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A son bought an electric car some 18 months ago.
In the last 2 weeks he has been trailered off the road twice - this was the final straw and he picked up a new petrol car on Saturday.
The car had not been reliable and the wait for spare parts - in total off the road for some 3 months of the 18 months of ownership. He had a loan car from the garage whilst his car was in the garage.
He loved the car, charged at home some concern on longer journeys. Travelled 240 miles to pick up the new car with the EV having a theoretical 280 miles range - he stopped off to top up.
This was not a cheapie Far East import but a premium brand German car - his 5th car he had bought in their car range - all had been reliable in his 10/11 years ownership. The new petrol car is the same brand.
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A son bought an electric car some 18 months ago.
In the last 2 weeks he has been trailered off the road twice - this was the final straw and he picked up a new petrol car on Saturday.
The car had not been reliable and the wait for spare parts - in total off the road for some 3 months of the 18 months of ownership. He had a loan car from the garage whilst his car was in the garage.
He loved the car, charged at home some concern on longer journeys. Travelled 240 miles to pick up the new car with the EV having a theoretical 280 miles range - he stopped off to top up.
This was not a cheapie Far East import but a premium brand German car - his 5th car he had bought in their car range - all had been reliable in his 10/11 years ownership. The new petrol car is the same brand.
Audi? A colleague has a Q4 etron (I think) and it appears to be junk.
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Porsche Taycan replaced a petrol Panamera. He replaced the Taycan with a petrol Cayenne having owned 911s, Panameras which were almost 100% reliable.
It took 2 hours to process the paper, examine the car etc etc - whilst waiting in the lounge he looked out of the window to see an identical Taycan, (even the colour) being off loaded by a breakdown service truck - no idea what was the reason for car being trailered in.
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A son bought an electric car some 18 months ago.
In the last 2 weeks he has been trailered off the road twice - this was the final straw and he picked up a new petrol car on Saturday.
The car had not been reliable and the wait for spare parts - in total off the road for some 3 months of the 18 months of ownership. He had a loan car from the garage whilst his car was in the garage.
He loved the car, charged at home some concern on longer journeys. Travelled 240 miles to pick up the new car with the EV having a theoretical 280 miles range - he stopped off to top up.
This was not a cheapie Far East import but a premium brand German car - his 5th car he had bought in their car range - all had been reliable in his 10/11 years ownership. The new petrol car is the same brand.
Audi? A colleague has a Q4 etron (I think) and it appears to be junk.
Report today on MSN of two owners of BMW I4 costing some £60k have been off the road for 3months as danger of fire. They have not been told the truth about parts required to fix their cars. They have ICE cars on loan which has cost them extra fuel which they are seeking for re-imbursement from BMW
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So the etron is étron. Who would have guessed.
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The Tesla queueing mentality does seem very odd, presumably it's much cheaper for them to charge on the Supercharger network than anything else. Either that, or they think the other chargers might break their car.....
When travelling up to Scotland at Christmas, we stopped at Gretna for lunch. There was the usual peak time queue of 4 or 5 Tesla model 3s blocking up the parent & child parking whilst waiting for a charger.
An EV6 followed us in (we were using a parent/child space in a petrol car), and pulled into one of 2 vacant Gridserve chargers which were right next to the Tesla chargers. About 40 minutes later, we got back into our car at almost exactly the same time as the family in the EV6, who unplugged and drove off as we were loading the kids. The owner of the Tesla we had parked next to was still sitting in his car waiting for a charger to become available.
Do Tesla owners really value their time that badly that they are happy to waste what was probably more than an hour extra of their time, just to save a few pounds on a charge? Ironically, given the number of cars waiting, the Tesla owners probably got stung for the £15 "more than 2 hours" parking fee, which is likely to be more than the difference in costs between the chargers...
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Do Tesla owners really value their time that badly that they are happy to waste what was probably more than an hour extra of their time, just to save a few pounds on a charge? Ironically, given the number of cars waiting, the Tesla owners probably got stung for the £15 "more than 2 hours" parking fee, which is likely to be more than the difference in costs between the chargers...
Somehow I doubt if the average tesla owner cares about spending £15 on parking charges. Rather like anyone else who can afford a car well over £40k (and likely well over £50k) when new. It's more about image / stuats / virtue-signalling than having genuine environmental concerns. If it were truly about the latter, they'd buy a much smaller vehicle and/or use public transport / travel less anyway.
Our housing development's previous property manager loved to show his Tesla off every time we met for meetings. Ironically, despite him saying how green he was, his annual carbon footprint was still miles higher than mine when we worked them out. Wiped the smug smile right off his face.
