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The subject of brake fluid changes has been argued to eternity on these forums, we went through all this quite recently:
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=164524
I think we just have to accept there are strong views on both sides.
Personally I think two years is too short but I wouldn't leave it to ten either. But I'm fairly cautious and it's cheap to do.
There are fluid testers to check the moisture content if you have any doubts.
Could the tyre price be simply down to economies of scale? I suspect there are relatively few cars running on 20s.
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Could the tyre price be simply down to economies of scale? I suspect there are relatively few cars running on 20s.
I think there may be more cars running tyres of that size than you may think Xileno. With the buying trend towards bigger cars, and the styling trend of filling the arches!.
There is a happy medium though, and while the price stated by the OP seems a little high (even for the likely tyre size and Michelin rubber), I have to say, even if John's A8 is running tyres of a more modest size of those available for the car, less than £60 a corner sounds alarmingly cheap for a 450bhp near two tonne car!. Put it like this, the 195/65 x 15 tyres I use for my (69bhp) Caddy van cost £210 (supply only) for a set of four (Uniroyal Rain Expert). I did notice though that he didn't mention what brand of tyre that is...........
The price for the OP's tyres are presumably going to be from the main dealer, so the price is likely to be on the higher side for the supply of tyres, fitting them, and disposing of the old ones. Also. tyre prices tend to rise dramatically once you get to past 18" diameter. The info I can find for the OP's X3 suggests a 'standard' tyre size of 225/60 x 18. This in turn would lead to a possible 20" size of 245/45. Looking on Ebay, lowest price for Michelin Cross Climate of that size is £260 each.
As for the weight difference between John's car and the OP's, maybe not as much as you might expect at a little over 200kg (1750 vs 1960kg) according to the figures I found.
Edited by badbusdriver on 02/01/2023 at 11:21
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That's about right BBD and, actually, the cheapest I had found before now for Michelin CC's in that size was actually £289 so not far off my origial estimate of around £1200 for the 4. I won't put cheap tyres on so to some extent I am creating my own problem but I won't skimp on safety stuff.
Geting back to the original dilemma I am gonna pause for thought. Having worked out the pros and cons over the weekend there is no doubt at all that the Civic would be massively cheaper to run, and when you consider the cost to me to change into one of those, brand new, over the value of my car, then it's a bit of a no brainer from a pure economics point of view.
Simply, it would cost me very little to change with a free 5 year service plan, 3 year warranty, no concerns over the car's history and, at least on paper, a brand that is generally pretty reliable. My Honda dealer is pretty good too.
Pitch that against a cost of £2k+ this year on the BMW that's almost 3 years old and the risk of reliability/high cost of any problems being a bit of a Hail Mary, (though equally it may be fine) then I'd be insane not to consider that. My Mrs has been in my ear all weekend telling me that too (she loved the Civic by the way). A lot of it boils down to attitude to risk and we all know there are no guarantees with these metal boxes on wheels.
However, I like the X3. A lot.
And therein lies the conundrum. Heart v Head.
Thanks for all the help.
Edited by Dingle232 on 02/01/2023 at 21:40
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One other thing to consider is make sure you are happy with the ride height, driving position, and ground clearance on the civic. I have the 9th gen and it is a very low slung thing, frequently grounds out and the older I get the harder I find getting in and out of it! I'm sure your x3 is better in all of those areas. Otherwise they are decent cars, although mine being a 12 reg has developed an appetite for oil, so will probably change sooner than I thought. As above, next car will be easier access and hopefully better over rough roads. Best of luck with your decision, let us know what you do
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I have to say, even if John's A8 is running tyres of a more modest size of those available for the car, less than £60 a corner sounds alarmingly cheap for a 450bhp near two tonne car!..... I did notice though that he didn't mention what brand of tyre that is...
The 'mytyres' receipt says £175.67 plus £35.13 vat for four Rotalla Setula S-Race 255/45 ZR19 tyres. I bought these because the recommended lower profile size, 255/40 19, was well over twice the price - for less tyre! The 3.7% difference in diameter is not noticeable (although one must be aware of the resulting speedo error). I took them to a Northampton tyre outfit which fitted them and disposed of the old ones for a tenner a wheel. In theory, I should get a slightly more comfortable ride and less chance of denting a wheel if I hit a deep pothole.
Also. tyre prices tend to rise dramatically once you get to past 18" diameter.
Not necessarily!
The info I can find for the OP's X3 suggests a 'standard' tyre size of 225/60 x 18. This in turn would lead to a possible 20" size of 245/45. Looking on Ebay, lowest price for Michelin Cross Climate of that size is £260 each.
Jeez! That's more than I paid for all four. Are Michelins made of graphene?
As for the weight difference between John's car and the OP's, maybe not as much as you might expect at a little over 200kg (1750 vs 1960kg) according to the figures I found.
Mine's made of aluminium.
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The relative servicing costs between a Honda and a BMW won't be that much different. Hondas are surprisingly expensive to service - possibly because they actually do a bit more than specified for other makes.
The biggest reason for not keeping the car is the tyres though - if they are only lasting about 15000 miles, and cost £1000 for a set, that's nearly 7 pence per mile just for the tyre wear, which is nearly half what you're likely to be paying for the fuel!
I feel hard done by if I don't get 30000 miles out of a set of front tyres and 50000 out of a set of rears. Then, even when I do change them, the tyres are only about £70 each as it's on 16 inch wheels.
This seems to be a feature of the medium sized crossover type SUVs - the Volvo XC60 has a reputation for chewing through tyres very quickly. I suspect it's down to a combination of weight and also suspension set-up with more toe-in to give them the directional stability to make them feel like a small hatchback to drive.
