A whole 34mm!
Does that matter?. I'm wanting a car narrower than the Vitara and the sales bods are telling me to go for the ZS, which is wider. By how much is irrelevant, what is relevant is their lack of knowledge regarding products they currently sell and ones they are about to.
BTW, the figure quoted exclude mirrors.
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I've never bought a new car from a main dealer and having read these posts I likely never will! Years ago I walked into a VW dealer with a view to buying a Golf GTi. Nobody was interested in talking to me so I left, someone lost a big commission!! For the past few years I've gone to car supermarkets knowing exactly what I want, but I have to be more flexible on what stock is there . if I was spending £30k I'd want champagne service to be honest, I can understand TBs frustration, with the dosh to spend and hopeless service. They must take most folk as Muppets, trouble is they probably are!
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I've never bought a new car from a main dealer and having read these posts I likely never will! Years ago I walked into a VW dealer with a view to buying a Golf GTi. Nobody was interested in talking to me so I left, someone lost a big commission!! For the past few years I've gone to car supermarkets knowing exactly what I want, but I have to be more flexible on what stock is there . if I was spending £30k I'd want champagne service to be honest, I can understand TBs frustration, with the dosh to spend and hopeless service. They must take most folk as Muppets, trouble is they probably are!
I know what you mean - back in 2006, I save myself £3.5k buying a new (pre-regged unused hire car) Mazda3 from a Car Supermarket, spent £500 on accessories (nice) and used the rest to pay for several years of servicing, etc.
The largest 'discount' I obtained on any car (I was looking at 4 cars/makes) was £500. Some were fine in terms of answering questions, test drives, etc, but unfortunately many dealers only seemed keen on selling me the top spec models. Their loss.
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I just bought from a main dealer, a used car. It was a reasonable price...some £900 below average and I got a reasonable px. I get a years warranty, full service before delivery and one years MOT. This was the second dealer I'd tried and the first was not good. I've had good experiences at main dealers and also some bad ones but that's the same as I've found at Indies.
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I'm not really sure why you would expect any car salesman to be particularly well informed.
As with most retail staff they are poorly trained and frequently uninterested in anything bar parting punters from their cash to increase their bonus. Only consistent exception to this rule is John Lewis who do make sure their staff know what they are selling.
It's much easier to be nice to people who simply gush about a particular colour or like the pretty interior. I worked with salesmen (mostly selling to business not individuals). Their No. 1 Rule was make the client like you and and want to do business - be a nice person.
Boredom would set in for most when you ask about the width to the nearest mm, whether the left hand flange sprocket is controlled from the touchscreen, or time to the nearest second for the car to warm from 0-20C.
If you know the answer, or where to look it up, why bother to ask!
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I wonder how many children grow up with a burning desire to be a car salesperson. I suspect not many.
So the chances are that this non-aspirational job attracts people who may not be the brightest stars in the firmament.
Now, now, Avant! Reprimand yourself for such insulting language!
Some of us on here were car salespeople at one time.
I'll have you know my star shines like a 40w bulb.
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I wasn't all that hot as a salesman for Leyland vans and trucks, but I made a better parts man as I had the main attribute of a good parrtsman.. an excellent memory.
I remember one (at that time0 very old just about to retire at the mini dealership in geneva.
I rattled off a list of parts for a moggy minor engine and othe bits and he walked off without saying a word, went round the parts bins and brought everything back in one hit,
What a star!
And car salespeople in those days no brtter than here in old blighty.
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And the parts guy will be minimum wage plus a pat on the head , while the salesman will be on £40k......
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And the parts guy will be minimum wage plus a pat on the head , while the salesman will be on £40k......
I was definitely not on minimum wage in Geneva, I can assure you.
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The issue of training is an interesting one, and it’s one of mixed results.
New starters at Arnold Clark (whether staff or management, new to the industry or a 30 year veteran) go on a week’s induction at one of AC’s training centre’s around the country. Other PLC groups offer similar schemes.
