Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars

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Mon 24 Jul 2023 06:38
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - madf

Finished my research on buying and running an EV as an OAP.

Conclusions: totally unaffordable due to Insurance costs.

Summary based on Honda Jazz 1.3 2012, 6,000 miles pa

Cheapest fully comprehensive insurance 11 years NCD ,6,000 miles pa

Jazz: £240, Renault Zoe £399, BMW i3 £450, Tesla Model 3 £799 (All latest quotes)

Petrol/electricity at 42mpg, £1.35/litre £0.40 KWH, 4Miles/Kwh (no local free charging)

Petrol £868, Electricity £600 Saving £268

Edited by madf on 24/07/2023 at 06:38

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Mon 24 Jul 2023 07:29
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - Adampr

If you're going to try and 'prove' that EVs aren't worth buying, I suggest you include rhe purchase cost. Unless cars are free in your land of cheap petrol!

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Mon 24 Jul 2023 08:06
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - pd

Surely something like a BMW 335d would be a fairer comparison insurance wise to a Model 3 than a Jazz?

I also don't get where you are paying £0.40 a kWh. That's cheap for public charging but not a realistic price for home charging where the cap even if you charged during the day is £0.30.

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Mon 24 Jul 2023 08:12
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - mcb100
Hardly a valid insurance comparison.

An 11 year old, 100 horsepower Jazz, worth c£6500 vs a new(?), 279 horsepower car with a list price of £42,000.

Have you done the same sums for an overnight charging tariff for 7.5p per kWh?
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Mon 24 Jul 2023 09:29
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - sammy1

Well if nothing else it illustrates just how expensive these EVs can be to insure. Hardly surprising given the fire risk not just to the car but anything else that may be impacted.. The figure quoted is almost 4 times my 2019 1.5 MINI Cooper Sport. I wonder how many people buy the car and then go looking for the insurance? Are peoples electricity tariffs higher than they might be, someone has to be paying for charging from home. Please don't come up with the reason that there is "too much" spare capacity overnight!

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Mon 24 Jul 2023 11:54
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - Andrew-T

Well if nothing else it illustrates just how expensive these EVs can be to insure. Hardly surprising given the fire risk not just to the car but anything else that may be impacted.

I guess insurers are erring on the safe side, since stats for insurance risk for EVs will be in their infancy, and can only come down as makers improve things on that front.

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Mon 24 Jul 2023 10:18
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - madf
Hardly a valid insurance comparison. An 11 year old, 100 horsepower Jazz, worth c£6500 vs a new(?), 279 horsepower car with a list price of £42,000. Have you done the same sums for an overnight charging tariff for 7.5p per kWh?

Last year I was quoted £300 for a BMWI3 now £450.

Are there any new tariffs at 7.5p/KWH. Please tell

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Mon 24 Jul 2023 10:19
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - madf
Hardly a valid insurance comparison. An 11 year old, 100 horsepower Jazz, worth c£6500 vs a new(?), 279 horsepower car with a list price of £42,000. Have you done the same sums for an overnight charging tariff for 7.5p per kWh?

Last year I was quoted £300 for a BMWI3 now £450.

Are there any new tariffs at 7.5p/KWH. Please tell

My quote was for a 2020 Tesla 3 at £25k.

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Mon 24 Jul 2023 10:27
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - pd

All insurance has gone up.

Teslas are not cheap to insure but for a valid comparison you need to compare them with other cars which do 0-60 in 5.8 seconds.

You still haven't said where you are getting your £0.40 per KWh from.

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Tue 25 Jul 2023 13:16
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - madf

Sorry for delay: life events

Can;t change supplier just now as in 3 years gas/elect deal ending Sept 2024. Elect price 19.5/kwh so uneconomic to switch. (£1000s extra costs)

I worked out electricity cost at 19.5p home charging and roughly 1/3rd of my mileage at 60p.. I do several 500 miles round trips a year.

(Did not mention before I can charge any EV at home, need a replacement fuse box (60amp fuse vs 100Amp needed) and installation costs likely to be high for any charging due to property age and distance garage to fuse box (approx 50M and two stone walls. So economic case for switch must be good. )

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Tue 25 Jul 2023 14:03
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - Terry W

There may be very understandable reasons why EV is not suitable for all right now - nature of car use, location of property etc etc.

But use (possibly somewhat anomalous) individual circumstances as a generalisation is rather more questionable.

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Mon 24 Jul 2023 10:23
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - mcb100
‘Are there any new tariffs at 7.5p/KWH. Please tell’

There you go - octopusev.com/charging/tariff
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Mon 24 Jul 2023 12:00
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - sammy1

What I wold point out again is the Free VED on EVs. Owners who can afford one can certainly pay the same as the rest with their heavy road damaging cars.