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All cars etc wear there tyres differently, my van despite only have 75hp has worn it fronts in 18 thousand miles and being driven fairly gently and normally lightly loaded.
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The relative servicing costs between a Honda and a BMW won't be that much different. Hondas are surprisingly expensive to service - possibly because they actually do a bit more than specified for other makes.
Yes they are not as cheap as some but, again, the new Honda would not incur any servicing costs for 5 years as it's included with the purchase.
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Also. tyre prices tend to rise dramatically once you get to past 18" diameter.
Not necessarily!
Well if you are happy to go with whatever is cheapest, then no they are not necessarily going to cost much. But for those who'd rather entrust the only point of contact between their car and the road to a known quantity, yes, they do!.
Personally, there is absolutely no way I'd be putting Rotalla tyre on a 450bhp 2 tonne car (or my 69bhp van for that matter).
As for the weight difference between John's car and the OP's, maybe not as much as you might expect at a little over 200kg (1750 vs 1960kg) according to the figures I found.
Mine's made of aluminium.
Yes John, I am aware of that. You said your car was much heavier (than the OP's).
For the OP, it sounds like you have made your mind up to change. But if you did decide to stick, probably worth changing the wheels to 18". Based on the tyre price on Ebay, this could mean a saving of nearly £400 for a set of 4 (Cross Climate). It would also give a better ride, (slightly) better economy, and less likelihood of punctures resulting from potholes or kerbing.
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Good grief John, we all know you like to save a few quid but there are limits, why with such a potentially nice car would you scrimp and save on such a safety item as tyres?
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To be honest, unless you are driving particularly aggressively and outside the cars limits, which most of us wont do even under hard braking, on a long geared permanent 4WD car cheap tyres in good condition are seriously not going to be an issue. I believe most people are not like us and get by on the less well known brand tyres perfectly well.
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The tyres John has fitted seem to have decent reviews:
www.tyretest.com/web/pages/summer-tyres/rotalla/se...1
Surely all these tyres must meet the required safety standard?
Maybe there's a lag between perception and reality. We tend to think of Chinese products as being of suspect quality but wasn't the same said of Korean products maybe twenty years ago and look where they are now.
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Well said, Metropolis and Xileno.
I really haven't noticed any difference between these cheaper tyres and the Bridgestone Potenzas they replaced. Perhaps they will wear out quicker? Anyway, I no longer drive as enthusiastically as I once did - and this car is only doing less than 2000 miles a year.
The gearing is not really relevant - the 3.7% increase in diameter just makes its sporty gearing set-up slightly more long-legged, although nowhere near as highly geared as the ratios on its LWB W12 limousine cousin.
And I hadn't realised the BMW X3 was such a lardy fat jabba! (apologies for ad carinem offence;-)
Edited by John F on 04/01/2023 at 12:32
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To be honest, unless you are driving particularly aggressively and outside the cars limits, which most of us wont do even under hard braking, on a long geared permanent 4WD car cheap tyres in good condition are seriously not going to be an issue. I believe most people are not like us and get by on the less well known brand tyres perfectly well.
The problem is, you can't predict when you might need to make an emergency stop or avoidance manoeuvre. If you do, particularly if the road is wet, you really are putting yourself and others at risk by choosing a poor quality tyre. An emergency stop from 60mph on a wet road can easily be extended by more than 20 meters.
Also, why is the gearing relevant?
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With longer gearing you are less likely to break traction under acceleration.
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There's an interesting test of these Rotalla tyres against a selection of others here. For what it's worth, I tend to just buy Falkens.
www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2022-Tyre-Reviews-17-I...m
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The tyres John has fitted seem to have decent reviews:
www.tyretest.com/web/pages/summer-tyres/rotalla/se...1
Surely all these tyres must meet the required safety standard?
Maybe there's a lag between perception and reality. We tend to think of Chinese products as being of suspect quality but wasn't the same said of Korean products maybe twenty years ago and look where they are now.
These tyre reviews are from owners who have them fitted to their cars. So highly unlikely that any other than a tiny percentage have experience of how the tyre performs when making an emergency stop or avoidance manoeuvre on a wet or slippy road. The reviews are going to be based on normal everyday usage, and not the one time where you really need the tyre to step up and perform.
If these tyres are subjected to a controlled test and found to offer broadly similar abilities to known brands, then I'd be happy to buy them and pocket the savings. Until then, I'd rather not take the risk. For similar reasons, were I in the market for bullet roof glass, I would not base my decision on positive reviews from people who have not seen the glass they are reviewing take a bullet!
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There is a more comprehensive test on the site:
www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2022-Tyre-Reviews-17-I...m
The wet braking is very poor.
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Interestingly for JohnF's tyre choice, in that test they score well in noise and comfort which i dare say are more important to him than the 2 seconds slower it was round the track, have no doubt the drive and traction control systems on John's beasty will still see it outhandle and outbrake most cars on the road fitted with the most expensive brands available, i hardly think he's a danger to life and limb...well unless he runs that mighty engine with just half a pint of oil in the sump to aid engine warm up time :-)))
My issue with budget tyres is how quickly wet grip can deteriorate, i have experimented twice in recent years with budets to see if my previous views were still valid, one brand new set already fitted to newly bought used vehicle another set i deliberately bought to try.
In both cases in the first year of use they were quite acceptable but by the second year (one set only seeing summer use) damp road handling became noticeable worse, dangerously so in one case and i got rid of those almost new tyres rapidly and replaced with known proven, Uniroyal and Yokahama were the chosen replacements which proved to maintain their good wet grip over a number of years to date.
Edited by gordonbennet on 04/01/2023 at 13:47
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