BHP Doesn't mean much

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 11:58
BHP Doesn't mean much - joegrundy

Car has just passed MOT with no problems (175k miles) and got treated to a valet. I had been idly considering what to replace her with (if new, Dacia or Kia Picanto) and got to thinking about modern cars (as you do) and alleged power outputs.

Being of a certain age, I look at (for example) a Fiesta with 100 or 125 bhp. That's the sort of power to weight ratio of a sports car but now seems to be the norm.

When I first started as an old bill 40 years ago we had Escort 1100s as panda cars. (?60 something bhp?). Adequate when driven properly.

2001 I bought a Citroen Xsara 1.4, 75 bhp on a deal and used it for work (blues and twos fitted). Never felt it was too slow.

I read with interest the HJ review of the latest Picanto. 67 bhp I think, but plenty of power, combined with good handling. I drive my son's Sandero (1.2, 75 bhp) and it's a hoot on normal everyday roads when you know what you're doing.

As I once again follow Elsie and Betty in their 100 bhp hatchback on their way to M&S for a new cardie at a steady 42 mph on 60 mph limit roads (safe at more than that) I can't help but wonder ...

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 12:12
BHP Doesn't mean much - Manatee

Spot on Joe.

I had one of those Mk2 Escorts for a while, 1100 'Popular Plus'. I think the Plus was the brown nylon seats.

They were actually 41bhp. To be fair they were a bit on the slow side - mine struggled to reach 70mph on the M621 from Leeds to Gildersome, which was mildly uphill.

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 12:18
BHP Doesn't mean much - gordonbennet

Headline BHP as never been top of my agenda, nor stated 0-60 times, those figures might give you an idea if a car is fast as such, but you have no idea how pleasurable or not any car is until you've driven it and seen for yourself how the power is delivered, torque is the figure and from what revs available in any useful percentage, preferably in lbs ft so i have something to compare,

There is nothing more unpleasant than having to drive a vehicle hard to make any sort of progress, when not only noise and being in the right gear at any given moment are two constants, or whan a car is scrabbling for grip.

The recent purchase of a Forester XT for SWMBO, replacing her Outback H6, prompted this comment from her the other day, she loves how they drive because they just do everything she asks without any drama, that kind of sums up what i want from vehicles too, just be up to and preferably on top of the job.

I'm not so sure you'll like some modern petrol engines once you've got over the initial honeymoon period, especially the smaller NA units, they are seriously lacking in low engine rev torque, and i have found some Diesels to be little better, having no useable power below turbo spool up revs ie roughly 1800 rpm, frustating drives.

Those Escorts you mention Joe, they couldn't keep up with a certain MAN artic of year 1986 vintage, either acceleration or top end, thankfully...and i shall say no more about that..:-)

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 12:31
BHP Doesn't mean much - joegrundy

GB:

"Those Escorts you mention Joe, they couldn't keep up with a certain MAN artic of year 1986 vintage, either acceleration or top end, thankfully...and i shall say no more about that..:-)"

Well, you had to learn which battles were worth fighting :)

And, for a regular old bill (I became a specialist CID) it was a bit like a dog chasing a car. What are you going to do if you catch it? Thankfully many HGV drivers showed me plating certs and stuff in return for a signature on the tacho disc!

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 12:41
BHP Doesn't mean much - RT
i have found some Diesels to be little better, having no useable power below turbo spool up revs ie roughly 1800 rpm, frustating drives.

There's still no substitute for capacity - I drive a 2.2 tonne SUV with a 3.0 turbo-diesel - it'll go weeks without the tachometer exceeding 2,000 rpm - it'll sit at 1,200 rpm in 8th towing a 1.5 tonne caravan at 50 mph although I do just go for a hooligan drive occasionally!

My son's previous Vectra-C Estate and present Octavia Estates both have 2.0 150 PS engines - I wouldn't want to go down on capacity from there.

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 12:54
BHP Doesn't mean much - Manatee

There's still no substitute for capacity - I drive a 2.2 tonne SUV with a 3.0 turbo-diesel - it'll go weeks without the tachometer exceeding 2,000 rpm - it'll sit at 1,200 rpm in 8th towing a 1.5 tonne caravan at 50 mph

So what you are saying is that it has a lot more power available than it needs :)

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 13:14
BHP Doesn't mean much - joegrundy

So what you are saying is that it has a lot more power available than it needs :)

That's the point I'm making, I think.

Nowadays we seem to have far more cars producing far more power than needed - or even used. For example, take Betty out in her 100bhp Fiesta and show her what it can do - she'd be horrified. A 50 bhp modern version of the Anglia would do her just fine.

Modern day driving is a challenge so often because of the volume of traffic. Following some dildo at 40 when they could safely be doing closer to 60 is frustrating and dangerous - particlarly when their car is capable of far higher performance.

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 14:22
BHP Doesn't mean much - Finguz

Don't forget that modern cars are quite bit heavier than the older ones. Also if your car has plenty of power, you can pass the 'dildo' far more safely.

Edited by Finguz on 16/03/2018 at 14:25

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 13:18
BHP Doesn't mean much - RT

There's still no substitute for capacity - I drive a 2.2 tonne SUV with a 3.0 turbo-diesel - it'll go weeks without the tachometer exceeding 2,000 rpm - it'll sit at 1,200 rpm in 8th towing a 1.5 tonne caravan at 50 mph

So what you are saying is that it has a lot more power available than it needs :)

More accurately, I'm saying it has plenty of torque so that full throttle doesn't need to be used.

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 14:30
BHP Doesn't mean much - skidpan

They were actually 41bhp. To be fair they were a bit on the slow side - mine struggled to reach 70mph on the M621 from Leeds to Gildersome, which was mildly uphill.

