SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon

Honest John Back Room » Motoring discussion
What is life like with your car? Let us know and win £500 in John Lewis vouchers | No thanks
View Threaded
Sat 15 Aug 2020 18:37
SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - Tony Houghton

I want to buy a used car and I'm torn between a Honda Civic 1.8 i-VTEC ES-T and a Seat Leon ST FR with Tech pack and the 138bhp 1.4 TSI engine, both from 2014. I'm tempted by the Seat because it gets higher overall ratings in reviews, performs better, and the estate could be handy for taking my dogs out etc. However, the Honda is more sensible on the whole, and some of the gadgets seem better.

I want it to last me at least 5 years, probably considerably more, but I only do very low annual mileage, so I'm not overly concerned that the smaller turbo engine might not be so robust (should I be?). My main concern is that the electronics might play up, and this might be one area where Seat is weaker than other VAG cars. But even Hondas aren't perfect in this respect when they get old.

Any thoughts?

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sat 15 Aug 2020 19:00
SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - badbusdriver

You do realise that the Civic also comes as an estate?. Boot is massive, not that the hatch's boot is small, it is bigger than most cars in the class (including the Leon).

With that out the way, while the Leon is a reliable enough car, long term the Civic would be the one to go for. Going purely on what i have read, the Civic would be more refined and comfortable, the Leon more of a 'drivers car'. The Leon would also be both faster (especially overtaking with the extra torque of the turbo) and more efficient with that great 1.4TSI engine.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sat 15 Aug 2020 20:57
SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - Tony Houghton

Thanks. I think you're right, the Civic is the marginally better choice for me, including on grounds of its refinement, and its performance is still more than adequate. I don't specifically want an estate, it just would have been a small bonus. OTOH the hatch should be easier to park, especially as it has a rear camera.

I've got some health issues, so I've restricted my choice to what's available fairly locally, otherwise the process would be too stressful. These two just happen to be the two best examples that match my criteria.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sat 15 Aug 2020 23:02
SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - SLO76
Both are good used options. Test drive them both to see which appeals more and then hunt down a good example of either. I rate the Civic as a longterm risk free choice but the Leon 1.4 TSi FR is a particularly nice car, with near diesel economy, good performance, nimble handling and sporty looks but it still rises ok. I’d buy based more on condition and history between these two but if all things were equal I’d probably have the Seat.

I’d expand the search to include the Mazda 3 2.0 Skyactiv too which is a great used buy. It’s a very pleasant thing to drive, decent on fuel and reliability is top notch. A Toyota Auris 1.2T Estate is a sensible option too if a bit dull.

Edited by SLO76 on 15/08/2020 at 23:03

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 16 Aug 2020 00:37
SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - SLO76
*rides ok
Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 16 Aug 2020 08:02
SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - gordonbennet

I know nothing of Seat's.

I know a little more Civics because my daughter runs two (and two previous S types), a 2008 1.8 as a runabout and a 2016 TypeR, and i get to hear feedback via her cos she's into the Honda scene as it were.

Whilst the Civics are very good cars indeed be aware the aircon compressor is a fairly common failure, it failed on the older Civic and also failed on my sons 2013 CRV @ year 4, daugher paid some £500 for aftermarket component fix at her trsuted indy, sons dealer fix would have been some £1400 but was covered under Honda extended warranty.

Her newer car has needed some recall work and both times the dealership has made a right pigs ear of the job, first and selling dealership lost franchise, first recall for brake work the dealer left the brakes needing pumping to operate, luckily my son collected the car and the conversation a few minutes later when he returned left them in no doubt...second recall other dealer managed to damage the wiring loom or thereabouts meaning removal of engine to complete repair.

I mention these points because sometimes marques get reputations their dealers fail to live up to, this can work the other way too of course,

Also make sure either you or a competent indy keep those brake calipers properly serviced (full brake strip clean lube is not part of service schedule), preferably with an annual strip clean lube (and keep those rear parking brake levers lubed wher they pivot on the calipers), like all other Japanese cars the brake calipers suffer from the annual UK salt bath and the effort you put into preventing this issue will pay you back times over....even otherwise bomb proof Landcruisers suffer from this with caliper pistons seizing in bores... arguably this applies to all cars wherever they were made, i'm staggered by the neglect generally of car braking systems but then people neglect tyres just as much, weird doesn't begin to cover it.

Edited by gordonbennet on 16/08/2020 at 08:24

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 16 Aug 2020 09:00
SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - catsdad

I had a 2012 1.8 Civic hatch until last summer when I changed to a 2018 Golf 1.4 122bhp estate. Similar but not identical to your situation then. I have been happy with both.

