I dislike 4X4's, but that is generalisation of my feelings a bit. It is just 4X4's are thought of as having very bad characteristics. It is a shame that some like the fiat panda etc don't fit into this steriotype. That is a big part of the aurgument - 4X4's are unjustly steriotyped.
4X4's are not the bad guys and are underservadly persecuted and should not be banned, hower I am all for cars that don't intimidate people, crash over speed bumps with abandon and do 15MPG. What we should do is to impose taxes on fuel guzzlers and promote stuff that makes us all feel safer, for the benifit of incluse living. - Unfortunatly in this quest for inclusive living we demonise all 4X4's.
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Torque means nothing without RPM
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I think this is a good idea. It will oblige the manufacturers to be more ingenious and at least it's not a proposal for a bogus tax. And we'll all pay for it, too.
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It will result in millions more driving round un-taxed/un-registered.Same result with road pricing.
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What is this pointless obsession everyone has with carbon emissions?
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Buy yourself that city car now and avoid the rush!
What is striking me is that manufacturers are a canny bunch and if you think for one minute they dont have contingency plans for these measures, you would be somewhat naive.
Yes cars will have to change slightly and perhaps we will see more cars like the Smart Roadster return to take over where larger more powerful cars once ruled.
What is worth noting is that the CO2 emissions alone wont stop sportscars - look at the latest Caterhams running modern Ford units which are designed to meet regulations - the Caterham esp being so light isnt bad on fuel at all so the 1.25 litre engine from the Fiesta in a much lighter car may well fall below the 120 mark for CO2 - this would still be a quick car if not lightening quick. Same could be said of Lotus with the Elise.
It will be interesting to see what measures affect commercials aswell.
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Is this from the same body who want to make daytime running lights compulsory?
With dipped headlight on the electrical load on the system is in the region of 150watts (2x55 dipped beams, 4x5 tail, 2x5 numberplate,2x5 front side) there is probably a couple more for instruments.
If I assume that the engine is 33% efficient it will consume about 450/500 watts of fuel to drive the compulsory lighting. How many grammes per mile of co2 is that?
It is just another example of bureaucratic stupidity to me, and another reason to see "global warming" as bluff and counter bluff.
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They'll have us in pedal cars if were not too careful :)
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I think its already happening that 4X4s are on the way out. I was talking only yesterday to the man who owns a garage just down the road from me.
His forecourt for some reason probably as we live in a farming area was always about 50% 4X4 vehicles until the last few months.
There wasnt one on the forecourt yesterday and during our conversation asked him why he now had none.
His answer was that the bottom had dropped out of sales in our market town and he wouldnt buy them in any more. Give it another year he said and you won't be able to give them away.
All the cars he had now were small economical types which according to him were the ones he could turn over quickly.
wemyss
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I can confirm the garage owner is right. I'm looking for one at the moment and there are some cracking deals out there - mainly from traders, and for 8-12 year old vehicles. Private sellers don't seem ready to bite the bullet and advertise the car for what its really worth.
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I am all for cutting emissions etc., but I don't think the politicians are doing the right things.
I don't think sports cars won't be priced off the road. There are some sports cars available with some very low emissions, and there's nothing stopping the manufacturers designing more like them. With the exception of very high performance cars I think sports cars are generally quite green. Sports cars aren't normally heavy, especially if you compare them to 4x4's.
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I can see that there will be a lot of Xc90s, land cruisers, Jeeps, and discos etc for very low prices soon. Working type 4x4s eg the landrover defender, and some of the double cabs will stay at similar prices.
If anything i can see a shift to two wheels and more motorbikes on the road especialy with increasing congestion. I need the of road capacity and towing ability of my pick up so will keep it regardless.
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I've always thought it unfair to single out 4x4's as gas guzzlers when some are more economical than many large luxury saloons.
If cars are to pay a price for their environmental impact, then they should be taxed according to their fuel consumption (as measured under agreed conditions).
If they are to be charged on a scale for parking then they should be charged be length!
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Also, if 4x4's face a big tax premium just for being 4-wheel drive, that will create a big enough demand for a manufacturers to produce 4x2 'loophole' versions of their SUV's for the Chelsea tractor market.
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Sofa Spud - We are already taxed according to our cars fuel consumption - fuel duty.
I'm appalled at what's going on with all these "green policies" - I'm starting to think it's best to leave the UK (and Europe) and go and live somewhere where there's no idiotic left-wing politicians preaching to us that we shouldn't be driving 4x4s and sports cars etc as we are ruining the planet - unfortunately it seems they're everywhere. They conveniently forget the earth's warmed and cooled throughout its history and the idea that carbon emissions cause the earth to warm up is crazy. Despite what idiots like Al Gore etc would have us beleive. Rant over!
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Fuel in the UK is as highly taxed taxed as any purchase made anywhere in the world.
Both road pricing and a "4 x 4" tax would simply be 'pouring petrol on to the flames'. Those who are happy to pay £1 for 20p's worth of fuel have sufficient funds to ignore further taxes.
I think only political pressure, akin to the change in view of drink/driving since the 'good old days', will alter people's behaviour. The anti 4 x 4 group is increasing daily, whether based on good reasoning or not.
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Both road pricing and a "4 x 4" tax would simply be 'pouring petrol on to the flames'. Those who are happy to pay £1 for 20p's worth of fuel have sufficient funds to ignore further taxes.
