Oh, no!!!
Thanks, Sombrueil, for your reply - I truly hope it doesn't come to that.
I think a fine will take me off the road - can you remember at all how much your fine was?
HF
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Almost certainly £60 and 3 points, assuming there was film in it.
There is a camera on the A3 near me that takes a picture (or at least flashes) every time the lights change, sometimes when cars are going across in the other direction from the one it must be policing. I can't believe it's using film every time, so it is either a dummy or not working properly - they'd have to sift through masses of photos before they found one that showed anything suspect, and given that it automatically takes photos at seemingly random intervals, a lawyer might be able to say that it proves nothing even if they get one of you.
Of course, if you have a clean licence, you'll have a small fine and about the same again on your insurance, so it's probably not worth hiring a lawyer. There's a very good chance, of course, that you'll hear nothing at all - when I first got my car and wasn't used to driving in London, I got flashed all the time and never received anything.
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DavidHM,
Thank you very much for that very informative and clear reply. I'm very grateful.
I will have to hope for the 'no film in camera', I think - I have a clean licence, and people that know me would laugh about the possibility of me driving illegally - I just always try to abide by the rules!
I won't be able to hire a lawyer for this anyway, if it comes to that - do you mean that a clean licence would bring me a smaller fine?
I hope I won't hear anything at all, as you said - but with my luck I probably will! - but thank you so much, your information has prepared me for the worst-case scenario.
Very grateful to you,
HF
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A clean licence shouldn't have any impact on your fine, but 3 points isn't going to screw up your insurance in a big way, or result in a ban under 'totting up', or anything like that.
Of course, in case you hear anything more of it, now would be a good time to make sure that your driving licence, insurance certificate, tax and MoT are all in order. I'm not sure what you'll be asked for, but even if you're not asked, it's not worth running the risk of having them cause you problems in case you did have an accident or something.
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Thank you, again, David,
My licence, insurance, MOT and tax are definitely all in order - only got the car signed over to my name at the end of 2002 so I checked all these things then. And I just checked them again, it's all in order.
I understand that 3 points isn't going to affect me too badly either way, although coming up with £60 for a fine might do. But I'll just have to live with that, if I've broken the law and the camera registered it, I suppose.
I'm also very grateful for the advice re being upfront with the insurance company - which I will do come renewal time, if necessary (asuming something comes of this, I'm still hoping it won't, but am dreading the postman calling every day from now on!)
Again, thank you so much for your advice. I really do appreciate it.
HF
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.......the insurance company - which I will do come renewal time,
Oh NO NO NO.
Do not mess with insurance companies.
Read your policy. I am sure you will find a clause saying any change of circumstances notify us.
3 points is a change so tell them immediately if it happens.
Make sure they log it. Get details of who you spoke to and when you make the call etc.
I understand there is often no increase in premium for first offence.
I am sure one of our legal readers will clarify later.
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Ah, I see - thank you Henry. I wasn't intending messing with the insurance people, and I do indeed have a clause about informing them of any changes. I just hadn't linked the two issues together, so many thanks for your clarification.
Still can't believe I have committed an 'offence'!
HF
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HF - sorry to read this. What were we saying yesterday about plateaus and troughs in your life?
Anyway, how do you know you've committed an offence ? Did you actually see the camera flash or was the light red when you passed it ? Neither is clear from your post. From what I've seen of the camera down on the by-pass, it only flashes when someone goes through a red or when someone pulls away well before they see green.
If the light was still at amber as you went through it you should be ok I would have thought. I heard that these cameras are set off by sensors under the road surface which indicate if a vehicle passes over them when the lights are red. If this is so and you were already past the sensors when the light changed to red you should be ok even though you were still crossing the junction. and could see a red light.
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Hi V,
The light was on amber as I crossed it, but I saw a camera flash in my rearview. Light definitely didn't change to red until I was way over the line. However I was the last car to cross (no-one else behind me at the time) so I presume the flash was for me.
I think troughs and deeper troughs are more appropriate at this point ;)
HF
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If I've missed this in all the previous please forgive me, but are you sure the flash was for the lights and not for speed?
Not suggesting you're a speed freak, but I wonder what the trigger mechanism is for the camera - i.e., can they be set for speed as well as light infringement?
Terrible thought, I know, but you do get the impression these days that one way or the other they'll get you.
