyundai and Kia you should compare with the total for VW Group brands.

SMMT data for the first half of 2020. e.g. www.best-selling-cars.com/britain-uk/2020-half-yea.../ (scroll down to "Best-selling Car Brands).

I can certainly see the argument for combining VW with Skoda & Seat as they essentially use the same platforms in very similar ways but I think that there is a bit more difference with Audi & certainly Bentley, Bugatti & Lamborghini - but we weren't really arguing about VW group's place as I acknowledged earlier that they are way out in front in Europe.

Don't agree with that but if you insist you should be comparing Audi with Lexus not Toyota.

You are, of course, allowed your opinion but from my pov Audi engineering whilst drawing from a common pool of components often ends up quite different to VW/Seat/Skoda which imo are more alike mechanically

The particular line within this thread that I have been addressing is "It would take the volume of 3 or 4 Jap companies to reach the volume of say BMW or Ford " . There is no point bringing Lexus up as within Europe it is a minnow - if I was going to add another Japanese brand it would be Nissan at 127k sales in H1 2020.

The following figures show that as individual brands Toyota's volume on it's own within Europe in H1 2020 is higher than Ford's & a bit behind BMW but not by much.

ACEA sales figures for H1 2020

Ford 273k

Toyota 279k

BMW 286k