Clearly if you are an independent, family owned, dealership you don’t have access to these inductions.
From that point on, there are always e-learning modules to complete from the manufacturer, whether they be product, finance or soft skills. The manufacturer will also provide classroom activities, effectively qualifying a customer may take a day to train.
New product can be handled in a couple of different ways - the traditional one is for some or all of the sales team to go off to a central event where they will have a combination of classroom and driving activities. There will always be online modules to complete in addition. The other option is for the training to go to the dealership, lasting, typically, a day. Pros and cons for both approaches.
So there is a lot of training available for sales execs, managers and aftersales staff.
If I’m talking to a newly hatched sales exec, I inevitably ask what brought them into the industry. It’s usually answered along the lines of ‘I love cars’. That’s all well and good, but you have to have a real enthusiasm for people, and have the ability and desire to understand who you are talking to effectively present benefits that will add value, and not features that add cost. I’m always happy to see someone come in from the hospitality industry.
This has gone on for longer than intended, but I’ll finish with one thought. Just every now and again, customers fail the test. If they are deemed not worth the hassle that they look like the will cause in the next 3 years (or whatever their renewal cycle is), then they may be judged not worth the £100 or so earned in the transaction. Most sales execs have a mental file marked ‘close escape’.
Be nice to them, they’re under massive pressure to perform, there are no secrets as to how they are doing vs their colleagues and they should look after you.
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A couple of years ago I was talking to area manager of a well known VAG brand. He confided to mutual friend he'd found I knew more about the marque he represented than he did.
In the 70's it was so much easier to knowledge of models when ranges were much smaller. Now some manufacturers have more different models than you can shake a stick at. Those were the days when a cigarette lighter, heated rear window, radio and hubcaps could be all there was differentiate trim levels. Or perhaps,velour seats and tinted glass. Those were the days.
Personally, I wouldn't get het up about a mistake of 34mm. In my world that would be splitting hairs. It's not even worth bold print to emphasise a point. I can see it does matter to you bbd, one day a vehicle 34 mm wider than usual might come down your street. Make sure you keep an eagle eye out for it. ;)
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Personally, I wouldn't get het up about a mistake of 34mm. In my world that would be splitting hairs. It's not even worth bold print to emphasise a point. I can see it does matter to you bbd, one day a vehicle 34 mm wider than usual might come down your street. Make sure you keep an eagle eye out for it. ;)
All depends if a 1,775mm car will fit in your garage when a 1,809mm car wont! :-)
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The last time I bought a car the salesman said "I don't know, but I'll find out", which endeared me to him more than I can express. The same with a doctor, who reached for a medical book.
I find most salesmen, in any environment, aren't prepared to admit their ignorance and prefer bull excrement.
Edited by bathtub tom on 03/07/2020 at 23:19
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The last time I bought a car the salesman said "I don't know, but I'll find out", which endeared me to him more than I can express.
It's a very long time (decades) since I studied a new-car brochure, but I would hope that simple dimensions, with or without mirrors, would be found there. Didn't anyone think to look ?
Of course if one asked the question about an outdated model I wouldn't expect an everyday used-car salesman to know. If he offers to find out, bully for him.
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Personally, I wouldn't get het up about a mistake of 34mm. In my world that would be splitting hairs. It's not even worth bold print to emphasise a point.
On the contrary, as i said before, the 34mm is not the point as i'd already concluded that i didn't want a car as wide as the Vitara. If they had told me the ZS was 'about the same width', fair enough, or better still, they said they didn't know the actual figures.
I can see it does matter to you bbd, one day a vehicle 34 mm wider than usual might come down your street. Make sure you keep an eagle eye out for it. ;)
When we moved to this address we had a Hyundai i30 (1780mm) for the first year. It got scraped twice by passing vehicles (neither of which owned up). Being a Motability car, we don't pay for the insurance, but we do have to pay the excess which i think is about £250 on each claim should the person who did the damage not own up. In the three years we have had the Jazz, no scrapes.