I gambled on an amber once a long time ago with not very clever consequences. My basic rule now is that if I see a light on green I assume it's about to change
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100% definitely not for speed. That particular stretch of road has a 30 limit, which I was abiding by, and, like you, had already slowed down in anticipation of the lights changing from green.
The light had just changed to amber as I crossed the line, and very stupidly I decided to proceed instead of stop.
People that know me laugh at my driving because I always try to stick to the rules, but, as you say, it does seem that 'they' will get you one way or the other whatever you do.
HF
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I think you could still be alright you know HF. It's not unusual for these cameras not to have film in so let's hope you're lucky for once. Good luck !
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If you have committed an offence, they must notify you within 14 days of the incident. Let us know after 2 weeks if you get some nasty post.
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I think this case should be OK; allowance must be made for vehicles being unable to stop instantaneously and I would expect these machines are set to catch the comedians who actually cross on red - and quite right too.
Highway code states-
"If the amber light appears you may go on only if you have already crossed the stop line or are so close to it that to stop might cause an accident."
- due to an excessive brake application or a closely following vehicle, occur to me as examples.
Tomo
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"If the amber light appears you may go on only if you have already crossed the stop line or are so close to it that to stop might cause an accident." - due to an excessive brake application or a closely following vehicle, occur to me as examples.
Hmm, I think I fail on both those counts. The light was amber as I crossed the line, and there was no car immediately behind me. I could have stopped had I braked sharpish.
HF
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HF
As I understand your post the lights didn't change to red until after you had crossed the line, therefore you crossed the line on amber. I am pretty certain that the cameras should only trigger if someone crosses the line after the lights have changed to red, and I seem to recall that there is a delay of a fraction of a second even after that, so you should be OK.
It is not unheard of for the cameras to go off on their own, I definitely got flashed by one of our local cameras at 1am as I was turning right from the filter lane, on a green for which I had waited, and going in the opposite direction. It must have flashed for me as I was the only vehicle within a 100yds of the junction, others have said that the camera has flashed when they have been sitting there on a red waiting for a change so I would suggest they are not that reliable.
Hope you hear nothing.
Cockle
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Thanks for that, Cockle.
Yes, you're quite right - the lights didn't go red until I was well past them. As on many sets of lights, there are two sets, one where you stop and another in synch at the other side of the crossroad, presumably just because this second set is more visible to drivers close to the first set. (I'm explaining that terribly) Even the second set was still on amber when I went past.
So, I hope you're right about it being unreliable. Although, me being me, I wouldn't be at all surprised to receive a letter from the nice people who monitor these things pretty soon.
I'm presuming that, when you got flashed in error, you didn't hear anything at all?
HF
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henry k -
Mother has gained 6 points (she thinks maybe 9 but shes not certain) since her insurance renewal. (She 'didn't know' she was speeding and'didn't see' the [yellow and signposted] cameras.) Is she going to be in trouble come renewal time if she waits til then to declare it?
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Dave,
She should declare it now. The trouble is for 9 points they're not going to be happy and they will hit her the first opportunity. That may be renewal, but it also could be at a change of car or something similar.
However, the ramifications of not telling them and then having a serious accident would be truly awful.
Mark.
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Sounds to me like Mother is in need of some advice.
I would suggest you ask your local Council if they do
"Mature Drivers" courses.
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Really long time no speak HF!
Sorry to hear what happened. Exactly the same thing happened to me about 6 weeks ago and I was really upset, the prospect of having points at my age wasn't appealing!
Fortunately I never got a ticket, apparently out of 11 cameras in Sunderland, only 3 have film at any one time :)
From what you have said though, even if a picture was taken, I would think that they would have to ignore it as it would show that you clearly crossed on amber, which is legal. If you do get a ticket, then ask to see *both* photos, there should be one taken as you crossed the line (for it to be an offence the lights should be red as you cross the line) and one of you a second or two later, further up the road to prove that you didn't actually stop.
I think it sounds like you'll be fine. Fingers crossed!
Anyway, apart from this little problem I hope you and your family are well.
Speak soon.
Blue
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Hello Blue!!!
I've been looking for an excuse to say hi to you for ages, but we're never on the same thread these days - till now of course :)
Many thanks for your post, it's reassuring. Hopefully down here in the sarf east cameras are as badly maintained as they are in Sunderland ;)
Also your point about two photos is interesting - I presume they would normally only show me photo number 2, to prove that I didn't stop?
