Advantages of deliberately size limited cars | Motoring discussion | Back Room Forum

Sun 31 Dec 2017 18:41

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - smallcar

I am thinking out loud here. You might wonder why I start with talking about washing machines but recently I bought a new one. One of the things that facilitates buying a new one is that the new machine is (at least in height and width) is the same size as the old one. We happy accept and indeed benefit from standardisation. It would be clearly annoying if you find out the manufacturer launches a new model 10mm bigger and 20mm taller as you’d have to rebuild your k****** or utility space. Yet we have accepted cars getting bigger, much bigger. If you see a regular mid size car of the 1970s like a Cortina or a Peugeot 305 next to a new car on the road it looks smaller in every dimension - particularly height and width. Yet I would challenge someone to say a new car is more spacious. I know a lot of the driver of this is euro ncap tests but I do wonder if it really is 100% of the explanation.

The consequence of ever larger cars is not being able to park then easily, the need to expand tarmac for them, losing front garden space, finding it difficult to manoeuvre them, finding them hard to see out of and place easily. I feel we are in a size race without much end. A desirable family car has gone from a bmw 5 series/Rover SD1 to an Audi Q7 or discovery in barely a generation. One weighs a almost twice the other and takes up probably 40/50% more space. It’s still carrying the same no of people.

So I ask would we benefit from at least some cars being restricted in their size?

Having visited Japan recently I admired their clear interest and government policy to maintain size limits for cars - this is most evident in the Kei class that has significant tax advantages - small cars that seem to account for over 40% Of the market there. Much of the Urban environment there is tailored to this size of car - so many Japanese homes have deliberately small driveways to accommodate such cars - allowing living and other space to be maximised (their houses are quite a bit bigger than ours in SqM) and road widths and tight corners are utilised to to minimise the amount of tarmac and space required for accessing homes and businesses. Car parks (of which there are many in Japanese cities) can be very compact.

Much of this configuration is worthwhile because consumers know that there would be future models available with the same dimensions so everything fits. From observing and even visiting a few dealerships these small cars lack for nothing in terms of technology or fit and finish. They are paragons of space efficiency and having travelled in one they accommodate western sized people perfectly adequately (and show that actually a lot of space is wasted in wider or longer cars eg bulky transmission tunnels gubbins between seats even on FWD cars). From what I could see the vast majority of these Kei cars are used just like our vehicles are - for popping to the shops, getting to work, pootling about and they are just doing it a bit more space efficiently than we are.

So could you see yourself buying into having a size limited car?

Edited by innerlondon on 31/12/2017 at 18:57

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Sun 31 Dec 2017 20:35

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - Glaikit Wee Scunner {P}

If they met the euro impact testing from all angles yes. But the energy to be absorbed in a crash has to go somewhere, and a narrow car is unlikely to be good at that. The Japanese have these small cars because the city parking spaces are only suitable/legal for the small cars afaik.

I sat in a little Honda Z car many years ago and it was so narrow it made my Mini feel spacious.

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Sun 31 Dec 2017 21:24

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - Andrew-T

If they met the euro impact testing from all angles yes.

I realise that one of a vehicle's properties is to protect the occupants in a crash, but like so many other things, there has to be a trade-off against several other desirables. Many of our less busy roads have not expanded to keep up with the ludicrous growth in vehicle size, making it sometimes extremely difficult to pass, where 20 years ago there was no problem.

I think a lot of it simply amounts to road greed by owners, encouraged by nearly all makers playing leapfrog or catch-up. It has to end somewhere. As regards the crash-safety parameter, being larger just increases the chances of two obese vehicles coming into collision.

Edited by Andrew-T on 31/12/2017 at 21:24

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Sun 31 Dec 2017 22:28

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - SteveLee

In Japan you have to prove you have a parking space adequately sized for the vehicle you've purchased before you can register it for use on the road. Similar regs are increasingly common in Chinese cities.