I do have a particular gripe about how wide cars are getting these days in general, but in the absence of being able to do anything about that, i'll settle for having the narrowest car which fits our needs. Ideally this car would be no wider than the Jazz (which is actually 115mm narrower than the MG ZS).
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The best car salesman I have ever encountered was at BMW. Back in about 2008 speccing a BMW was not easy, several specs to start with, loads of options some of which clashed with others resulting in several ways of getting the car you actually wanted but at varying prices.
I had worked out roughly what it would cost before I got there but Kevin (I only remember the names of helpful people) worked out a price slightly less. I had also researched on line deals (first time I had done this) and I told him I had seen the car for less on line so he turned the scree away from me, tapped at the keys and when he turned it back it showed a price within a few pounds of that I had researched.
At this point we agreed to think about it for a few days (it was almost twice the price of another Focus) and then get back to him.
Mid week he rang to say he had good news if we would like to call in over the next couple of days so made an appointment. BMW had just introduced another spec which had as standard some of the kit we wanted but at a lower price, a saving of around £800 for exactly the same car (but without the lowered suspension which we did not want).
We actually felt guilty when we decided to go for the Focus after all the help he had given us but I guess if you are in sales you have to accept that only a minority of foot traffic in a showroom actually buy
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Thunderbird, what a ridiculous thing for the Volvo salesman to say.
My experience of buying an XC40 was much more pleasant.
I test drove 3 before deciding on engine/spec, all at different Volvo dealers (the exact model/spec is really hard to find)
First was a T4 R Design Pro with 19" wheels and all the extras like Intellisafe Pro and Xenium pack. Very nice, but considerable road roar on the mototrway. Enjoyed active cruise control and pilot assist.
Next was a T4 Inscription Pro, also with 19" wheels and a 360 camera. Preferred this, mainly because of the blond leather interior providing a much more luxurious ambience IMO. Didn't get up to motorway speeds, but the ride seemed smoother than the R Design which has firmer, lowered suspension.
Finally, a scratch I had to itch was a T3 Inscription with 18" wheels in Stone Grey with tan leather. Surprisingly I found the engine on this felt and sounded very like the T4, despite missing one cylinder and 500cc! Subjectively, the ride felt smoother and quieter than with 19" wheels
However, I wasn't convinced that the economy would be significantly better than a T4, and wondered if I would feel short changed with 163 instead of 187 bhp, with a good dose more torque (How times have changed from the 72 bhp 1.6. Cortina days!)
So we went for a T4 Inscription in Denim Blue with blonde leather and added rear camera and winter pack. It rides beautifully and while there is still more tyre roar at 70+ than in our previous Audi Q3 (which was particularly good in this area) it's far from obtrusive.
So my advice, try a couple more Volvo dealers, and if you can't find a B4 to drive, I can 99% guarantee it will feel and drive like a T4 - it's the same engine, just with an extra battery. Yes, power is up by 10bhp, but unless your foot is on the floor at 5000RPM, you won't feel any difference every day. Torque is the same as the T4, 300Nm.
The only other difference is that it may be 3-4 mpg more efficicient and you won't be able to go above 112mph as all Volvos are now limited. Doubt this will worry many people unless they are frequent autobahn stormers!
Edited by 72 dudes on 04/07/2020 at 10:44
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72 Dudes, thanks for that.
The car we had on a 2 day test back in February was a T4 R-Design Pro AWD with raft of options (including 20" alloys, 360 camera, glass roof etc etc) which added up to about £42,000 at the time. It drove really well and whilst I had read about road noise it did not seem any worse than normal to us.
That car came direct from Volvo based at a disused airfield in Oxfordshire so I have e-mailed them and asked if they can help get us a drive a B4 Momentum AWD, a more modest spec by far.