Anyway I'm very glad to hear that you didn't get a ticket yourself. Hopefully I'll be able to say the same myself in a couple of weeks time.
Great to hear from you, we're ok thanks, hope all is going well for you too :)
Take care
HF
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HF!
Don't worry I would put it at 1% chance of trouble on the facts you give. If I remember right you get 0.3 seconds after light turns red and you say is yellow when went through. Also is easy to see flashes when look in rear mirror, is imagination/guilt.
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Good point Gen, my dad said exactly the same when I thought I'd seen a flash, he said that it would be guilt which can kinda trick you into seeing something that didn't happen...
HF - I know what you mean, we haven't posted on the same thread for ages and ages, I thought this seemed like the perfect one :) Even if it could have been a nicer topic of conversation! Try not to worry too hard about the ticket, even if you get one I'm sure you would get away with it.
Yes, I'm very well thanx, apart from been skint the day after pay day! :( Never mind, I'll just start eating tins of beans at lunchtime, save money for nights in Newcastle :)
Blue
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Blue - yes it's the perfect thread seeing as we've both done exactly the same thing. Never mind that it's not the best topic of conversation, it's nice to hear from you anyway :)
I will try and put the possibility of a ticket to the back of my mind (till about 11am each morning when Mr Postie calls), and thanks for your continued reassurance.
Glad all is well, I understand the skint thing! And have some fantastic nights in Newcastle, for some reason that is one city that I've always wanted to visit but never have :)
Take care
HF
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Hi Gen,
Thank you for your post, and for the reassurance.
I'm not the luckiest person in the world, though, and I'd be willing to bet that I'd fall into the 1% you mention rather than the other 99%! (Mind you, if I bet, I'm bound to lose, which means I *can't be in the 99% doesn't it?! Donning coat and heading for bookies now ;)
I appreciate what you say about imagination/guilt - and maybe I *was* feeling a tad guilty about hopping through on amber. I hope that might be the case, but it was a very bright flash so I'm not so sure.
Thanks though
HF
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I went through two reds in one week.
First one in Edinburgh was basicly a y junction with exits and lights everywhere, I managed to mistake the little green man on the pedestrian crossing in my line of sight for my signal to go!.
Second one was back in Newcastle when I followed a big white van waiting in front of me which was obscuring the lights only to find he was in the wrong lane and had responded to a l/h filter in the direction he was wanting to be, I was then was halfway across and had to continue as I was blocking the traffic!.
Both these sets of lights had CCTV cameras and I was expecting bad news in the post for months but nothing came of it thankfully.
HF, you would love a night out in Newcastle, it's "buzzing". The area has everthing now, including a half decent football. team.
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Mal,
Glad to hear you had no bad news in the post! I\'m assuming that if I hear nothing within the fortnight I am ok? Although, Volvoman told me that I should be able to check somewhere online, or by phone, just in case the post happens to be delivered to the wrong address (as happens frequently round here). He has a good point, but I think I\'m of the \'rather not know till I have to\' variety and would not be able to bring myself to make that call!
As an Arsenal supporter, I extend my sympathies to you for our mutual exit;) Newcastle sounds great!!
HF
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HF - If you ever visit give me a shout, it is a pretty nice City to visit. I live in Sunderland though, we're getting a good deal of new stuff, but the City Centre was bombed to pieces suring the war and re-built during the *spit* sixties, so we have loads of concrete block monstrosities. The Council are giving it a makeover though, but it's stil not as attractive as Newcastle which still has most of it's nice old buildings.
I actually haven't had a proper night out in Newcastle yet, I've always stuck to Sunderland 'cos it's much cheaper :) but it's not as good, I'm off out now for a couple of hours at Beach, but looking forward to Newcastle a lot more :)
Blue
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ooops, motoring link, erm.... Newcastle has cameras that can catch you obstructing yellow box junctions!
Blue
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>>Newcastle has cameras that can catch you obstructing yellow box junctions
LOL, it's worth a visit just for that then ;)
Apologies to M and DD that this is going off-topic, but I always had a soft spot for the Sunderland footie team, after winning some money (probably about 2p but it was exciting at the time) on one of their results at the age of 5. And I'm jealous of the accents that a lot of people from those parts have.
