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Random question - irrational rant time - jamie745

We keep getting told taxes are implimented to discourage us from doing something. Fuel Duty is to discourage us from using cars, VED is to discourage us from having nice cars, plastic bag tax is threatened to put us off buying plastic bags etc so i have a question...

Is income tax designed to discourage people from going to work?

No real reason ive brought this up but going through paperwork today including payslips i appear to have funded an entire Warhead for the Government this year*

* This is probably not true

Random question - irrational rant time - RT

The primary purpose of taxation is to raise revenue - only a few taxes are deliberately punative like fuel duty and cigarette duty - income tax isn't !!!

Random question - irrational rant time - Bromptonaut

Taxes are mostly designed to raise money. Targetting them to incentivise actions/behaviours seen as postive and discourage those viewed as negative is an old political tool. If not the taxes themselves then reliefs were used eg for marriage, children and buying ones own home. OK MIRAS was rooted in a relief against tax on the imputed value of the house but for the last two decades of it''s existence it was to encourage house purchase. Colleagues who ranted about subsidised Council Hous were always good for a wind up by reminding them that their mortgage interest and the premiums on their endowments benefitted far more than the average joe in Alderman's Villas.

Income tax is at what are, in UK historic terms, very low levels. I've paid a basic rate well over 30p in the pound and it was into the nineties before the system was simplified to just two or three rates. Part of the rationale is to incentivise work.

Random question - irrational rant time - jamie745

I wasnt expecting such a serious thread but thanks anyway.

The primary purpose of taxation is to raise revenue - only a few taxes are deliberately punative like fuel duty and cigarette duty - income tax isn't !!!

People paying the 50% tax may disagree with you there as some economists believe it doesnt raise the Treasury any more money long term so its only purpose is a political weapon to appease the left, but thats an interesting discussion for another day.

If not the taxes themselves then reliefs were used eg for marriage

Thats always been one of my gripes, why do you get a tax break if you're married? You've already got two salaries coming into the house, what makes you so special because you bought a ring? Ridiculous.

*grabs popcorn and sits back*

Go!

:)

Random question - irrational rant time - Bromptonaut

Historically the relief on marriage recognised the man's responsibilty to keep his wife. Women who worked gave up on marriage, in some employments they were required to resign a sitution that pertained until the sixties.

Cameron's proposal to return such a releif is founded wholly in Daily Mailesque morality. Somehow getting married automatically makes you a better couple and much better parents. Unfortunately the rest of the population have decided otherwise and he's on very thin ice with a lot of voters.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 13/11/2011 at 17:45

Random question - irrational rant time - bonzo dog

Taxation has one (or more) objectives:

  1. to raise revenue
  2. to influence consumption (beahviour)
  3. to redistribute income & wealth

There is of course many a debate about which catagory certain taxes fall into eg the 50% income tax & the tax on cigarettes

Daily Mailesque morality

Always makes me smile when people use such phrases, as though reading the Daliy Mail somehow means you're unable to think for yourself.

You see Bromptonaut, getting married does not make you a better person & better parents. It generally means you are a more committed couple hence will make better parents. Fiscal support for marriage is not intended to encourage couples to marry but to encourage them to remain married when times become difficult.

Random question - irrational rant time - bonzo dog

Fiscal support for marriage is not intended to encourage couples to marry but to encourage them to remain married when times become difficult

Wrote this whilst rushing.

Should have said .... to encourage couples to remain together; married couples have far longer relationships than unmarried ones

Random question - irrational rant time - Bobbin Threadbare

For the married couples' allowance, one of you must have been born before April 1935 anyway.

Random question - irrational rant time - jamie745

For the married couples' allowance, one of you must have been born before April 1935 anyway.

Yes i was referring to the bibble babble spoken by the Government over the last year or so about 'recognising marriage in the tax system'.

Random question - irrational rant time - Bromptonaut

Daily Mailesque morality

Always makes me smile when people use such phrases, as though reading the Daliy Mail somehow means you're unable to think for yourself.

You see Bromptonaut, getting married does not make you a better person & better parents. It generally means you are a more committed couple hence will make better parents. Fiscal support for marriage is not intended to encourage couples to marry but to encourage them to remain married when times become difficult.