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Do Tesla owners really value their time that badly that they are happy to waste what was probably more than an hour extra of their time, just to save a few pounds on a charge? Ironically, given the number of cars waiting, the Tesla owners probably got stung for the £15 "more than 2 hours" parking fee, which is likely to be more than the difference in costs between the chargers...
Somehow I doubt if the average tesla owner cares about spending £15 on parking charges. Rather like anyone else who can afford a car well over £40k (and likely well over £50k) when new. It's more about image / stuats / virtue-signalling than having genuine environmental concerns. If it were truly about the latter, they'd buy a much smaller vehicle and/or use public transport / travel less anyway.
That is not the reason most people buy/have Teslas, Model 3s anyway. It is because of the absolutely huge BIK tax savings if run as a business vehicle plus the potential 100% write downs against tax for the purchaser. Really, if you a company user an EV and ideally a Tesla if you are doing motorway miles is a "no brainer" and is cheaper for the driver than an Aygo.
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is not the reason most people buy/have Teslas, Model 3s anyway. It is because of the absolutely huge BIK tax savings if run as a business vehicle plus the potential 100% write downs against tax for the purchaser. Really, if you a company user an EV and ideally a Tesla if you are doing motorway miles is a "no brainer" and is cheaper for the driver than an Aygo.
Very true, but I doubt if many people realise this outside the business world. For the average punter it will be a long time before EVs make financial sense. Headline on P4 of The Times today -'Electric car sales slow as buyer resistance kicks in'. It goes on to say that 'only a tiny number of new EVs are priced below 30k while a petrol equivalent would be about half that'. John & Mrs F continue to have no regrets with their top-of-the-range turbo-ICE Peugeot 2008 bought just over three years ago for a mere '17k on the road'.
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It goes on to say that 'only a tiny number of new EVs are priced below 30k while a petrol equivalent would be about half that'. John & Mrs F continue to have no regrets with their top-of-the-range turbo-ICE Peugeot 2008 bought just over three years ago for a mere '17k on the road'.
Unless the ICE version is heavily discounted, the difference between an EV and an ICE equivalent would be no more than 30%.
The RRP of your top of the range 2008 would have been circa £23k. Presumably the £17k you got it for was in no small part due to the imminent arrival of the all new model. Which incidentally, when it first came out had a list price of more than £35k for the top of the range petrol auto (155 GT). Which is more than the entry level electric version is now..........
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<< The RRP of your top of the range 2008 would have been circa £23k. Presumably the £17k you got it for ... >>
To me, this discussion is almost a fairy tale. The most I have ever spent on a car was £10½K for a 306 convertible, just over 20 years ago. Our present 208SW was a £14K car which cost us £9K at 8 months old. Since then I have bought 'fun' cars of steadily increasing age, none of them costing me more than £2600, most much less. Admittedly I have spent a few peanuts fettling them for fun, but any car is a non-investment in that sense.
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It goes on to say that 'only a tiny number of new EVs are priced below 30k while a petrol equivalent would be about half that'. John & Mrs F continue to have no regrets with their top-of-the-range turbo-ICE Peugeot 2008 bought just over three years ago for a mere '17k on the road'.
The RRP of your top of the range 2008 would have been circa £23k. Presumably the £17k you got it for was in no small part due to the imminent arrival of the all new model.
Absolutely right, bbd. A very large part. But even so, I believe few people actually pay the RRP if they are cash buyers, unless the model is both extremely desirable and in short supply. Indeed, I seem to remember a poster at the time (possibly SLO...} saying I'd overpaid!
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is not the reason most people buy/have Teslas, Model 3s anyway. It is because of the absolutely huge BIK tax savings if run as a business vehicle plus the potential 100% write downs against tax for the purchaser. Really, if you a company user an EV and ideally a Tesla if you are doing motorway miles is a "no brainer" and is cheaper for the driver than an Aygo.
Very true, but I doubt if many people realise this outside the business world. For the average punter it will be a long time before EVs make financial sense. Headline on P4 of The Times today -'Electric car sales slow as buyer resistance kicks in'. It goes on to say that 'only a tiny number of new EVs are priced below 30k while a petrol equivalent would be about half that'. John & Mrs F continue to have no regrets with their top-of-the-range turbo-ICE Peugeot 2008 bought just over three years ago for a mere '17k on the road'.
The Times is in a fantasy world. EVs are expensive, yes, but where the EV version is £30k I can't think of many examples where the petrol is £15k. More like £23-25k.
The only possible one is the FIAT 500 but that is actually a completely different car.