Escorts of that vintage weighed the same as a wet paper bag thus with 41 bhp were adequate (just). My last Mk 2 had a 81 BHP 1600 and at the time that made it one of the quicker "ordinary" cars on the road. 0-60 quoted as 10 seconds and decent flexibilty, you need 110 or 120 bhp to get similar performace today with cars being heavier.

And that is where the Fabia 110 PS 1.0 TSI that we have just ordered comes in. The 110 PS it has is a decent increase over the old Mk 2 but the 148 lbs of torque it has (2000 - 3500 rpm) is virtually double that of the old 1600 x-flow. That is why it drives so well with no need to thrash it to get good performance. The Escort would average about 32 mpg, the Fabia did 53 mpg during the day we had it and used it on mixed roads for mixed trips.

That is real progress.

Choose your new car wisely and look beyond the headline figures and more at the spread of power/torque. Then you will find we have never had it so good.

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 16:11
BHP Doesn't mean much - Avant

Like the Fiesta that Joe mentions, SWMBO's Audi A1 has 125 bhp.

So did the 1950 Austin A125 Sheerline, a huge two-ton family car whose 4-litre engine must have had bags of torque. I never drove a Sheerline but I can remember that my first car (a 14-year-old Austin A50) would go up quite substantial hills in top (4th) gear.

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 17:35
BHP Doesn't mean much - SteVee

so what does BHP mean ? It's really torque x engine-speed.
That engine speed component means that the max BHP (the figure that's always quoted) is towards the very top end of the rev-range. Few people drive their car at that engine speed, with their foot on the floor - and any turbo fully spooled up.
So a 100 BHP engine may be almost identical to a 125 BHP engine of the same capacity - except at the very top end. It might even be preferable at lower revs.

I've said before that I wish engine manufacturers would quote figures that were more usable, I'd like to see a power band quoted where the engine produces withing 15percent (or some quoted figure) of max torque from engine speed x to y. Further, I'd like this quoted in 'octaves', absolute revs is not that useful either. - I could understand a musical instrument that had 3 octaves and each note of reasonably equal volume, I really wouldn't want to find any duff notes moving up the scale - but some engines are just like that. Using this, a diesel would be about an octave of very loud bass notes, whereas a Honda Civic type R would have a full 3 octaves, not quite as load as the turbo-diesel, but capable of some very good tunes !!

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 18:08
BHP Doesn't mean much - bazza

Yes it's far more useful to have a look at the comparative torque curves which are usually available on the web somewhere. These modern small turbo petrols are all producing max torque at a little over idle, and then a totally flat, perfect curve up to 4.5 to 5 k. Most impressive for ease of driving.

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 18:20
BHP Doesn't mean much - skidpan

Yes it's far more useful to have a look at the comparative torque curves which are usually available on the web somewhere.

A pretty drawing on the internet can be made up so why bother searching. What matters is how it drives and getting a good test drive over roads you are familiar with for at least 2 hours will tell you all you need to know.

An example. The wife fancied a Polo TSi 3 years ago and the 90 PS 1.2 was being very well received by the mags, decent power and a very good spread of torque. We did not expect the performance of the 1.4 TSi 140 Leon we had but we expected it to be way better than the 80 PS 1.2 Nissan Micra she had at the time. How wrong could we be, it was dreadfull, when we got back in the Micra it felt like a racing car. We ran away form the Polo.

Move on 3 years and we tried a Fabia with the new 1.0 110 PS TSi engine. It drove better than we expected and we have ordered one.

As I said above GET A TEST DRIVE.

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 19:47
BHP Doesn't mean much - badbusdriver

If you add more power to a car you make it faster in a straight line. If you want to utilise that extra power fully, you need bigger brakes, better tyres, stiffer suspension. All of which are going to add weight and make it less efficient.

If you reduce the weight of the car, you make it faster EVERYWHERE. You don't need bigger brakes, better tyres, or stiffer suspension as there is less mass to contain. In addition, the car will be more efficient.

Reducing the weight of a car is a much better way of improving its performance than adding power, a fact that is completely lost on most current manufacturers. Of course it is relatively cheap to add power, whereas reducing weight, certainly if you have to keep all the useless distracting gizmo's most modern drivers can't manage without, is going to be very expensive indeed!.

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 19:07
BHP Doesn't mean much - SLO76
After more than two decades flogging motors and having driven everything from 750 Pandas to supercars I enjoy nothing more than a good lightweight supermini with modest power but good nimble handling, soft ride and feelsome steering, add in a slick gearchange and it’s B road nirvana. A car is only really fun close to its limit and today’s modern high powered hot hatches and execs can’t be driven even close on the road.

Fiesta/Puma, Pug 106/205/306, Suzuki Swift, Rover Metro K series, Citroen AX/Saxo all a joy to drive despite tiny power output and simple running gear. Not easy to replicate these days sadly.
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Fri 16 Mar 2018 19:34
BHP Doesn't mean much - SteveLee
After more than two decades flogging motors and having driven everything from 750 Pandas to supercars I enjoy nothing more than a good lightweight supermini with modest power but good nimble handling, soft ride and feelsome steering, add in a slick gearchange and it’s B road nirvana. A car is only really fun close to its limit and today’s modern high powered hot hatches and execs can’t be driven even close on the road. Fiesta/Puma, Pug 106/205/306, Suzuki Swift, Rover Metro K series, Citroen AX/Saxo all a joy to drive despite tiny power output and simple running gear. Not easy to replicate these days sadly.

Yep, I enjoy driving cars like that too - in the modern era Daihatsu were the closest to those mentioned - light as a crisp packet and decent engines.- sadly Toyota have decided to pull the plug on European Daihatsu imports.

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