And warring couples are going to stay together for the basic rate tax on £1250?. I'm sorry I don't buy that. It's about Cameron pandering to what some of the papers see as the 'silent majority'.

My shilling says he and they are wrong and that Joe Voter takes a dim view of politicos judging the morals of them or their children who've managed quite happily without a piece of paper.

Random question - irrational rant time - jamie745

It generally means you are a more committed couple hence will make better parents.

Not everybody wants to live the generic life of get married, have mortgage, have 2.4 children, save for pension, die, box, burial, the end. It seems the tax system may aim to punish those who do not conform to such a lifestyle.

I once kicked a woman out of my house for even daring to mention living together. My current lady is 'sneak moving in' as i find little things of hers everyday, she appears to have taken over an entire drawer without me having any participation in the planning process. And the stuff in the bathroom, dear god i almost cant find my own moisturiser and face cloths for her stuff.

to encourage them to remain married when times become difficult.

Why would the Government have any interest in you remaining together? Why do they care?

Random question - irrational rant time - bonzo dog

My shilling says ........... that Joe Voter takes a dim view of politicos judging the morals of them

Agreed

their children who've managed quite happily

But they are not doing so, in respect of couples breaking up, "father-less" families, young (& not so young) girls with 3 or 4 kids from different men.

Whilst this may not yet be the norm, it is fast becoming so & is so in many areas of the UK.

Why is this happening is the question & one possible reason is that the state supported married couples. As it happens I don't think that a tax allowance will encourage marriage but the removal of it certainly gave the state's blessing to the idea that non-married families of whatever form are just as much a suitable framwork for raising children as the married family. I guess the govt is now trying to reverse this stance & "put their money where their mouth is"

Random question - irrational rant time - Bromptonaut

Personal interest; ‘Mrs’ B and I have been together for 29 years and remain defiantly unmarried. Neither of us have a God before whom to affirm our relationship, nor did we feel impelled to do so before friends or family. We’ve brought up two kids in a secure home. Finances etc arranged so that survivor takes all on first death and she will get a partners pension when I die. The only reason I can think of to marry would be IHT, but we’re way below the threshold and tax planning seems a pretty scrappy reason for doing so anyway.

Probably 20% of my kid’s contemporaries are from similar backgrounds. It’s a new norm. Society need not concern itself except that government needs to develop the spine to legislate for it. Instead we have the Courts trying sort out property issues by the law of equity as in last week’s Supreme Court case.

Couples breaking up leaving fatherless families are one problem. The never had a live in father/kids with different men is a different one. Neither is a fiscal issue for the tax system (though Fathers paying maintenance is for Social Security).

The first might be addressed if mediation were to be the norm rather than separation and divorce. That would need a cultural change of which I am not optimistic.

The second frankly is a question of education and employment. Too many young women have low self esteem and poor life chances and see having a baby at 16 as a way out. Education needs to be more relevant to those for who 5 A* to C at GCSE is a pipe dream and the job market has to react accordingly. Again I’m not optimistic.

Tax breaks will only benefit couples who are working and will go overwhelmingly to those already on average earnings or better. We need a government that's prepared to read social research and act joined up across the piece in ways that might upset noisy elements in both parties and the media.

Which is why I'm not optimistic.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 14/11/2011 at 13:52

Random question - irrational rant time - jamie745

I find it hilarious that in 2011 people still think having a piece of paper which gives you both the same surname somehow makes you a better person or will mean children have a lovely happy life as a result of this. My parents never got round to getting married until i was about 10, its not that they didnt want to, they just never got round to it, had better things to get on with and spend money on.

What you're forgetting is what about those of us who dont want children? Should we be punished by the tax system for not being married with kids? I hate children (they're ignorant and small) and im someone who has no intention of getting married, women exist purely to take half your stuff in a messy legal battle and serve no other purpose.

Random question - irrational rant time - Bobbin Threadbare

............Or those of us who are married (one of us has a 'God') and won't have any children.

Random question - irrational rant time - jamie745

I bet you cant wait to find him in bed with your sister so as you can get your hands on that Celica!

Random question - irrational rant time - Bobbin Threadbare

No it's only the 140bhp Mk 7 and not the 190bhp one.