If I'm ever in the area, then we should start in Sunderland and take in the good parts and the concrete monstrosities, and then move on to Newcastle for a pint with Mal! Of course no-one would be able to drive after that though, would we? (phew, got it back to motoring ;)
Have a great time at Beach, whatever that may be.... :)
Take care
HF
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Apologies to M and DD that this is going off-topic,
Lurk.
Getting ready with the scissors 8< 8<
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Sorry DD, promise to keep it more on topic! But I can't resist filling HF in on the area, Beach is one of the best nightclubs in Sunderland BTW.
On-topic - I've never actualy seen one of these "Yellow Box" cameras myself, 'cos I make a point never to drive around Newcastle, it scares me! If you do go, I would recommend parking up outside somewhere, and getting the Metro into the centre, I really dislike using public transport when I have a car, but even I won't drive through the centre of Newcastle!
Blue
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Apologies to M and DD that this is going off-topic,
E-mail accounts broken, are they ? Forgotten each other\'s e-mail addresses ? Dave, pass me those scissors.........
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>> Apologies to M and DD that this is going off-topic, E-mail accounts broken, are they ? Forgotten each other\'s e-mail addresses ? Dave, pass me those scissors.........
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HF why don\'t you pay a visit to the lights in question, on foot and time the amber and see how trigger happy they are. Might just put your mind at rest, or give you some ammo.
Thread firmly back on topic and put those flaming scissors back in the drawer!!!!!!!!!!!
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FiF,
Thank you for your post and also for putting a smile back on my face :)
I was going to stay right off this thread until penalty notice either arrives or the 14 days expires.
However, I cannot ignore your very helpful post. So thanks, it's a good idea about taking a look at the lights in question - I will do so, and hope that I see them being trigger-happy ;)
HF
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Well, the 14 days came to a close tonight. Nothing came through the post. Since it is beyond the realms of credibility that I have been lucky, I can only think that one or other of the following has taken place:
1) I imagined the flashing (pretty sure I didn't though)
2) NIP lost in post
3)NIP got delivered to nasty neighbours who wouldn't dream of passing it on to me
4)NIP will arrive tomorrow morning, because theoretically I guess since the 'incident happened in the evening the 14 days might continue to the following morning?
But, whether I'm in luck or not, my thanks to all of you who offered knowledge and advice to me on this thread.
HF
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The 14 days is generally taken to be plus a day for them to organise it, and another two days for it to be posted.
Even so, you've probably got away with it as it's not about being lucky, but being unlucky if you are caught, especially as, in your case, it sounds as if the camera was oversensitive anyway.
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Thanks David, I'll wait another 3 days before convincing myself that there's nothing to worry about. This info is much appreciated.
HF
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Don't know how the system works but could it also be possible that HF was flashed, pictures were taken, a human being reviewed them and decided that she was on the margins and given the benefit of any doubt.
Given some of the stunts I see on my limited travels, I think these cameras would serve as more of a deterrent if they were set a little 'oversensitive' as you put it and flashed a bit more often even if the number of actual prosecutions remained the same. When you see a camera flash it certainly makes you concentrate a bit more and that's no bad thing is it.
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Missed this thread earlier...
Never been out in Newcastle? A crying shame when you live in Whereside. And HF...Sunderland AFC? Well, given that they're languishing at the bottom of the premiership and heading down it's punishment enough.
Motoring link....Well, I used to spend a lot of time working in Sunderland and it was becoming an absolute nightmare to get into the town centre with the traffic restrictions and speaking to friends, it's only got worse since I left.
Course that would only matter if you wanted to go to Sunderland in the first place ;-)
Lee.
Lee
"What are you compensating for?" - MINI advertising campaign in USA
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>>And HF...Sunderland AFC? Well, given thatthey're languishing at the bottom of the premiership and heading down it's punishment enough.
I know, I know - but childhood pleasures are hard to shake. And I just had a very enjoyable time watching (on tv) two teams compete at the Stadium of Light!
Course that would only matter if you wanted to go to Sunderland in the first place ;-)
A northeast derby being played within these hallowed fields?