Sounds like a perfect reason to tax them then...
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>>Despitewhat idiots like Al Gore etc would have us beleive.
Al Gore may or may not be an idiot, I have no idea, but unless your IQ is up there in a galaxy far far away you're making a mistake to call people who oppose your view "idiots." Is Stephen Hawking an idiot for instance?
news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070117/ap_on_sc/hawking
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VW are doing a Golf GT that is supercharged and has a turbo, giving it 170bhp from a 1.4 litre unit, which seems increadible - what it shows as far as I'm concerned is that technical inovation can work around technical & legal obsticals. Thinking about it, if VW can do that with a 1.4 litre unit, surely it is possible to produce say 300BHP from say a 2 litre unit, so maybe sports cars will just get cleaner?
I have no issues in 4x4s being used where neccesary, and love speeding incesantly in my car but am conscious that it doesn't feel right for individuals (myself included) to be creating surplus greenhouse gasses just for the sake of a thrill at the wheel or vanity.
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If you want to reduce your greenhouse gas output, don't fly anywhere - 1 long haul flight will do more "damage" than a years worth of burn-ups
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i think the anti car nutters running the country will fall one way or another
i cannot see the current nonsense carrying on
sometime soon the silent majority will bite back
its nonsense to pick on a few 4 x 4's in the UK if you see the thousands of square miles of Chinese factories pumping pink fluffy dice into the air every day
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The silent majority rarely do anything, the petrol strike and one decent anti war march are the only mass actions that have ever taken place in my lifetime in an era of political convergence. If your theory is true howcome the congestion charge has sprung up & increased in size & price unchallenged? That affects millions of people, all of whom stood by and let it happen. All it would take would be for a majority to refuse to pay and they'd have to close the whole system down but will people do that? Never. Thatcher said 'There is no such thing as society' - we live in an era of total apathy. Mind you, she also said "A man aged 30 who takes a bus can consider himself a failure"!!!
Rant over.
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The silent majority rarely do anything, the petrol strike and one decent anti war march are the only mass actions.....
IN the uk this is sadly very true.
However this is Europe. Anything that effects a significant group in France for example will result in mass civil disobedience, riots, things being burnt, stuff being blocked, and the government of the day running scared and making a massive u-turn.
Anything that effects the German inductrial machine will be politley mentioned behind closed doors at the ECB, with a feint suggestion of withholding EEC funding, and the ECB will ensure things happen the way they want.
In summary - anything that effects France or Germany in a detrimental way will not happen.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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I see your point but I don't see why emisions legislation shouldn't be beneficial to industry - consider this:
* New technologies are being worked on now and billions spent, not just to raise the profile of companies as 'green conscious'
* Competetive races to develop new technologies promise significant bounties to the companies that win (look at how much is at stake with the whole Bluray HDDVD thing right now)
* There is a significant increasing trend, partially fueled by ever-more abundant availability of media, post internet, of the public becoming more socially and environmently concious. Demonstrated by the boom in recycling, organic food, farmers markets. Demand for green transport is there and growing
* New laws / regulations etc will make people need to buy new cars, a formidable carrot to the manufacturers
* As I pointed out above, if a 1.4 engine can give 170BHP, why the hell wouldn't people want to take the route of being environmentally friendly and economical?
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being environmentally friendly is more complex than the anti car nutters would have you believe
for instance the tax on emissions, and MPG figures, drive makers to produce cars that reduce these to a minimum, but can often mean they use technology which results in a less reliable car (cam belt is good example here, MMT/CVT instead of proper auto another)
environmental impact of building car etc is not counted, cars like the prius have massive environmental issues around the sites where the batteries are made, and yet they escape congenstion charge for being more environmentally friendly
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By definition the silent majority never do anything. That's because they are silent. Every society on earth is like that.
But a very vocal minority overturned the Poll Tax and effectively deposed a Prime Minister, largely because they were supported by the silent ones. I don't think that's the case with higher taxes on gas guzzlers. Most people think such things are a pointless waste that get in the way and threaten the safety of their children. The anti-war march was more marginal but I think the population was split on that one at the time (not now of course). And let's not forget that Londoners actually elected Ken Livingstone knowing the CC was on his agenda.
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there was no real opposition to Ken
and it was a poke in the eye to NuLabour originally for daring to impose
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there was no real opposition to Ken and it was a poke in the eye to NuLabour originally for daring to impose
Democracy's tough sometimes isn't it?
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I've walked past a number of 4x4s and have never yeet felt threatened.. and neither has my son. I am of course not 'most people'.
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Last month I visited my sister who lives on Exmoor.During the week I was there,I estimate that at least a third of all vehicles on the roads were 4x4.Most of the drivers wouldn't know what you were going on about if you mentioned chelsea tractors.They are essential in that part of the world,as my sister has found out on a few occasions.
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Couldn't agree more. Of course 4x4s have a valid use. But driving around cities ain't one of them. They are a nuisance and hazard in congested streets and on fast roads respectively. To impose massive financial restrictions on parking them in certain boroughs such as K&C & Camden, will put off the people who drive these and incur so much negative externality.
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The EEC have the advantage that 90% of the general public do not respect car companies. A significant proportion think that the car companies are in cahoots with the oil industry and actively working to prevent alternat fuels.
The rest of the people think that car companies are arrogant, care not one jot about people or the environment, and only motivated by greed and control.
The rest are of course right.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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