In day to day driving the acceleration feels similar. The main difference is that the Honda needs revs to get the best out of it but I generally drive pretty steadily and rather enjoyed the way it picked up its skirts on the occasions I did call upon its performance. Economy in the Civic was around 45 mpg the Golf is about 50. On my mileage that’s about £150 pa difference. Main dealer servicing on the Honda is relatively cheap, the Golf is about 50% more which negates it’s fuel economy advantage.

In general driving and it’s controls the Civic felt solid and substantial, the Golf feels a bit lighter. It’s almost like comparing Duplo with Lego. I never liked the stop start on the Civic as it felt mechanically unsympathetic so I always disabled it. The system on the Golf feels right and I generally leave it working. I am not sure if the Leon has an electronic handbrake but the one in the Golf has made me a convert, other than potential cost of repair.

As for luggage space both cars swallow the same suitcases with ease. The Civic is much better in this respect than it looks from outside. And it has the magic seats which even when in the down position offer extra space underneath.

Also for dogs do not overlook the magic seats. In the up position you have a large dog friendly space and very low sill entry compared to any boot. You would have to work out his best to restrain the dog though.

I echo the points re Honda brakes. I had new rear pads at about 30k and new pads and discs all round at 70k. It also began consuming oil from about 60k at about half a litre every 10k miles. Not a disaster but not ideal. At that point it was six years old and online forums suggested there was an oil issue with 2012 cars so it may not affect the 2014 models you are looking at.

Other than that the Civic was very reliable over the six years I ran it. If the Golf proves to be as good I will be delighted .......... and surprised.

Edited by catsdad on 16/08/2020 at 09:01

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 16 Aug 2020 09:43
SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - gordonbennet
I echo the points re Honda brakes. I had new rear pads at about 30k and new pads and discs all round at 70k.

Excellent post Catsdad.

Daughter's typeR had new rear pads, at less mileage than you too, and no it certainly wasn't through gentle or lack of use which is what people tend to say causes premature rear pad wear, her type R sees hard use, she has alternative pads fitted (green stuff springs to mind but i might be wrong) now so will be interesting to see if this improves things.

All of the Civics she's had have used a small amount of oil, despite stories to the contrary all engines will consume some oil over a long enough period, i'd be wary of a Diesel especially that didn't use anything at all and be wondering how much was increasing fuel content.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 16 Aug 2020 16:26
SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - Tony Houghton

Whilst the Civics are very good cars indeed be aware the aircon compressor is a fairly common failure, it failed on the older Civic and also failed on my sons 2013 CRV @ year 4, daugher paid some £500 for aftermarket component fix at her trsuted indy, sons dealer fix would have been some £1400 but was covered under Honda extended warranty.

Ah, that could be a game changer. I'm sure you're right, because the compressor failed on my sister's 2006 Civic diesel too. It was only a year or two ago though, so it had lasted a reasonably long time. I wonder if they're less stressed in diesels due to the lower revs?

She got a replacement part from a breaker, but the aircon specialist couldn't fit it due to difficult access in the engine bay, and her usual (no longer) local garage claimed that the car, which she had dropped off the night before, wouldn't start when they tried to move it into the bay, and would need a Honda specialist to diagnose/repair. Of course we didn't believe their story, but couldn't prove anything, so she gave up on it and sold it as a non-runner.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 16 Aug 2020 17:04
SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - corax

Ah, that could be a game changer. I'm sure you're right, because the compressor failed on my sister's 2006 Civic diesel too. It was only a year or two ago though, so it had lasted a reasonably long time. I wonder if they're less stressed in diesels due to the lower revs?

The compressor must be a poor design with some intrinsic fault. I can't understand why Honda have perservered with this component through the same successive models, I would have thought a company like Honda would have changed their supplier if the old slogan is to be believed.

I suppose the answer is to replace with an aftermarket compressor. I remember HJ reporting failures on VAG models some years back and recommending that a Sanden compressor be substituted instead.

But Honda should have this problem licked by now.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 16 Aug 2020 16:46
SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - Tony Houghton
I’d expand the search to include the Mazda 3 2.0 Skyactiv too which is a great used buy. It’s a very pleasant thing to drive, decent on fuel and reliability is top notch. A Toyota Auris 1.2T Estate is a sensible option too if a bit dull.

I think I've missed the boat on the SEAT, it's gone from Autotrader. I was considering Mazda, but was put off by the low power for the engine size. That was just me being silly though, it probably means better torque and reliability, and the 0-60 figure is good.