Given the massive over-population of some UK cities - I wouldn't bet against this sort of regulation appearing here soon - another problem caused by the political elite for which average Joe will have to pay through the nose to counter. A rather large supermarket has already calculated our population actually sits at over 80 million - way way above official statistics - and yet we still import 250,000+ people per year - when will this madness stop? Politicians keep yelling things like "Housing crisis", "NHS crisis", "school place crisis" - when they are merely symptoms of the real crisis - population - caused by the political elite in the first place - particularly Labour. Still, more people means the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, which is what the political establishment want for their own ends. The Tories want the cheap labour and Labour/LimpDumbs require continued poverty to provide clients for their politics of envy and justification for the teat-'til-grave nanny-state.

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Sun 31 Dec 2017 23:22

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - Andrew-T

Politicians keep yelling things like "Housing crisis", "NHS crisis", "school place crisis" - when they are merely symptoms of the real crisis - population - caused by the political elite in the first place - particularly Labour.

No, you can't blame overpopulation on the political elite, that's down to individuals of fertile age. You can blame them for never mentioning the problem, for obvious reasons - they would never get re-elected. I agree completely that overpopulation is at the root of almost all the other 'problems' we discuss here, and I can't see that changing, because of the fundamental inalienable right of every couple to procreate. Meanwhile much of the medical establishment works hard to make that possible for every woman up to the age of 60.

Daft I call it.

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Mon 1 Jan 2018 10:10

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - John F

No, you can't blame overpopulation on the political elite, that's down to individuals of fertile age.

.....few of whom in the undeveloped world have a choice. Compare the population of arab and african countries in the 1960s to what it is now. For a variety of reasons they have bred like rabbits - and then wonder why they are poor/starving. So 'we' provide aid, producing another larger generation which keeps poor.

Meanwhile much of the medical establishment works hard to make that possible for every woman up to the age of 60.

Not so. Mostly they have worked hard to promote and provide contraception in the developed and undeveloped world, often in the face of medieval religious disapproval. Only a tiny minority work in fertility clinics. If the population of the UK had likewise ballooned to 200m, we would be poor too. (sorry - off topic)

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Mon 1 Jan 2018 18:01

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - Andrew-T

<< Not so. Mostly they have ..... >>

No, you misinterpreted me, John. You are talking globally, while I and the previous poster (I think) were discussing the underestimated UK population.

As regards rabbit breeding, the main reason has been tradition and religious habit or doctrine, plus the long-standing expectation that many children would not survive, so plenty of spares were necessary. We (here) have grown out of that, possibly because religion has lost its stranglehold.

Yes - off topic ....

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Sun 31 Dec 2017 23:18

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - groaver

I owned and ran a Suzuki Cappuccino many years ago and adored it!

Alas children came along and rust was beginning to set in on outer panels so it got moved on. I would have the same type of car in a heartbeat if the UK was able to supply them. A small but feisty little motor, rear wheel drive and hard top or wind in the hair/head motoring.

Take a look at some of the current Kei cars and see how imaginative the Japanese are and how much fun some of the cars seem withour resorting to the, "My cars, faster, bigger, more aggresive looking than yours" standard that Europeans "love".

www.honda.co.jp/S660/

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Sun 31 Dec 2017 23:57

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - John Boy

www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_t2fyUpGNM

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Mon 1 Jan 2018 04:04

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - expat

People can always vote with their wallet and buy small cars however many do not (myself included). Each generation of cars seems bigger than that before. Corollas got bigger and then the Yaris appeared which was the size of the 1960's Corolla. Every new Mondeo seems bigger than the previous one. Car manufacturers make more profit from large cars than small ones. People are buying SUVs instead of cars. Some people buy the SUVs because they are taller and can see over small cars. Other people think they are safer in a bigger vehicle which leads to a sort of arms race in size. Most people just seem to like big vehicles. The government already tries to discourage them with fuel taxes and registration charges. That hasn't worked.

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Mon 1 Jan 2018 09:59

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - John F

. Car manufacturers make more profit from large cars than small ones.

Not always. Apparently BL lost money on every Mini. Most British large car manufacturers went bust. And VW lost squillions on the Bugatti Veyron. Even if only a small profit margin on small cars, the volume sold should make up for it.