But back to motoring - (mods it's rude if I don't reply to people :) - a couple more days should see me in the clear, I hope, from David's post. My fingers remain crossed until that point ;)
HF
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Glad to hear you didn't decide to blow up the camera to destroy the evidence. :) Seems to be a not infrequent occurrence.
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Glad to hear you didn't decide to blow up the camera to destroy the evidence. :) Seems to be a not infrequent occurrence.
Yeah unfortunately I had no explosive equipment on me at the time, Leif.
HF
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>>Stadium of light
Yes, excellent game at the Stadium of Plight. SHouldn't think all those fans in Sunderland will make traffic flow any easier...
Hope you find your postbox devoid of official post for a few days more... :-)
Lee
"What are you compensating for?" - MINI advertising campaign in USA
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Just to close this thread off - I've done my 14 days plus 3, and have still received nothing in the post.
So, I will assume unless I hear otherwise that I was either lucky/over-imaginative/subject to the investigation of a real person who realised I hadn't broken any law!
Thanks to you all for your input!
HF
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HF those 14 days + 3 must have been terrible for you but re my own experience, mine lasted longer than 17 days as I was ignorant of the time-scale and did not seek the advice of the forum.
Anyway pleased to see you can now relax and and get back to a stress-free life.
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Thanks Mal!!
>>Anyway pleased to see you can now relax and and getback to a stress-free life.
Yes I will look forward to that!! - thanks again for your post.
HF
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IMPORTANT
Hi all,
This is my first message so please go easy on me should any of you reply. Is it true that if you passed the first set of lights (the STOP LINE) before they went to red, no offence has been committed? THis has happened to me but the camera flashed anyway. Please help!
Welcome on board, Adski.
I had a quick search using the \"Forum Search\" (see top right) and found this thread on Traffic Light Cameras which seemed more relevant to your circumstances than the other one you posted in. Will see if there are any other gems of relevance out there for you.
In the meantime, sit back and enjoy the wealth of, er, something or other that makes up the contributors to the Back Room.
No Dosh aka. Alan_Moderator@honestjohn.co.uk
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As it is only you that know your position in relation to the Stop Line then here is the law in relation to lines at lights.
From very careful study of the information you may, or may not have a defence if a brown envelope drops through your door within 14 days of the incident.
www.tinyurl.com/b9kq
Scroll down to Reg 33 to 44 and in particular Reg 43
Further down in the blue Section your sign should be at
Image 111 of 337 - Diagram 1001.
Within the sign information block are references to other Regs (above the blue section) and Directions (below the blue section)
DVD
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First of all, thanks Alan and DVD. Just in case anyone wants any more information, I will explain the events of that fateful evening.
I know your mind can play funny tricks on you but I know I passed the first STOP line on GREEN. However, despite 'engineer's recommendations' about the amber phase, this particular stretch of road is not only very long, but has a 70mph speed limit so quite often, the length on the junction covered by the camera is long enough to allow the signals to change twice (e.g. amber to red) (Am I explaining this very well?!) ANyway, I am 98% sure that the second STOP line, the repeater lights, whatever you want to call it was crossed whilst the lights were on amber. However, like I said, your mind can play funny tricks on you so let's assume worst case scenario, they went to red for a split second before I had completely passed the junction. It doesn't end there! In my rear view mirror, I saw one flash. Now considering this, I am guessing that I must have missed the first flash as I only looked behind me a few seconds later. Now I am hoping that should any photographs have been taken of me, they will show the details of how long the lights were on red before they were triggered. Hopefully, upon inpspection by a human being, they will show in the worst case, the lights on red at the furthest part of the junction (depending where the sensors were). I've made a real good job of botching this up haven't I? I am just hoping that should anything happen, my defence of crossing the STOP line on green is strong enough! Hope this helps....please let it help!
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The way you described it I would think you are alright with this one.
A tip for the future (borrowed from Paul Ripley and many others) that may help on these and other lights.
If you approach any traffic lights on Green, they can only change one way. Always assume that they are about to, especially if you haven't seen them on red in your approach. Don't be tempted to accelerate slightly to nip through if they do start to change, but instead drop back a little, being ready to brake and stop should they change.
I only took this on board after a near miss when I approached some lights on a 60 NSL section and on seeing them change to amber booted the accelerator. Never again! This was some years ago, but I still remember the look on the other drivers face as he went for a record 0-60 on the Red/Amber as I tore through just on the Red.