Ah Octopus with its 100% green energy, where do they get it from when the wind stops blowing and the sun does not shine? I am a customer and they are no cheaper than the rest. Perhaps if they charged the EV drivers a bit more then I and the rest of its customers might pay less. As more and more EVs come on the roads this cheap tariff must be unsustainable and indeed will there be enough grid capacity for all the countries needs.

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Mon 24 Jul 2023 21:42
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - alan1302

Ah Octopus with its 100% green energy, where do they get it from when the wind stops blowing and the sun does not shine? I am a customer and they are no cheaper than the rest. Perhaps if they charged the EV drivers a bit more then I and the rest of its customers might pay less. As more and more EVs come on the roads this cheap tariff must be unsustainable and indeed will there be enough grid capacity for all the countries needs.

Nuclear power and hydro power would be the obvious place to get electricity from that's not from fossil fuels.

Why would you expect them to be cheaper than other providers?

I expect cheaper EV tariffs will slowly dry up as more people get them, or you could get an EV and benefit from them.

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Mon 24 Jul 2023 11:58
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - Big John

Petrol/electricity at 42mpg, £1.35/litre

I wish - still £1.44 around here in East Yorkshire

Electric cars are coming our way whether we like it or not - and I was impressed when I was doing some driving as part of a long road trip with a Tesla, especially the charging infrastructure and ease of use. It's less good for other makes though.

However for me if I was to buy one a big problem is the purchase price and my wife hates touch screens especially re basic functions.

I also prefer holidays where we drive across Europe(just back from Switzerland) - range anxiety is still a thing!

Edited by Big John on 24/07/2023 at 12:18

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Mon 24 Jul 2023 12:25
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - mcb100
‘ It's less good for other makes though. ‘

Tesla Superchargers are only 12.2% of the UK rapid and ultra rapid charger stock, so whilst Tesla drivers (or, more precisely, their satnavs) are drawn like moths to a flame to Tesla devices, it leaves the other 87.8% for the rest of us.
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Mon 24 Jul 2023 18:47
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - Big John
‘ It's less good for other makes though. ‘ Tesla Superchargers are only 12.2% of the UK rapid and ultra rapid charger stock, so whilst Tesla drivers (or, more precisely, their satnavs) are drawn like moths to a flame to Tesla devices, it leaves the other 87.8% for the rest of us.

Good point - but I was more thinking about the joined up Tesla infrastructure, car advising of available chargers and when you park up just pick up the lead, flap pop open, plug in and then walk away. 40ish% to 90ish% after a comfort break / coffee. It's the plethora of apps and payment types that seems a pain with other chargers.

It's kind of irrelevant for me as now I'm retired I doubt a Tesla will ever be on my shortlist because of my Yorkshire budget. Actually I've no idea what would be on my shortlist! I'm finding just about everything is a pain - literally. I'm having trouble with many recent over bolstered car seats, B pillars and leg room - ignoring Mrs BJ's hate of touch screens and my hate of bad lane assist. I might be following ORB's example .....

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Wed 26 Jul 2023 19:46
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - JonestHon

Petrol/electricity at 42mpg, £1.35/litre

I wish - still £1.44 around here in East Yorkshire

Electric cars are coming our way whether we like it or not - and I was impressed when I was doing some driving as part of a long road trip with a Tesla, especially the charging infrastructure and ease of use. It's less good for other makes though.

However for me if I was to buy one a big problem is the purchase price and my wife hates touch screens especially re basic functions.

I also prefer holidays where we drive across Europe(just back from Switzerland) - range anxiety is still a thing!

In Cornish land at the moment seen anything from 1.67 to 1.51 to 1.46 (petrol). Back home (around Gloucester) 1.36 to 1.44

ICE evolved over a century, I doubt if any of the steps to move BEV will dent the process of climate change.

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Mon 24 Jul 2023 16:56
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - John F

'To run' ? Don't you mean 'to buy'? For those of us who like big fast cars but can't afford new ones, I compared some 2014-2015 Tesla S with some Audi A8 on a popular website. Looking at those with around 10,000 miles per annum the Teslas were around £25,000 but the A8s were around £15,000. I don't know what the difference in new price was then but it seems that big old Teslas hold their value quite well.