Will see if we get a reply.
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I don't know about lying but how many salesmen have forgotten to mention that a new model is imminent and sold a gullible punter the old model costing them a lot. As with anything you buy you need to look after your own interest and do your homework especially with something as expensive as a car
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Two can play at that game, Sammy. If you do your homework and know that a model is about to be replaced, and you're happy to have the current model, you can get a whopping great discount on it. And the dealer gets to shift some stock.
Win-win.
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It was rather like the saleman in a local Volvo dealership back in 2017 only willing to sell me either a V40 T2, to spec T5 (?) or especially a diesel. I asked him specifically about a T3 and what automatic they came with (there was a LOT of confusion about the engine and transmission spec back then if you recall, with two specs possibly 'available', including the dreaded Ford Powershift DCT, which I wanted to avoid.
In the end, the V40s dated interior, no foot rest and high price (for what it was) put me off anyway, but the sales person's response was very disaapointing to say the least.
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Had a very positive experience this week with a Honda salesman
Honest, accurate and knowledgeable
He was so good I feel the need to send in an email complementing his professionalism
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What about a dishonest manufacturers website?.
This morning, i was on the Citroen website confirming how close (far away in fact) my nearest dealer is. Put my postcode in and the result came back as being 56.1km (35 miles) to a service centre and 59.4km (just under 40 miles) to the nearest actual dealer. Being familiar with both places i was well aware that the figures given were not right, but using a route planner highlighted just how far out they were. The actual distance to the service centre is 69.16 miles (111.3km) and to the dealer is 74.99 miles (120.7km).
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What about a dishonest manufacturers website?.
This morning, i was on the Citroen website confirming how close (far away in fact) my nearest dealer is. Put my postcode in and the result came back as being 56.1km (35 miles) to a service centre and 59.4km (just under 40 miles) to the nearest actual dealer. Being familiar with both places i was well aware that the figures given were not right, but using a route planner highlighted just how far out they were. The actual distance to the service centre is 69.16 miles (111.3km) and to the dealer is 74.99 miles (120.7km).
Many websites use a straight line calculation - if there's a big estuary between it can give silly figures
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<< Many websites use a straight line calculation - if there's a big estuary between it can give silly figures >>
I thought this was common knowledge. All the sites like Aut0Trader use straight-line measurements, it's a waste of time calling up a route planner.
In my very old employment days, before the advent of such software, I tried to devise a simple travelling-salesman program, basically for management to check whether tanker drivers were inventing lengthy routes for delivery. It was quite tricky allowing for the Thames estuary, never mind all the other obstacles in the real world.
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Put my postcode in and the result came back as being 56.1km (35 miles) to a service centre and 59.4km (just under 40 miles) to the nearest actual dealer. Being familiar with both places i was well aware that the figures given were not right, but using a route planner highlighted just how far out they were. The actual distance to the service centre is 69.16 miles (111.3km) and to the dealer is 74.99 miles (120.7km).
Looks like the mapping system Citroen use quotes distances as the crow flies.
Must be very bendy roads where you live!!!!!
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Had a very positive experience this week with a Honda salesman Honest, accurate and knowledgeable He was so good I feel the need to send in an email complementing his professionalism
Good to hear - my experience with them, both at my local branch (next door to and the same group as my Mazda dealer) and the one about 25 miles away where I test drove both a new Jazz and Civic back in 2005 also were very good.
A shame that their products aren't as good (compared to rivals) as in those days.
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<< Many websites use a straight line calculation - if there's a big estuary between it can give silly figures >>
I thought this was common knowledge. All the sites like Aut0Trader use straight-line measurements, it's a waste of time calling up a route planner.
Looks like the mapping system Citroen use quotes distances as the crow flies.
Must be very bendy roads where you live!!!!!
Only problem with this theory for the discrepency is that the lay of he land (so to speak) makes very little difference. For both the service centre (west) and the dealer (south) the roads, while obviously not going in a straight line, make very little deviation from the direction of travel.