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I completely agree normally I would slow down but when it got to the point where I would have had to slam on to stop, I sped up and thought "Here goes". The only thing that is concerning me is that I have never seen the camera flash ever before despite me using the road every day! PLUS - some guy went through on RED hours earlier...nothing! Oh well...
Thanks again, I will keep you informed...
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Adski - I don't know if I'm following you correctly, but you seem to be saying that you went through the lights at green, but by the time you had passed the repeater lights on the other side of the junction they had changed to amber. If this is the case, you have done nothing wrong and you can forget about the flash - if you go through the lights at green you do not need to worry about the repeaters changing while you are mid-junction - you would not be expected to stop in the middle of the junction in this situation.
I began to worry when you mentioned a second STOP line. On a normal junction there wouldn't be a second stop line, but if it was a junction with a pedestrian crossing immediately after it there would. There are a number of these around where I live, and I see a lot of drivers get confused by thinking the second set of lights are just repeaters for the first. These are actually treated as two separate sets of lights - are you sure this is not what is at the location you describe?
If it is not one of these junctions, you have nothing to worry about.
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I remember my IAM instructor telling me once that the light controls the stop line, and if you have passed the stop line when the light has gone red, you are still entitled to continue, as you have passed the controlled point.
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Hi Adski
If you crossed the line on the amber, you should be OK - after all, according to Highway Code IIRC, amber means stop only if you can do so safely, i.e. without having to use both feet on the brake pedal and nearly standing the car on its nose. It\'s only red that means \"stop no matter what\". As I understand it the sensors are embedded in the tarmac either side of the stop line.
In this case there could have been something wrong with the sensor (i.e. it got jammed on somehow) so that it made the camera trigger even though there was no-one crossing the line.
FWIW I am convinced that at lights where these things are fitted the amber phase is shortened by several tenths of a second so that people have less time to stop.
One thing I didn\'t realise with these things until I saw someone fall foul of it is that they trigger if you are a little eager and start moving when the light is on red-amber.
If anyone else has already pointed this out, my apologies for being an echo....
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Ignore me - didn\'t realise this was the old part of the thread....
(creeps away quietly)
By the magic of moderation, your post miraculously moves to the end of the post and now refers to Adski, not HF.
You may creep back......
ND
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There is a problem with some traffic lights in that the amber period is set too short for the speed limit.
So basically the Highway Code expects you to take x feet to stop from a particular speed, but the traffic lights expect you to do it in x-20 at night on a wet road.
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LOL :-)
Thanks, ND - I'll actually read the dates next time....
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Hi Adski,
Your experience does sound remarkably similar to mine above, and if I were you I would take some comfort from the posts which state that it is fairly unlikely there was any film in the camera anyway! I spent a couple of weeks worrying, when in the end there was no need, so try not to let it bother you too much in the interim until your two weeks is up (easier said that done, I know).
I do, and always did apart from this one incident, try to keep to the policy described by No Dosh, as in easing up from the accelerator when approaching a light on green. I know this infuriates drivers behind me sometimes, because they are obviously hoping to sail through too, but at least it gives me some stopping time if need be, without being rear-ended.
Good luck, and let us know how you get on.
Regards,
HF
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If you got flashed by a strong WHITE light as you went over the junction then I think you will shortly be recieving an NIP asking for £60- and 3 points on your licence. If the red light cameras are not in use they dont flash because they will be switched off i.e. no power to them There are different makes of red light cameras but ours are German and in daylight they DO NOT flash even when triggered they have a light meter and only flash at night. The flashes on other Gatso made cameras work all the time day or night but again, only flash when triggered.
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First of all, I would like to say thank you to everyone who has replied. Secondly, in answer to SR's point, I should have explained myself more clearly. By second stop line, I was being an idiot! I meant the line on which the repeater lights are on (if that makes sense.) Like I said earlier, I looked in the rear view mirror and saw only one flash so either I missed the first one, or the camera was messed up (which I doubt.) My only hope is that someone behind triggered the sensor but stopped (as for the rest of the journey on that road, there was no one behind me). **(It should be noted here that I only saw the flash after I had passed the junction not whilst I was on it AND, I don't think the camera has malfunctioned as I have NEVER seen one of them flash!) Or of course, the camera has taken my picture but upon closer inspection, it should be obvious what my situation was. On a final more confusing note in response to John's comment, I don't know the make of the camera but I do know it looks different to a lot of the other ones I see. Instead of a narrow box with two squares in for presumably the lenses and the flash, this one is more of a sqaurish box with two circular lenses directly under each other. Don't know if this helps.... Again many thanks for all of your replies.