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is not the reason most people buy/have Teslas, Model 3s anyway. It is because of the absolutely huge BIK tax savings if run as a business vehicle plus the potential 100% write downs against tax for the purchaser. Really, if you a company user an EV and ideally a Tesla if you are doing motorway miles is a "no brainer" and is cheaper for the driver than an Aygo.
Very true, but I doubt if many people realise this outside the business world. For the average punter it will be a long time before EVs make financial sense. Headline on P4 of The Times today -'Electric car sales slow as buyer resistance kicks in'. It goes on to say that 'only a tiny number of new EVs are priced below 30k while a petrol equivalent would be about half that'. John & Mrs F continue to have no regrets with their top-of-the-range turbo-ICE Peugeot 2008 bought just over three years ago for a mere '17k on the road'.
The Times is in a fantasy world. EVs are expensive, yes, but where the EV version is £30k I can't think of many examples where the petrol is £15k. More like £23-25k.
The only possible one is the FIAT 500 but that is actually a completely different car.
The problem at the moment is that the supply of cars generlly has been seriously choked off due to the chip shortages and other pandemic response related issues. That means that all new cars are probably costing a LOT more than they should've based on historical norms.
Add to that the 'coincidental' introduction of several extra 'safety' and 'environmental' regs then you got a recipe for many makes ditching uneconomic models (smaller cars mainly) because buyers cannot afford them, and thus they are force into an already overheated second hand market.
I'd say that without any of these pressures, an average Focus sized car would be RRPing for around £18k - £22K rather than high £20ks and would likely attract discounts of around 10-20% depending on the make and model. With superminis and city cars, they'd be RRPing at 20% and 30% less.
I wouldn't be at all suprised that overall sales will drop heavily this year, including (to a lesser extent because of who buys them) EVs, because of the almost certain big recession. I'm sure that the EV evangelists will spin that as positive because of a much higher percentage of total sales being EVs, but they won't be able to spin actual sales figures.
I also suspect that a huge number of people will likely default on their PCP (etc) car payments if big job losses come with that recession, especially if the 'inflationary pressures' remain and the average person's belts need seriously tightening.
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I wouldn't be at all suprised that overall sales will drop heavily this year, including (to a lesser extent because of who buys them) EVs, because of the almost certain big recession. I'm sure that the EV evangelists will spin that as positive because of a much higher percentage of total sales being EVs, but they won't be able to spin actual sales figures.
If EVs have a higher proportion of total sales then that means they are still taking more sales from ICE vehicles - even if total sales are down due to recession. No need to 'spin' anything.
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If there are excess cars I'd guess it is likely to be the EVs which attract the discounts and price drops as it's production of those which are being prioritised.
They're making fewer and fewer ice cars and a number of big ranges are going to be dropped this year but demand remains strong so I think there will be less unsold new ICE cars lying around than EVs.
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I wouldn't be at all suprised that overall sales will drop heavily this year, including (to a lesser extent because of who buys them) EVs, because of the almost certain big recession. I'm sure that the EV evangelists will spin that as positive because of a much higher percentage of total sales being EVs, but they won't be able to spin actual sales figures.
If EVs have a higher proportion of total sales then that means they are still taking more sales from ICE vehicles - even if total sales are down due to recession.
Actually it doesn't - all that means is that wealthier people can afford more expensive cars and/or don't mind paying out to virue-signal their 'green credentials'. The same happened when the Toyota Prius first arrived on the scene with many a celeb buying one.
No need to 'spin' anything.
Seems like you just tried to, given the above explanantion is obvious.
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I wouldn't be at all suprised that overall sales will drop heavily this year, including (to a lesser extent because of who buys them) EVs, because of the almost certain big recession. I'm sure that the EV evangelists will spin that as positive because of a much higher percentage of total sales being EVs, but they won't be able to spin actual sales figures.
If EVs have a higher proportion of total sales then that means they are still taking more sales from ICE vehicles - even if total sales are down due to recession.
Actually it doesn't - all that means is that wealthier people can afford more expensive cars and/or don't mind paying out to virue-signal their 'green credentials'. The same happened when the Toyota Prius first arrived on the scene with many a celeb buying one.
That argument only holds water if you believe that the only people getting behind the wheel of new cars are buying them outright.
The same happened when the Toyota Prius first arrived on the scene with many a celeb buying one.
That wasn't the same at all. Back then (assuming you needed more than two seats), there was only one hybrid option. So all the attention was focussed the Prius.
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That argument only holds water if you believe that the only people getting behind the wheel of new cars are buying them outright.