Perhaps I should expand my search further. The main reason I narrowed it down to something Asian or VAG was on the advice of a friend who used to manage a garage. I discounted Kia and Hyundai for being too slow, and I'm not keen on paying extra for an Audi or VW badge.

My current car is a Citroen DS3, which has been pretty good to me, but i need back doors now and also feel that I've been a bit lucky and should get rid of it before it gets troublesome, and avoid French if I want something I can keep for years.

I'm sure I would have a much better choice if I considered Focuses and Astras, and review sites like Parkers say these are right up there with the best in class, but my friend with the garage also advised me very strongly to avoid Ford and Vauxhall. Is he right?

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 16 Aug 2020 13:28
SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - Engineer Andy
My main concern is that the electronics might play up, and this might be one area where Seat is weaker than other VAG cars. But even Hondas aren't perfect in this respect when they get old.

Any thoughts?

I seriously doubt if SEAT electric are any worse than any other main VAG brand - I would say that the main difference between brands is the dealership experience and the expectations vs reality of buyers.

Skoda appear to come out on top as regards the dealership experience, with SEAT nearer the bottom in the group, but, like with most dealerships, who owns the local frnachise, and thus how it is run, makes far more of a difference.

Yes, how SEAT UK manages those franchises from a QA perspective is important as well, as some makes (like Mazda) have, IMHO, poor UK 'arms' that in my view serve the customer poorly, especially when it comes to making sure dealers are high quality and stamping out bad / dodgy practices.

I own a Mazda car but have generally been fortunate with my local main dealership, other owners I know (using other ones) have not fared so well and have not been looked after by Mazda UK.

You may find that your local dealer for either SEAT and/or Honda is good or is rubbish. Both cars you've chosen are decent choices, especially going for the belt-cam 1.4TSI rather than the chain-driven ones in the Leon, as it appears to be the most reliable in the VAG range and the best value given its decent performance and mpg.

Just make sure that whatever you choose has a proven FSH, is in good order and is at the very least covered by a dealers 1 year warranty.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 16 Aug 2020 16:08
SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - Tony Houghton

You may find that your local dealer for either SEAT and/or Honda is good or is rubbish. Both cars you've chosen are decent choices, especially going for the belt-cam 1.4TSI rather than the chain-driven ones in the Leon, as it appears to be the most reliable in the VAG range and the best value given its decent performance and mpg.

I'll probably stick to a local independent for servicing etc. There's a decent one very close to me which is convenient. I think both the cars for sale I've found are from dealers that are independent or franchised to other manufacturers.

How can I tell whether a TSI is belt- or chain-driven? Does it depend on the power output and/or the age?

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 16 Aug 2020 17:47
SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - Engineer Andy

You may find that your local dealer for either SEAT and/or Honda is good or is rubbish. Both cars you've chosen are decent choices, especially going for the belt-cam 1.4TSI rather than the chain-driven ones in the Leon, as it appears to be the most reliable in the VAG range and the best value given its decent performance and mpg.

I'll probably stick to a local independent for servicing etc. There's a decent one very close to me which is convenient. I think both the cars for sale I've found are from dealers that are independent or franchised to other manufacturers.

How can I tell whether a TSI is belt- or chain-driven? Does it depend on the power output and/or the age?

Not on power output per se, although it can be a good guide for specific cars - age, sort of - they've come and gone with VAG, but not all at the same time. The best thing is to confirm the engine type code and then find out with an internet search (or ask here - I'm no expert of which engine types they are, but others are).

Don't take a seller's word for it, as they could lie to cover up that the car has a less reliable engine or some other part specific to cars built at that time - some which are inherrant faults which cannot be recified or which require a major garage bill to do so.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 16 Aug 2020 18:51
SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - badbusdriver

but my friend with the garage also advised me very strongly to avoid Ford and Vauxhall. Is he right?

In a word, no. Yes, there are engines and transmissions in both Ford and Vauxhall you should probably avoid. But do so, and they are just as good as anything VAG.

With Ford, stick to the 1.6, 1.8 and 2.0 n/a petrols along with the 1.6 Ecoboost petrol, avoid the Powershift DCT auto and they are fine.

With the Vauxhall, engine wise, stick with the 1.4 and 1.6 turbo petrols and avoid the (Fiat sourced) diesels. Manual and auto boxes are fine.

I discounted Kia and Hyundai for being too slow,

Not sure i understand this statement?. The equivalent Kia to the Civic 1.8 would be the Ceed 1.6 petrol (133bhp) which has only 3.5% less power than the Honda. Yes, it needs to be worked hard to extract the performance, but that is the same with any n/a options, including the Civic. The Hyundai equivalent, the i30, typically has the 118bhp version of the same engine but both it, and the Ceed, are available as a 1.6 turbo petrol with plenty of oomph (183bhp for the i30, 200bhp for the Ceed).