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Mon 24 Jul 2023 17:41
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - SLO76
Our Leaf was no more expensive to insure than the Honda HRV diesel it replaced, charging costs us nothing via local Charge Scotland chargers or 0.29p KWH at home. The car, bought at 3yrs old was almost £1,000 less to buy than the 4yr old Honda cost us and it costs nothing to tax and much less to service and maintain. It is far cheaper to run than the previous car, it’s only downsides are the range (120/130 miles in reality) if you need more and the time to charge it. Personally, I think a used Leaf at £12-£15k is probably the cheapest way to run a newish family hatchback.

You do need to compare like for like. If I were to pick an equivalent 3yr old Mazda 3 or Ford Focus, it would’ve cost similar money to buy yet it would cost us around £2k per year on fuel, £150 a year to tax plus an extra £100 a year to service, not to mention the lack of a timing belt to change or an exhaust and catalyst to replace. The Leaf wins hands down, if it suits your lifestyle.

Edited by SLO76 on 24/07/2023 at 17:42

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Mon 24 Jul 2023 18:50
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - Terry W

Annual fuel cost assuming a fairly modest 10k pa for an ICE at (say) 40mpg is 250 gallons at £7 per gallon = £1750pa.

Electricity varies - zero (PVs on roof) night rates 7.5p, full cost 30p kwh. Assuming 4 miles per kw = an annual cost of 0, £187 or £750 depending on charging method.

Leaving aside environmental issues (is electricity generated from fossil fuel or green sources), going EV can deliver material savings. The payback period depends on individual circumstances - recharging arrangements and range issues.

The thread started by comparing insurance costs for two very different cars and drawing conclusions from that - utterly fatuous. To be remotely convincing, the anti-EV brigade need to be far more intelligent in the arguments they put forward.

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Mon 24 Jul 2023 20:47
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - Chris M

A question. Do all home wall chargers now work with all EVs? At c£1k I'd hope so.

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Mon 24 Jul 2023 21:01
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - mcb100
Yes. And no.
The physical connections are standardised, namely a Type 2 AC plug, Some older Japanese stuff may have a CHAdeMO, but they’re Betamax vs everyone else’s VHS.
The ‘no’ is because, for example, Octopus’ Intelligent Octopus’ tariff works with some cars or any car with an Ohme charger.
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Mon 24 Jul 2023 21:47
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - mcb100
To continue the reply a little further, public chargers are also standardised.
You’ll find AC ones, typically in supermarket car parks that will output, maybe, 11kW. Same Type 2 plugs. There are faster AC sources, but the limit is what the car’s onboard inverter will handle. It has to convert the incoming AC to DC for the battery. 22kW is the fastest AC charge I know of, Renault Megane E-Tech.
If you want to charge more quickly, it’s via DC and straight into the battery. This connector is called CCS (Combined Charge System) and uses the same Type 2 socket, plus an additional 2 pins for charging. This cable and plug are always tethered to the charger.
You may find Type 2 AC, CCS and CHAdeMO cables on each charger, but I am noticing that the newer rapids are CCS only.
Tesla use exactly the same hardware on their equipment, but most are restricted to Tesla only as the car and charger do their ‘electronic handshake’.
The fastest chargers I’m aware of are 360kW, but I can’t think of anything that’ll charge that quickly. Maybe the Porsche. Fastest I’ve seen is c220kW in a Genesis.
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Mon 24 Jul 2023 22:17
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - Chris M

Thanks mcb.

I think I'm correct in saying the most you can charge at home is 7kW? Presumably because that's all a domestic supply can manage. When neighbours had their Q4 delivered last year, it took months for the charger to be installed because back in the 70's, the penny pinching builders had put in a shared supply with their next door neighbour. The fix was having their drive dug up and the road with a new supply cable for half the street. Each step carried out by a different crew. Half a day here, a day there.

Another question. Are wall chargers ever installed inside in garages? They always appear to be outside, presumably because owners like getting cold and wet in winter ;)

Edited by Chris M on 24/07/2023 at 22:18

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Mon 24 Jul 2023 22:25
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - mcb100
Unless you’ve a 3 phase supply to the house, in which case you’ll get 22kW. But that’s more than most EV’s will take via AC.
Yes, you can install inside a garage. Maybe you only see the outside installs because the others are inside :). Not sure how many garage owners actually put a car in one. Park on the drive, use a tethered cable from the box, plug in and go in.
Any timers can be set via an app.
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Mon 24 Jul 2023 22:33
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - sammy1

"Another question. Are wall chargers ever installed inside in garages? They always appear to be outside, presumably because owners like getting cold and wet in winter ;)

I think the answer is yes. I would however check with your house insurer. I personally would not be confident charging in a garage. It always makes me smile the bit about getting cold and wet. At least some dedicated stations are under cover

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Mon 24 Jul 2023 22:41
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - mcb100
‘ least some dedicated stations are under cover ‘