Most people just seem to like big vehicles.

O-o-oh yes. The larger, faster and more comfortable the better. If I was richer I would have a Bentley Flying Spur. Small cars are OK for suburban runabouts and leaving in airport carparks but I'd feel not only uncomfortable but also unsafe in anything much smaller than our Focus. Hence my relatively cheap old A8 (similar seat and mechanics to a Spur).

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Mon 1 Jan 2018 04:19

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - liammcl

yup,
I absolutely can't fault my little peugeot 106.

Time, and time and time again, I have found parking places between cars, which the bigger cars just can't fit into.

3 point turns are so easy, in nearly all manner of offroads.

And the house thang, my car just fits into the yard at the back..

I really can't see any advantage of getting a longer , taller , or wider car ..
& with the back seats down, a fridge freezer will easily fit in...

and in 30+ years of motoring I have never had a head on smash,
I guess it must be because I am such an awesome driver ;)

One adjusts the speed and braking distance, to allow for the cars spec...and also the other idiots on the road.

Cheers
LIam

Edited by liammcl on 01/01/2018 at 04:25

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Mon 1 Jan 2018 08:46

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - movilogo

I always find width more challenging than the length.

However, a larger car automatically means it becomes wider too!

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Mon 1 Jan 2018 11:52

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - John Boy

Groaver said: Take a look at some of the current Kei cars and see how imaginative the Japanese are and how much fun some of the cars seem withour resorting to the, "My cars, faster, bigger, more aggresive looking than yours" standard that Europeans "love".

I agree with that. That little Honda S660 is just one example - all of them make me smile. I've become a fan of small cars since changing to one myself. They strike me as fun and more engaging to drive. Why would anyone want to drive a big barge if they don't need the space for people/things or have to travel vast distances every day? Kei specifications have forced designers to maximise the use of space. Some larger cars don't do it very well - Qashqais, for instance, feel claustrophobic to me.

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Mon 1 Jan 2018 17:33

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - smallcar

I just think a lot of car design is quite “lazy” - make everything A little bit bigger each time to claim the product is “improved”. It’s funny I other spheres of product Design you’re impressed if the product got smaller, thinner and neater (think radios, speakers, phones).

What I admire of the Japanese Kei system is a collective decision at a government level to limit car size which had a ton of collective AND personal benefits but it requires people to accept limits to their choice if they want the benefits. I’m just impressed that as a population they can be so collectively intelligent.

I assume Japanese people are also a little more sensible I not obsessing about safety as much as we we do now. Perhaps part of it is people don’t seem to drive fast there and few people commute long distance any car (toll roads make it as expensive as taking the train). So most people view a car as an efficient runabout and they price utility over size.

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Mon 1 Jan 2018 18:04

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - Ethan Edwards

There are lots of small cars for sale in the UK. Suzuki make lots of them. Swift new Ignis etc. But they remain uncommon sights on the road. Well round here in Essex that is. Bmw Mercs and Audi. Those "exclusive" brands being as common as muck round e're.

They're available it's just people on average don't want them.

Edited by Ethan Edwards on 01/01/2018 at 18:05

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Mon 1 Jan 2018 20:38

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - smallcar

I think part of it is people haven’t maintained their own size either - they’re all becoming supersized so have gone for larger cars.

Plus my experience of Essex is that it’s definitely one places where what you drive is how people perceive others and think of themselves. It takes someone of more robust personality to buy something compact and “only what I need” as opposed to “look at me it’s massive”.

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Mon 1 Jan 2018 18:16

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - P3t3r

I wonder whether we are at the end of it? I recently noticed that some of the recent cars are slightly smaller than their previous generation. For example, all of the dimensions for the VW Up are smaller than the VW Fox. Assuming that the numbers I'm reading are correct (ie. neither include mirrors), then the Up is 250mm smaller in width!

I also wonder how some of the 'luxury' cars get through 6'6" (approx 1980mm) width restrictions. I know of at least 3 of these restrictions near me and most of the 'luxury' cars are wider than this. Even if the road is wider than the restriction they must need to go quite slow to get through without causing damage.