Calling up Google maps on the big screen and using a ruler (so not 100% accurate my any means), it is about 56 miles as the crow flies to the service centre and 60 miles to the dealer.
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As the crow flies distances.
There is a database of postcodes along with the longitude and latitude of the centre of the postcode. Using some trigonometry it is possible to calculate the distances between two postcode centres. Of course the accuracy is variable between very large post code areas (say Aberdeen) and those found in Central London.
Oddly, when I search for my postcode, my home is bang smack geographical centre of the postcode, the marker is in my back garden on the fence line between us and our neighbours - so my accuracy is pretty good lol.
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As the crow flies distances. - so my accuracy is pretty good lol.
.... but you still won't be travelling like a crow - which we believe goes in a bee-line .. :-)
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Lots more evidence to show that franchised dealers are on borrowed time.
All the manufacturers want to 'own' the relationship with the customer directly, because cars are becoming appliances as we enter the hybrid and EV age. I dont personally see Tesla as an innovative company when it comes to their products, but their sales and aftersales model is quite innovative, and the customers like it.
BMW are now looking at building cars in set specifications, and the owner pays subscriptions to enable the features they want through the software in the car - eg. heated seats. Yes, BMW are really thinking of doing that. Speeds up production process, and generates more aftersales revenue. Also makes used car buying, and selling, simpler in the long run.
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I was in a major uk department store looking at TV sets in their audio dept.. It was a potentially big purchase, the first new TV I had bought for 10 years( not as expensive as a car, but ,like buying a car, a rare occurrence).
I asked the salesman what the dimensions of a specific set were and he told me he was unable to tell me because he didn't have a ruler.
He was indeed honest.
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Still dithering about the new car and called a dealer on Saturday about a pre-reg vehicle.
Confirmed it was 10 miles only on the clock as I had to travel 20 miles to get there (15 as the crow flies) and made an appointment for this morning.
Got to the garage to find the car had done 5000 hard miles by the look of it!
I asked the sales man why the mileage was not as it was confirmed on the phone yesterday and he said that we know you will buy it anyway as it’s such a good deal!
It was a good deal but buying from someone dishonest is just asking for trouble down the road!
Edited by Zippy123 on 06/07/2020 at 13:17
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I asked the sales man why the mileage was not as it was confirmed on the phone yesterday and he said that we know you will buy it anyway as it’s such a good deal!
Half of me wasn't happy at the use of the expression "lying salesmen" in the topic's title, and the other half realised that I did secretly feel the same but wasn't keen to actually say it ... but when I see zippy's account of the salesman saying what he did (above), it annoys me quite a lot and wonder at zippy's restraint in not teliing the salesman his fortune.
Edited by KB. on 06/07/2020 at 13:56
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Still dithering about the new car and called a dealer on Saturday about a pre-reg vehicle. Got to the garage to find the car had done 5000 hard miles by the look of it!
How does a pre-reg vehicle clock up 5K miles without being reg ?
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'Pre-reg' normally means registered to the dealer (to improve sales stats) but not actually used. Should be delivery mileage only.
This one sounds like an ex-demonstrator, or else one which the salesman has used to take his wife / family / popsy on holiday.
Assuming the accepted meaning of pre-reg, that really is a lie.
Edited by Avant on 06/07/2020 at 14:50
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'Pre-reg' normally means registered to the dealer (to improve sales stats) but not actually used. Should be delivery mileage only.
This one sounds like an ex-demonstrator, or else one which the salesman has used to take his wife / family / popsy on holiday.
Assuming the accepted meaning of pre-reg, that really is a lie.
I'm wondering whether in the case above the sales person 'reset' the mileage back to 10 (why is it nearly always 10?) but couldn't be botehred to pay for a full valet of the car to at least try and make the deception look authentic?
