Mini Clubman - The 36 point mark.

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Fri 5 Feb 2021 17:15
Mini Clubman - The 36 point mark. - Andy Whitwham

Hi All,

Im in the process of deciding whether or not to appeal against a speeding fine ( speed camera). Evidently I was doing 36mph, I know I wasnt as I live virtually opposite the camera and I never, ever drive more than 30mph thesedays as Ive been caught 4 times in the last 4 years ...not good, I know but Im from the 1970's era where 30-35mph wasnt considered fast BUT, no excuse and I'd be happy to take my punishment if I wernt disputing the vailidity of this camera. Others in the village have also been clocked at 36mph by this camera. I emailed the local West Yorks Camera Unit who replied saying yes, there had been a problem recently with that particular camera.

Now for the reason Im posting in this thread... Im currently sat with 9 penalty points on my licence and if I plead guilty and take 3 more it will mean a ban, something which will decimate my home and working life. My question is this : Two of the three SP 30's are due to be taken off my licence before October ( one in April and the other in Setember). I spoke to a solicitor today who advised me that if I pleaded guilty, and he seemed to think I have a good case, there is a probability the case wouldnt be heard until at least the end of the year. If this is the case, by the time Im in court my licence will only be showing 3 points ( as 2 x 3points will already have been removed)...would the court take the state of my licence at the time of the court case, or would they take the state of my licence from the date of the offence ( 07.01.21 ) ?

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Fri 5 Feb 2021 19:59
Mini Clubman - The 36 point mark. - Middleman

I hope you didn't pay the solicitor for his advice. If you did I would ask for a refund. It is the date of the offences which are used to calculate the three year period for "totting up" purposes. The date you are convicted is irrelevant. You should be offered a course for that speed. Have you done one for an offence that occurred in the three years prior to this one? If so, you have two choices:

1. Plead Not Guilty on the basis the reading cannot be relied upon to convict you. The burden then shifts to you to prove that it was incorrect in your particular case (showing there have been "problems" with the camera will not do). Did West Yorks police say what these problems were?

2. Plead Guilty, get three points and present an "Exceptional Hardship" argument to avoid a ban. You will have to show that the hardship you and/or others will suffer if you are disqualified - as the term implies - must be exceptional. That is over and above that which would be visited on anybody else who was banned from driving. Losing one's job alone is not normally sufficient. Magistrates guidance on this issue was reinforced last year as it was felt too broad an interpretation was being given to the term "exceptional." You will have to show it is exceptional and that no alternatives are available to mitigate it.

If you post up your proposed argument on here I'll let you know what I think.

BTW - I note you say your previous convictions were over a four year period. Although the endorsements remain on your driving record for four years, the "totting up" period is three years. What was the date of your earliest offence (and this latest one)? I should also ask the solicitor why he believes your case will not be heard for eleven months. The prosecution must begin court proceedings within six months of the offence and even with a NG plea your case should be heard shortly after that.

Edited by Middleman on 05/02/2021 at 20:13

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Fri 5 Feb 2021 20:38
Mini Clubman - The 36 point mark. - Andy Whitwham

Hi, many thanks for your comments, much appreciated. I have done a speed awareness course in the last 3 years so that option would not be offered. The answers that I have to your bullet points are as follows :

1). Someone else who was 'caught' emailed the West Yorks Camera Unit and suggested they might want to check the camera in question as not only did I get a speeding fine which I believe was innacurate, a few other people did too. They did reply to this persons email, this email reading :

Classification: OFFICIAL

Good afternoon,
I have spoken to a technician who has advised that they are aware of an
issue with this camera and the matter has already been reported to
Truvelo for their engineer to make good.

Kind Regards
xxxxx (xxxxx)
West Yorkshire Police
Prosecutions & Casualty Prevention unit
Camera Section

I too have emailed the camera unit (29/01/21), and am awaiting a reply. So there certainly has been a problem with that particular camera.

2) The exceptional hardship option has already been used so not an option.

As for my earliest offence, the date of this was 29th April 2017, then 30th Sept 2017 and third was 7th May 2018.

Reading through this must make people think Im a terrible driver, but far from it,I'm 65 yrs old & I have been driving since 1972, up to 50k miles a year and never had an accident or a claim. Over the last 3 or 4 years they have put cameras up in so many new places in this area and I guess its taking some getting used to . Stupid thing is the fastest I was going in any of the 3 SP30's was 35mph.