In many ways my favourite car was my first (and oldest) car. The exterior dimensions made it much easier to drive (and faster on narrow roads) but the interior was larger and more practical than anything else I've owned. Performance wasn't great and it didn't have air con, but things have moved on since that car was made.

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Mon 1 Jan 2018 18:42

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - movilogo

>> I also wonder how some of the 'luxury' cars get through 6'6" (approx 1980mm) width restrictions.

By using a sat nav designed for HGVs :-)

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Mon 1 Jan 2018 21:15

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - FiestaOwner

I also wonder how some of the 'luxury' cars get through 6'6" (approx 1980mm) width restrictions. I know of at least 3 of these restrictions near me and most of the 'luxury' cars are wider than this. Even if the road is wider than the restriction they must need to go quite slow to get through without causing damage.

In that case, they shouldn't be proceeding past the width restriction signs!

These are circular signs with a red border and are an order (unless there is an exemption specified on a rectangular plate below the sign, for any particular vehicle or purpose).

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Mon 1 Jan 2018 22:13

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - Terry W

In the UK cars are status symbols. Status is driven by size, weight, speed, power, brand. In terms of real journey times they add little to nothing, particularly in town.

We need to be much clearer on the increased volume of traffic that could be supported if all vehicles were smaller. And evaluate the potential saving in further investment in the road and parking network.

Manufacturers are happy to support these perceptions. It is easier to make money from a large expensive vehicle - small cars with good performance/equipment and a low price demand far more creativity in design to make it all fit.

To change behaviours will require massive taxes on larger cars - not a few hundred on the initial prurchase which is probably company funded, but a 25% + initial purchase tax.

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Mon 1 Jan 2018 23:17

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - Andrew-T

Manufacturers are happy to support these perceptions. It is easier to make money from a large expensive vehicle - small cars with good performance/equipment and a low price demand far more creativity in design to make it all fit.

It doesn't cost an awful lot more to put together a large car than a small one, but you can charge more for the big one. So it makes sense (to the maker) to make bigger cars. In the last century most people bought small cars, which for the makers meant some economy of scale. Now half the population drive small cars and the rest go for a chunky imitation LR (or even a real one, like the one that set fire to the multistorey in L'pool). No wonder the makers keep churning them out.

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Tue 2 Jan 2018 11:48

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - smallcar

I think also we are suffering now from manufacturers all jumping on the same bandwagon of SUVs. I’d love to know having ditched making saloon cars ans normal estates and in some cases even family sized hatchbacks how manufacturers ever find out whether any customers actually want one? Do we all just go into show rooms and say “I don’t want any of these!!!” And hope the numpty writes it down?

I for one would love a Kei car so I’m biased. In japan as far as I could see they retailed for about £11k and all of them were made in Japan itself (went past at least one plant - think it was owned by Suzuki. The mini TT shaped Honda S600 looked v cool in the flesh.

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Tue 2 Jan 2018 14:22

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - groaver

I for one would love a Kei car so I’m biased. In japan as far as I could see they retailed for about £11k and all of them were made in Japan itself (went past at least one plant - think it was owned by Suzuki. The mini TT shaped Honda S600 looked v cool in the flesh.

I would love one too. This one's a tad pricey having been a Cappuccino conversion:

www.goo-net-exchange.com/usedcars/SUZUKI/CAPPUCCIN...l

I don't think I would stop laughing everytime I drove it!

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Tue 2 Jan 2018 18:08

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - P3t3r

I for one would love a Kei car so I’m biased. In japan as far as I could see they retailed for about £11k and all of them were made in Japan itself (went past at least one plant - think it was owned by Suzuki. The mini TT shaped Honda S600 looked v cool in the flesh.

I would also like a Kei car. I loved the Diahatsu Copen. Never been in one but if they kept doing them a bit longer in the UK I would have test driven one and probably bought one. Tiny engine, cheap to run, adequate performance, easy to park and great to look at.