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 16 Aug 2020 21:23
SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - Tony Houghton

but my friend with the garage also advised me very strongly to avoid Ford and Vauxhall. Is he right?

In a word, no. Yes, there are engines and transmissions in both Ford and Vauxhall you should probably avoid. But do so, and they are just as good as anything VAG.

With Ford, stick to the 1.6, 1.8 and 2.0 n/a petrols along with the 1.6 Ecoboost petrol, avoid the Powershift DCT auto and they are fine.

With the Vauxhall, engine wise, stick with the 1.4 and 1.6 turbo petrols and avoid the (Fiat sourced) diesels. Manual and auto boxes are fine.

I discounted Kia and Hyundai for being too slow,

Not sure i understand this statement?. The equivalent Kia to the Civic 1.8 would be the Ceed 1.6 petrol (133bhp) which has only 3.5% less power than the Honda. Yes, it needs to be worked hard to extract the performance, but that is the same with any n/a options, including the Civic. The Hyundai equivalent, the i30, typically has the 118bhp version of the same engine but both it, and the Ceed, are available as a 1.6 turbo petrol with plenty of oomph (183bhp for the i30, 200bhp for the Ceed).

I think you missed that I'm after a used car, with a budget in the ballpark of £8000, which typically gets a 2014 car in this class at dealer prices, because I don't see 1.6 turbo versions of any of those. ISTR reading that the latest generations of Vauxhall and Ford have made considerable improvements in build quality over the generation I can afford.

Yes, the Ceed is almost as powerful as the Honda, but either it has a lot less torque, or it's a heavier car, or both, because it's considerably slower, and I remember reading a review that said it feels more lacklustre than the bhp figure suggests.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 16 Aug 2020 17:58
SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - Avant

Any make of car is going to have weak areas, so whatever you buy will have an element of risk. Toyotas are know for reliability and longevity, but I get the impression that you'd like something a bit more fun to drive than a Corolla.

Try a Mazda 3 and see if you like it: the usual Mazda petrol engine is a non-turbo and needs a lot of revs to make good progress, which may or may not suit your driving style.

I don't know why your friend advises you to avoid Fords. There are lots of Focuses to choose from and if you avoid the 1.0 litre which has a bad reputation, you could get a good one which is at least as good to driver as your original choices.

That said, I don't think the Leon or a 1.4 Skoda Octavia, would be a bad choice provided that you go for the manual tramsmission.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 16 Aug 2020 19:33
SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - Tony Houghton

I don't mind it being a bit dull, and would prefer comfort over handling, but I do want reasonably quick acceleration, say 0-60 in under 10 secs. A Toyota Auris 1.2 turbo might feel more lively in day-to-day driving than the Mazda or Honda, even though it's slower on paper? I used to drive a diesel and miss the pulling power at low revs especially, but with my low mileage now I'd be mad to get a modern diesel.

I believe Fords, especially Focuses later than Mk 1, are a bit notorious for electrical gremlins. We used to have a 2002 Mondeo which was a bit dodgy, but otherwise the interior quality felt considerably superior to the Focus Mk 1. Neither of the 1.0 Ecoboost (or NA 1.6 engines) satisfy my 10 second rule anyway, so that leaves the 1.5 Ecoboost. Is that a good engine?

(EDIT: No 1.5 EcoBoosts on Autotrader within my search radius, so I guess it's quite rare, which might not be a good thing).

Edited by Tony Houghton on 16/08/2020 at 19:37

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 16 Aug 2020 20:39
SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - badbusdriver

The 0-60 time is pretty much irrelevant unless you constantly find yourself accelerating from a standstill to beyond 60 mph(?). How quick a car accelerates from 30-70mph through the gears, that is a useful measurement but still doesn't take differences in gearing into account (one car may feel faster but an extra gearchange will drop the actual time right down by comparison, same with 0-60). In gear acceleration from 30-50 in fourth or 50-70 in fifth are much more useful for the real world but, along with 30-70 through the gears, are very rarely stated because of the obsession with 0-60.

Power to weight ratio, along with how much torque the car has at what revs is what determines how quick a car feels (regardless of gearing).

Ultimately (regardless of what the figures may say), a turbo engine is going to feel faster more of the time than a n/a engine of a similar power output unless you thrash it all the time.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 16 Aug 2020 23:00
SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - Ian_SW

My wife's had a 2014 Leon (1.2 TSI 110 engine) since nearly new. It's now at about 80000 miles with no significant problems at all. Only breakdown has been one of the brake disc splash guards coming loose and slipping down scraping on the inside of the wheel. It required a very brief attendance from the AA to remove the wheel to let it fall out, but only because like many modern cars it has no spare wheel or jack so I couldn't do it myself.