If your car had a roof, they’re all under cover. It’s a matter of seconds to plug in, start a charge and then sit in a warm (and dry) car.
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Mon 24 Jul 2023 22:21
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - sammy1

"""he thread started by comparing insurance costs for two very different cars and drawing conclusions from that - utterly fatuous. To be remotely convincing, the anti-EV brigade need to be far more intelligent in the arguments they put forward"""

My intelligent but NOT anti reply is in the Purchase price of some £10k on average price difference. Then on your fuel figures which are unsustainable going forward a difference of £1k pa means a 10 year payback on fuel savings to recoup inflated price. I also have little confidence in resale values as customer confidence is not strong. There are reports in todays press that there are problems nation wide connecting chargers to the Grid. Tesla keep getting a mention but their heavy discounts perhaps tell a different story.

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Mon 24 Jul 2023 22:58
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - pd

Tesla residuals are excellent for £40k+ cars.

They retain an easy 50-60% of their new price after 3 years which in the context of volume car depreciation is superb.

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Wed 26 Jul 2023 21:19
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - madf

Tesla residuals are excellent for £40k+ cars.

They retain an easy 50-60% of their new price after 3 years which in the context of volume car depreciation is superb.

Recent price cuts have changed that a bit

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Wed 26 Jul 2023 22:21
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - pd

Tesla residuals are excellent for £40k+ cars.

They retain an easy 50-60% of their new price after 3 years which in the context of volume car depreciation is superb.

Recent price cuts have changed that a bit

I disagree. They were just absurdly good before they are now just excellent.

A bit of depreciation is never all bad though as it brings used ones into new markets.

Any volume, expensive, car retaining 50-60% after 3 years is historically a very low depreciator.

I'm amazed at how expensive early Model S are still as well. By comparison a 7 Series or A8 from the same era and mileage is worth about £3.50.

I picked up a very nice 2013 Jaguar XJ last month for £5800. An equivalent Model S would have been about £18000+.

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Thu 27 Jul 2023 18:55
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - movilogo

Labour council using diesel generators to charge electric bin lorries

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/27/labour-cardiff.../

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Thu 27 Jul 2023 19:17
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - Adampr

Labour council using diesel generators to charge electric bin lorries

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/27/labour-cardiff.../

The article even states that they are not, in fact, using them to charge the lorries; they're back-ups.

Edited by Adampr on 27/07/2023 at 19:18

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Fri 28 Jul 2023 12:03
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - John F

They retain an easy 50-60% of their new price after 3 years which in the context I'm amazed at how expensive early Model S are still as well. By comparison a 7 Series or A8 from the same era and mileage is worth about £3.50.

I picked up a very nice 2013 Jaguar XJ last month for £5800. An equivalent Model S would have been about £18000+.

Well done - a good example of how a nice big car can be had with little worry about depreciation, especially as Jaguar copied Audi in making them out of aluminium, so they should last far better than their rusty predecessors (assuming they are made as well as the Audi A8 'spaceframe' technology). In ten years time when it's 20yrs old it should still be worth something........possibly as much as my £3.50 A8 which is now at least 7yrs older than the earliest Tesla S;-)

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Fri 28 Jul 2023 12:21
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - Andrew-T

£3.50, John ? Really ?? Weren't you overcharged ? :-)

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Wed 9 Aug 2023 16:49
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - madf

Further to my original post on 24th June:

"Cheapest fully comprehensive insurance 11 years NCD ,6,000 miles pa

Jazz: £240, Renault Zoe £399, BMW i3 £450, Tesla Model 3 £799 (All latest quotes)"

I have just updated the quoted insurance cost for a BMWI3 : risen from £450 to £488...8.4% increase ..in 6 weeks Annualised 72.8%

EV insurance costs continue to rise dramatically it would appear.

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Wed 9 Aug 2023 20:01
Tesla Model 3 - EVs much more expensive to run than ICE cars - SLO76
No offence, but the only relevant information there really is the quotes between the Jazz and the Zoe. Check quotes for other high performance £40-£50k cars and you’ll find little change from your Tesla quote I imagine. I found our Leaf no different to our previous and similarly sized Honda HRV to insure but the £159 more to insure the Zoe is wiped out by the first months fuel or the annual road tax. Assuming a used purchase at similar money I’d take the more powerful, nicer to drive and cheaper to run Zoe despite the small difference in insurance. But from our own limited experience EV’s we’ve not found any noticeable difference in insurance cost.

Edited by SLO76 on 09/08/2023 at 20:09

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If you cover no more than 100 miles per day and have easy access to a charging point at home or work, then an EV is ideal for you.

Is an electric car right for me?