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Tue 2 Jan 2018 13:20

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - barney100

I can put my car in the garage but can't open the doors to get out.

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Tue 2 Jan 2018 13:49

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - smallcar

So ever increasing car size leads to you not being able to park efficiently which then litters the street with extra cars. So private and public benefits are reduced.

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Tue 2 Jan 2018 19:13

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - oldroverboy.

So ever increasing car size leads to you not being able to park efficiently which then litters the street with extra cars. So private and public benefits are reduced.

Yesterday, We were 5 adults, 2 very large suitcases (3o Kilos) (the ladies) plus 3 bags too big for carry on, one carry on and various handbags, carrier bags of food to avoid the c**p air transat catering, all in the kia venga.. false floor removed and also parcel shelf..

Various bits in the car with us...

Tardis or what. easy to park...

5 up driving around for 12 days.. over 1200 miles.. 38mpg.

It'll do me fine.

Kia 1.4 2 venga manual petrol.

Edited by oldroverboy. on 02/01/2018 at 19:15

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Wed 3 Jan 2018 21:13

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - smallcar

Impressive - and no giant SUV in sight!

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Thu 4 Jan 2018 18:52

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - Sofa Spud

If more people drove smaller cars that would reduce congestion as well as being more economical. So I think that size should be reflected in taxation. Cars above the size threshold would pay a bit more VED on top of whatever they currently pay. I'd set the threshold so that Fiesta, Corsa, Polo etc. come under it. Electric cars woud be exempt initially, as an incentive to speed the changeover to zero emissions and renewable energy but eventually the "size tax" would apply to them too, since a bigger car takes up more space whetever its propulsion system.

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Thu 4 Jan 2018 19:01

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - oldroverboy.

Most larger cars are already taxed via Co2.. they emit more so are taxed accordingly.

Really want to destroy what is left of the British motor industry, which has no small cars produced here, but lots of large expensive cars...

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Thu 4 Jan 2018 19:56

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - Terry W

We need to be clear weather smaller caars deliver real benefits - reduced energy consumption, increased road capacity, increased parking capacity.

Whether anything should be done needs some consensus although govenment may anyway mandate change even though not all will be happy.

We would be advised to respond now with cars which will meet UK and export market needs. Continuing to manufacture cars for which demand is falling as a result of taxation, legislation and public opinion is plain stupid, head in the sand behaviour.

Those who genuinely need 4wd will eitherhave to pay a significantly increased cost - or perhaps create a separate agricultural vehicle class -eg: max speed of 60 mph, mandatory full 4wd etc

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Thu 4 Jan 2018 20:14

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - alan1302

We need to be clear weather smaller caars deliver real benefits - reduced energy consumption, increased road capacity, increased parking capacity.

Reduce enery - yes, they do. Less in use and less to manufacure and transport.

Increase road capaity/parking - yes. Small cars mean more can fit in a space.

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Thu 4 Jan 2018 20:18

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - alan1302

Most larger cars are already taxed via Co2.. they emit more so are taxed accordingly.

Really want to destroy what is left of the British motor industry, which has no small cars produced here, but lots of large expensive cars...

Mini is made here and so is the Leaf - both small cars and the Honda Jazz. Think the Juke is as well which is a small car.

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Thu 4 Jan 2018 23:04

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - Andrew-T

I think that size should be reflected in taxation. Cars above the size threshold would pay a bit more VED on top of whatever they currently pay.

Punters interested in buying large cars are unlikely to be put off by adding less than 1% to the cost - at least until the car gets old enough to be cheap.

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Fri 5 Jan 2018 11:05

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - movilogo

>> I think that size should be reflected in taxation

Extend that rule to passengers' weights when flying =:o)

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Fri 5 Jan 2018 13:58

Advantages of deliberately size limited cars - Andrew-T

>> I think that size should be reflected in taxation

Extend that rule to passengers' weights when flying =:o)

Definitiely - given the size of the seats provided, that makes real sense. Or you could try and fit passengers into a permitted space at check-in, like the cabin luggage :-)

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