The 1.2 engine is plenty powerful enough for a car of that size, and easily does 50mpg on either a motorway or rural run, and a bit less in town. When driving normally, it doesn't feel any slower than the 160bhp 1.8TSI in my Octavia. The only real difference is that more revs just seem to make more noise rather than releasing significantly more power when you take it up into higher revs when accellerating hard.

The interior feels a bit lower rent than a Golf, but easily as good as a Ford/Vauxhall/Kia etc. Nothing has fallen off or broken inside (despite two young children!) in the five years we've had it.

A mate has a had a Civic from a similar era (2015 I think), which has also been completely fine. I think I'd choose the Leon over the Civic, mostly because we have a reasonably priced local VAG specialist who we use for all servicing. There's little point taking a 6+ year old car to a main dealer for servicing, and there are fewer independent garages around who genuinely specialise in Hondas than there are for VAG stuff.

Edited by SkodaIan on 16/08/2020 at 23:04

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 16 Aug 2020 23:11
SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - gordonbennet

A mate has a had a Civic from a similar era (2015 I think), which has also been completely fine. I think I'd choose the Leon over the Civic, mostly because we have a reasonably priced local VAG specialist who we use for all servicing. There's little point taking a 6+ year old car to a main dealer for servicing, and there are fewer independent garages around who genuinely specialise in Hondas than there are for VAG stuff.

Good point that, lots of VAG specialists about, very few for other makes like Honda unless into the tuning game.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 16 Aug 2020 23:29
SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - Avant

"I don't mind it being a bit dull, and would prefer comfort over handling, but I do want reasonably quick acceleration, say 0-60 in under 10 secs. A Toyota Auris 1.2 turbo might feel more lively in day-to-day driving...."

Your next step could be to try a 1.2T Auris and see if it's lively enough for you. How it feels to you on the road is more important than quoted 0-60 times. In my experience Toyotas, as well as being reliable, are rather better to drive than magazine road test would have you believe. The previous petrol engines in the Auris were I think slower than the 1.2T.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Mon 17 Aug 2020 09:15
SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - catsdad

If acceleration is important then how it is delivered may also be a factor. For me the characteristics of turbo v non-turbo is one of the few really distinguishing left in modern cars.

The 1.4 122hp Golf and 1.8 Civic have broadly similar 0-60 times in everyday use. The 148 hp VAG is a little quicker on paper. However the VAG cars deliver this with a turbo boost from the lower part of the rev range upwards while the non-turbo Civic doesn’t kick in until it’s revving at a higher rate. It may be a marginal difference on paper but it feels quite marked driving them in practice. Simply put you need to rev the Civic harder to get maximum acceleration. Doing so makes the engine sing to my ears but others may find it noisy.

As Avant says test drives will help work out which you prefer.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Mon 17 Aug 2020 10:16
SEAT Leon ST - Honda Civic or Seat Leon - gordonbennet

Indeed, i personally don't like having to rev engines hard to get decent go from them and a Honda isn't for me, i put that down to driving lorries for ever and it just doesn't feel right, nor is it enjoyable for me to have to rev an engine high, i suspect many turboDiesel car drivers would find the same, having long ago got used to that huge torque once the turbocharger came on stream, maybe ex t'Diesel drivers find themselves more at home in the new t'petrols.

Others like the Honda engine type driving experience, each to their own, my daughter for one though she's finding herself torn between her two cars, the later turbocharged Civic feels a bit dead to her at below spool engine speeds but once above that point all hell breaks loose, where the older NA engine provides in some ways a more fun experience for her despite having much less power as the flat spot at lower revs isn't quite so pronounced, its possible she's finding the typeR might be too rapid for modern roads.

Can't knock the general reliability of these Hondas though, she's covered several hundred thousand fast miles in 4 Honda Civics, 2 x 2 litre S types, 1 x 1.8 and 1 x 2.0 litre turbo, never had a breakdown as such, one clutch, not cheap, some front suspension parts especially start to wear as the miles climb, again not cheap, and as discussed earlier the obviously weak aircon compressor problem, engines and gearboxes (all manual) trouble free, her first two were will into 150k+ miles and still running reasonably , her first one got bent and scrapped, i seem to recall it was general suspension wear that scrapped her second one simply too much to spend considering its age etc.

Edited by gordonbennet on 17/08/2020 at 10:21

Reply | Report as offensive | Link