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Sounds like you have been caught by a German MK1 "TRAFFIMASTER", They have two circular appertures with hoods over the appertures. Although they dont normally flash in daylight unless its very dull or foggy or in heavy rain. The ones with 2 square appertures are Gatso red light cameras. All red light cammeras only flash once since there is no need for a second flash as the only evidence sought is that you were positioned after the stop line whilst the lights were on red. Unless the particluar film in that camera is ditched for some reason I would venture the opinion that you will be getting an NIP in the post in the next 2 weeks. It must be sent and recieved by you within 14 days of the offence else its not enforcable.
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Just when I was having a good weekend as well...
If they do indeed flash once, then there is no way I have been done because I was well past the junction when I saw it flash in my rear view mirror. However... the junction in question has a camera on the other side as well (it is a dual carriageway) and a number of weeks ago, I did see someone get flashed going the other way. I know I can't preach because of my predicament but he definitley went through on red. Anyway, to cut a long story short, the camera flashed twice. Can you flash any ...sorry, shine any light on the situation? P.S. The camera looks exactly like you described it. Thanks again
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By the way, don't know if I've said this but it was dark at the time.
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The model of camera you passed may be set to flash twice and you may have missed the first flash, they can be adjusted , but I still think theyve got you, as ive said they do only flash in poor light or in darkness. You said you were well passed the line, well thats exactly when they flash. They are pretty lenient in the way they are set up as most of the shots ive seen from our cam show the vehicle well \"into\" the junction. Dont think Im a total pink fluffy dice because I work with these things I have enough stick from my boss for owning a motorcycle which no-one in my office likes except the Police many of whom also own (much faster) bikes.
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I don\'t think you\'re a you know what...I value your professional opinion but when I said well past it, I meant well past the entire junction not the stop line. I only saw the flash in the rear view mirror and I was far enough away to not even see the camera (and it\'s bright yellow). If it did indeed only flash once, I probably would not be in the picture but even if I was, I would be a good distance away from the junction to be someone who had either gone through completely on green or a slow driver! (Does that make sense? Probably not). What I\'m saying is that, I passed the STOP line when the lights were in fact on green. SO let\'s say for argument\'s sake that the camera has got me...have I actually committed an offence. By the way, my dad has a Gixer....and it\'s quick!
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Well if you had actually passed the junction and well up the road, I would say that there must be something wrong because you have to be in a certain position junction for the prosecutuion to stand I mean that if you were no longer on the junction and driving up a straight piece of road and only noticed the flash in the distance in your rear view mirror and it was dark then it could only have been another car that triggered it not yours maybe you saw the flash from an opposing camera flashing taking a shot of a car going in the opposite direction, again the camera film reading unit should spot this and "NFA" the film , certainly if one of our operators saw a shot of a car in the distance and not in the spot where they would normally expect it then they should bin the film.
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This pleases me but I am assuming the worst case scenario here and presuming that I saw the SECOND flash. I know they are bright from when I saw the other guy weeks ago get flashed and I certainly didn't see (or sense!) the first one whilst I was in the junction. However, even if the first flash was there whilst I was in the junction, wouldn't a person be able to tell (from the information provided in the photograph) that there was no way I could have gone through on red?
Many thanks again...
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In a word, yes they should be able to tell what you ask. If by some small chance they send you an NIP then definately ask them for the photographic evidence, if they wont post it to you then make an appointment to see someone from the film viewing unit at the s************ partnership and ask them to talk you through the photo and ask them to compare it with other shots from the same roll of film.
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Can you do this? I would have thought they would be less than forthcoming to provide evidence that 'in theory' could get you off the hook.
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We do it on request, if there is genuine doubt thrown up by the photo and this is backed up by your request to see a print of the photo then they should comply. It all depends on the attitude of the office manager , but if you get a NIP ring up and ask for an appointment to see someone with the photo. Its your right to see any evidence. photos rarely lie and it will conclude the matter one way or the other.