And doing it with their own money.
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Overall sales are unlikely to drop this year because sales are already below what is typical in even a very deep recession.
Sales numbers are still being dictated by supply rather than demand. That may switch slightly as the year goes on as supply returns but supply is highly unlikely to get over 2m and pre COVID sales were 2.5m
Manufacturers are obviously ramping up prices and margins because that it what you can do when demand outstrips supply and it's happened to both ICE and EVs.
Over the next few years EV will only increase because little or no investment will go into ICE. With a 7 year or more lifecycle to generate a profit on a new model you aren't going to be introducing new design ICE cars in 2027.
Edited by pd on 08/02/2023 at 15:51
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To follow up on this, we are seeing deals being offered again in a way we haven't been for a few years. They are not simply on leases but also on outright purchase. Okay you can argue this is because of we are a small business fleet. But many of our children are being offered attractive deals through work schemes (as mentioned below), of which there are a surprising number.
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That argument only holds water if you believe that the only people getting behind the wheel of new cars are buying them outright.
And doing it with their own money.
Why would people pay out - even via PCP deals - cars overvalued to the tune of 30% when their homes and jobs may be on the line this year? It's unlikely that car prices will drop first - they will, but only once sales (and thus due to other economic factors) drop first.
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That argument only holds water if you believe that the only people getting behind the wheel of new cars are buying them outright.
And doing it with their own money.
Why would people pay out - even via PCP deals - cars overvalued to the tune of 30% when their homes and jobs may be on the line this year? It's unlikely that car prices will drop first - they will, but only once sales (and thus due to other economic factors) drop first.
Because people like new things and because most people these days are not interested in 'doing without'. As for the difference in list price between electric and ICE, that doesn't necessarily translate to the monthly payments and deposit on a personal lease. The term 'deal' is the clue here, they vary.
Using the Peugeot 2008 as an example because small SUV's are so popular and because you can get electric and ICE versions.
Petrol auto is £299 per month with a £1800 deposit. The electric version is £245 per month with a £2200 deposit
Those prices are from a comparison website, and based on a 2 year lease, a max deposit of £2.5k, and 5k miles per year.
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That argument only holds water if you believe that the only people getting behind the wheel of new cars are buying them outright.
And doing it with their own money.
Why would people pay out - even via PCP deals - cars overvalued to the tune of 30% when their homes and jobs may be on the line this year? It's unlikely that car prices will drop first - they will, but only once sales (and thus due to other economic factors) drop first.
Maybe they don't think their homes/jobs are on the line? Many people are quite secure and unemployment levels low and businesses finding it hard to recruit workers.
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I wouldn't be at all suprised that overall sales will drop heavily this year, including (to a lesser extent because of who buys them) EVs, because of the almost certain big recession. I'm sure that the EV evangelists will spin that as positive because of a much higher percentage of total sales being EVs, but they won't be able to spin actual sales figures.
If EVs have a higher proportion of total sales then that means they are still taking more sales from ICE vehicles - even if total sales are down due to recession.
Actually it doesn't - all that means is that wealthier people can afford more expensive cars and/or don't mind paying out to virue-signal their 'green credentials'. The same happened when the Toyota Prius first arrived on the scene with many a celeb buying one.
No need to 'spin' anything.
Seems like you just tried to, given the above explanantion is obvious.
You're like Kylie 'Spinning Around' :-)
Does not matter who is buying the cars - EV are becoming a higher and higher proportion of total cars sold.
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I wouldn't be at all suprised that overall sales will drop heavily this year, including (to a lesser extent because of who buys them) EVs, because of the almost certain big recession. I'm sure that the EV evangelists will spin that as positive because of a much higher percentage of total sales being EVs, but they won't be able to spin actual sales figures.
If EVs have a higher proportion of total sales then that means they are still taking more sales from ICE vehicles - even if total sales are down due to recession.
Actually it doesn't - all that means is that wealthier people can afford more expensive cars and/or don't mind paying out to virue-signal their 'green credentials'. The same happened when the Toyota Prius first arrived on the scene with many a celeb buying one.
No need to 'spin' anything.
Seems like you just tried to, given the above explanantion is obvious.
You're like Kylie 'Spinning Around' :-)
Does not matter who is buying the cars - EV are becoming a higher and higher proportion of total cars sold.
You know full well that's not the same as actual sales (number wise) going up. ICE sales have tailed off because most people are having to endure double digit inflation at a time when a very serious recession and negative house equity is on the horison when interest rates have jumped by a large amount.
You were implying initially that actual sales of EV would be rising, not the same.
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