Edited by Engineer Andy on 07/07/2020 at 09:16
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As I’m reading it, the car was showing 5000 miles, it looked like they’d been hard miles. Incorrectly described but not clocked.
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Have they got a review page on their website/FB page/etc?
Just saying..
Tell them what you think..
Edited by groaver on 06/07/2020 at 14:56
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When I was car hunting last year I was careful to find a 1.4 VAG car to avoid the 1.5 kangaroo issue.
During the test drive of the 1.4 Golf I asked the salesman if they had much trouble with the 1.5 engines. After initial denial he said they had actually had a few returned by customers but not to worry as he "couldn't recall" a single Golf being affected.
"But this is a 1.4" I said.
"Oh is it?" He replied. So much for product knowledge.
I did wonder if the same "I couldn't recall a problem with model X" words were a crude get out for whichever car they were demo-ing with the 1.5 engine. As far as I am aware the Golf was affected just as much as other models.
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For balance, in 2005 we needed a new car quickly. Vauxhall haD let us down on a MK1 end of line Zafira but returned our deposit very quickly. They did make it clear that supplies of the outgoing car were limited.
We went to VW armed with the best prices we could find on the internet and further afield dealers and test drove a new Touran 1.9tdi. Mrs Z loved it.
The dealer gave us some prices and we dropped the internet prices, with much back and forth (no px) we came to a very good deal on a cancelled order. With 2 young kids we were on a tight budget and the Touran was more expensive than the Zafira.
The car was on the continent still and the dealer kept his promise to call Mrs Z daily with updates - like it’s left the factory, it’s at the port, it’s in the UK,, it’s with us for PDi.
When it arrived it was over spec, it had a 6 x CD changer worth a few hundred at the time and a few other bits that were not standard. The extras came to £900 odd. The dealer pointed them out but said “you paid the agreed price for the car on the system, enjoy”!
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Let's not disparage car salesmen - after all it can offer you a good living if you are a shrewd business man. Bernie Eccles bone certainly did well from humble beginnings with his influential career in F1 racing until his retirement ! The old advice still applies as always namely, Caveat Emptor. I.E. Do your homework before visiting the car dealer, know what you want, do not rely on the salesman for any technical details, just make sure when you have taken test drives in all your shortlisted cars that you drive a hard bargain for your final choice and be prepared to walk away if the salesman and his manager will not give you a good discount.
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Lying goes with the territory. Dad has his car serviced last week, which he had paid for the year before to benefit from a significant saving.
Due to Covid the dealer was closed when the service was due, website stated not to worry and book it in once they open,
Went to pick up the car and he was asked to pay as the voucher expired at the end of April!
A call to Honda customer services and it transpired the garage had claimed the money for the service from Honda weeks ago.
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That is not just lying, it is attempted fraud.
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Did your dad actually pay again when told the voucher had expired.
If he paid the garage is 100% guilty of fraud and he should immediately take out a case in the courts for reimbursement of the money. A solicitor may advise there is a case for damages as well since they appear to have acted fraudulently.
If he did not pay he has suffered no loss thus no case to answer but I would ensure all and sundry know how dishonest this garage is and never darken their doors again.
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A solicitor may advise there is a case for damages as well since they appear to have acted fraudulently.
So the threat of a solicitor persuades the garage to pay up, and you then pay the solicitor for his advice ?
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A solicitor may advise there is a case for damages as well since they appear to have acted fraudulently.
So the threat of a solicitor persuades the garage to pay up, and you then pay the solicitor for his advice ?
Some solicitors used to do a free 1/2 hour advice service. Alternatively Consumer advice may have a proforma for you to complete to start legal procedures.
Hopefully if Honda are a honourable company they will have the garage reimburse you and further compensate for being lieing b******s.
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He didn't pay, it was just hassle getting it sorted as it needed a call to Honda HQ, who were excellent.
The dealer appears to be moving to another brand, so obviously have no loyalty to Honda or their customers.
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