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Sorry to keep taking up your time by continuing this apparently never ending conversation, but I have heard somewhere, albeit from a less than reliable source, that people like yourselves, (no offence) were generally reluctant to provide this information and would only do so if you were in fact going to court. I would have thought that your decision to go to court or not would be based on the evidence.... Thanks again although that line is getting old...
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I have no axe to grind either way. I dont know you and Im not the one who makes the decision to proceed with an NIP which by the way is a conditional offer to accept the fine and 3 points which of course avoids court. Like I said ask to see any evidence , make an appointment to see the evidence which will conclude the matter that way you will avoid court both way, ....by either accepting the NIP or by them changing their mind and NFA...ing the film.
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Many thanks...I guess I will just have to wait and see. But ONE LAST POINT John...honest... Is it 14 days for them to post the NIP or 14 days for you to get it...I only ask because everyone I speak to says different things...plus the fact, can they rely on an external service such as the Royal Mail to get the NIP to the offender on time?
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This has been a useful thread. I was previously under the impression that traffic light cameras took two images - one to show you across the line on red, the second to show you actually continued through the junction and hadn't just overshot the line while trying to stop.
Adksi - if you're certain the lights were on green when you went through you should be OK. Sounds like a false alarm. John might be able to confirm this, but if the lights were green when you went through then I would have thought any photo would show them (at worst) on amber.
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They have 14 days from the date of the offence for you to reieve the NIP ie you must have got it by the 14th day or else its not valid, NIPs are sent out by royal mail 1st class post.
Different cameras operate in different ways, forward facing truvelos only take one shot and operate off piezo electric cbles laid in the road surface, when the housing is turned aound the operate the same as a gatso taking 2 shots, - to show the progress made over the secondary check markings painted on the roads surface, Two shots doesnt work in forward facing mode because the vehicle would obscure the secondary check markings, instead the shot is taken with the front wheels exactly on the middle of 3 narrow lines across the road. Gatsos work off radar and can only operate in rear facing mode, always taking 2 shots.
The camera you saw was a Traffipax traffimaster (German).
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Several differnt types of camera are listed here:-
www.beencaughtspeeding.co.uk/guide.htm
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Interesting subject, those Peeks, despite it being a Dutch Company, as are Gatos BV are actually designed and built in Germany, the operating instruction are a straight translation from either Dutch or German and really crack me up when I follow them, things like...."just try pushing the biro into the hole.you know it works guys".....LOL Truvelos are designed and built in South Africa and when we got our manuals for them when we followed the load/un;load procedure we found they were (very) wrong. Clearly SA to English is something of an acquired art.
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whats the score with the recent post strike? still 14 days?
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The law says 14 days, I dont live in an area affected by the postal strike, but the laws the law. If you get a NIP after 14 days its not enforceable
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Yup, 14 days is 14 days strike or no strike.
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how would you advise fighting this?
Im concverned cos I went through a light at what i am convionced is amber just over a week ago and im sure i saw a flash from the box
when i know i wasnt speeding and in my eyes i did not break the law on the light
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I thought that it had to be issued within 14 days, not delivered. If that was the case we could all claim that the NIP was one of the weekly 500,000 missing items of mail.
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I also thought it had to be POSTED not delivered in 14 days but not only does John know about these things (given the nature of his job), if you think about it, imagine if they posted it on the 14th day. It could take 7 days to get there it could take 1. People could then argue that it took too long and so on. They could even post it on the 15th day but it would only get postmarked from the date it went through the sorting office. If that was the 15th, the wonderful guys who control the cameras could in fact say they posted it on the 14th so it's not their fault. DO you see where I'm going with this? No...me neither but I'm leaving it in anyway.
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Nicholson v Tapp (1972)
NIP not served if it arrives outside the 14 day period because it was posted so late e.g. the 14th day so that it could not be expected to arrive in 14 days.
Groome v Driscoll (1969)
Offence occurred 4th Sept. NIP posted recorded delivery the following day but not delivered until 21st Sept - held to be good service.
DVD
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Cheers DVD. So if I hear nothing by Thursday, I should be alright?
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DVD, I think I may have misread your posting. When you say held to be good service and it arrived 20 days late, was the NIP still valid? It's just that given the current state of the postal service, people could be waiting months to get one. Surely this isn't right?
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Yeah right. Atleast were learning from each other.
Thanks for the post!
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