Finally, and this is my biggest argument, IF I can get their photographic evidence then fine, nothing i can do, but if they refuse to provide me with that evidence then why the hell should I be banned for driving less than 30mph. I didnt pay the solicitor any money, they wanted at least £1000 - £2000 depending how much work they had to do.

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Fri 5 Feb 2021 20:44
Mini Clubman - The 36 point mark. - RT

As for my earliest offence, the date of this was 29th April 2017, then 30th Sept 2017 and third was 7th May 2018..

Looking at those dates you only have 3 active points on your licence - the first two are more than 3 years old so not included.

On that basis, accept the offer of a Fixed Penalty Notice as a court appearance will cost you more.

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Fri 5 Feb 2021 21:04
Mini Clubman - The 36 point mark. - Andy Whitwham

Once again thanks for your reply, I hope your right about the points and dates, as I understood that even though two of the three SP30's say expired next to them, I thought that they were not removed for another 12 months and therefore still counted for penalty point inclusion?

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Fri 5 Feb 2021 21:12
Mini Clubman - The 36 point mark. - Middleman

As above, if the offence was committed fairly recently (and in any case later than 29th April 2020) you will not "tot up". The totting up period is three years (offence dates counting). The endorsements remain on your record for four years. That's why the oldest two say "expired".

You are not entitled to any evidence at this stage. If you have not already named yourself as driver you could ask for "photographs to help identify the driver". They may help confirm your speed but probably not. Unless you are confident of proving the measurement of your speed cannot be relied upon to prove you were exceeding 30mph you would be well advised to accept the fixed penalty offer. If you are convicted following a trial it will cost you half a week's net income, a Victim Surcharge of 10% of the fine (Minimum £34) and £620 costs. Not much change from £1,000 for most people. If you really want to you could spend a lot more:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-4...3

Edited by Middleman on 05/02/2021 at 21:14

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Fri 5 Feb 2021 21:27
Mini Clubman - The 36 point mark. - Andy Whitwham

Well that's made me feel a little better, the 'offence' was on Jan 7th this year. To be honest I cannot afford the cost of hiring a solicitor and was dreading representing myself in a court. I have already sent back the admission that I was the driver, because I was, and with the paperwork that came with the other SP30's there was a link to a website where I could go view the taken photograph. On this latest paperwork there is no link to view anything.

Okay, sorry for taking up your time, but its much appreciated... ~ andy.

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Mon 8 Feb 2021 14:21
Mini Clubman - The 36 point mark. - Jean Milburn

Informative

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Tue 9 Feb 2021 08:40
Mini Clubman - The 36 point mark. - Catfood

I am really sorry to say this but I have difficulty understanding what I read here. It appears you don't learn from your previous mistake and constantly repeating the same error. If you are caught doing 36, your speed should be showing somewhere near 40. No sympathy from me and hope you are banned from driving for a while for the safety of other road users.

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Tue 9 Feb 2021 10:45
Mini Clubman - The 36 point mark. - Middleman

I am really sorry to say this but I have difficulty understanding what I read here. It appears you don't learn from your previous mistake and constantly repeating the same error. If you are caught doing 36, your speed should be showing somewhere near 40. No sympathy from me and hope you are banned from driving for a while for the safety of other road users.

If you're having difficulty understanding what you read it may be because you are more intent on providing the OP with "no sympathy" than you are with helping answer his question. The OP did not come here for sympathy. He came here to find out how the three-year "totting up" period is calculated. Have you any information which may help him with that?

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Tue 9 Feb 2021 11:20
Mini Clubman - The 36 point mark. - lordwoody

"No sympathy from me and hope you are banned from driving for a while for the safety of other road users."

I was thinking much the same

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Tue 9 Feb 2021 18:39
Mini Clubman - The 36 point mark. - Avant

I think that in a thread like this we should either offer advice in answer to the question, or not say anything at all.

I can't see how 'no sympathy from me' is supposed to be helpful.

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Tue 9 Feb 2021 19:16
Mini Clubman - The 36 point mark. - Brit_in_Germany

Especially as the OP indicated that the camera may have been faulty, supported by reasonable material.

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