n/a - notice of intended prosecution

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Wed 24 Jan 2018 14:24
n/a - notice of intended prosecution - JohnAvo

Any advice would be gratefully received.

I lent my car to my brother's mate (from Austrailia) whilst he was over here. He told me he was insured and so I trusted him. After he left, I got a NIP from the police for speeding! I am f#'king fuming.

I have informed the police of his details, but now they are asking for how he got into the country and on what date and time! I simply have no idea (obviously by plane, but I have no idea of when, what airport, what airline etc). Any ideas what I should do?

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Wed 24 Jan 2018 14:35
n/a - notice of intended prosecution - skidpan

Any ideas what I should do?

In a word PANIC

Letting someone drive your car with no insurance (potentially) and no record of who they are (surely your brother will know) is pretty daft.

Best of luck.

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Wed 24 Jan 2018 16:58
n/a - notice of intended prosecution - FP

There is nothing to be gained by being anything other than truthful. Answer all questions asked of you, and if some of the answers are "I don't know", so be it.

Be prepared for follow-up questions which may involve you finding out the things you don't presently know. (E.g. getting your brother to enquire.)

You must understand the police have heard this sort of story before and they are entitled to be sceptical.

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Wed 24 Jan 2018 17:30
n/a - notice of intended prosecution - JohnAvo

Sure I can appreciate that the police would have heard every excuse under the sun. But I am sure some of the excuses were legitimate like mine!

I agree with skidpan that I have been fking stupid. If I wanted to settle the matter and accept the fine, can I do so now? I don't have any points on my licence and I think I should be offered the speed awareness course.

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Wed 24 Jan 2018 17:35
n/a - notice of intended prosecution - RobJP

Sure I can appreciate that the police would have heard every excuse under the sun. But I am sure some of the excuses were legitimate like mine!

I agree with skidpan that I have been fking stupid. If I wanted to settle the matter and accept the fine, can I do so now? I don't have any points on my licence and I think I should be offered the speed awareness course.

That would be a very stupid idea.

You would by lying to the Police, and obstructing justice. People have gone to prison for giving false details as to who was driving in rather similar cases.

Answer all questions with the utmost truth. If the honest answer to a question is "I don't know", then give that answer. Don't get creative. Don't speculate.

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Wed 24 Jan 2018 18:47
n/a - notice of intended prosecution - ExA35Owner

You have these problems:

1. You have named an overseas driver. The police will be sceptical. They are likely to suspect you are trying to pervert the course of justice. If you can't substantiate your nomination they may well launch an investigation followed by a prosecution for that offence, which carries jail time not just a fine and points. So providing all the supporting evidence you can is vital.

2. You have allowed an overseas driver to drive your car. It's highly unlikely that his Australian policy would cover him. If it doesn't you have committed the offence o permitting him to drive uninsured, and that carries 6 points and a hefty fine, followed by pain with insurance premiums for years to come. So getting the insurance evidence is also vital.

3. Having told the Police one person was driving they won't be impressed with "Oops, it was me" and might (a) go for PCOJ (b) retract the course / fixed penalty offer so you'd go to court for the offence (still 3 points, but bigger fine).

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Wed 24 Jan 2018 18:51
n/a - notice of intended prosecution - Bromptonaut

I agree with skidpan that I have been fking stupid. If I wanted to settle the matter and accept the fine, can I do so now? I don't have any points on my licence and I think I should be offered the speed awareness course.

Telling the police you were driving when you were not would have risked a charge of perverting the course of justice. Initially that might have been a remote chance, of that happening. I'm sure husbands/wives swap points on a regular basis. Chris Huhne and his wife are exemplars of what happens if it goes wrong - both went to jail.

Saying, presumably truthfully, a foreigner was driving and then retracting that story when the going gets tough would be foolhardy in the extreme. You'd be all but inviting yourself to be arrested on suspicion of perverting the course of justice.

All you can do is answer the questions truthfully and in worst case take a rap for permitting your brother's mate to drive uninsured.

You may need proper legal advice. The sort you pay for not best guesses by some blokes on the internet.

What persuaded you that he was insured to drive in UK? How much would it have cost to properly add him to your policy as a temp additional driver?

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Wed 24 Jan 2018 19:35
n/a - notice of intended prosecution - Middleman

You may need proper legal advice.

And the advice you will be given is that the police will not chase an Australian citizen in Australia for an allegation of speeding. Of course that presents a “get-out-of-jail free” card for those speeding. Simply say your brother’s mate was driving and he’s now returned to Australia. Except that it doesn’t work like that. The police will pursue the insurance matter and they will ask you to prove that the driver of your vehicle was insured. You are unlikely to be able to do that so they will charge you with permitting your vehicle to be driven uninsured. The speeding matter is now all but dead and buried.

Edited by Middleman on 24/01/2018 at 19:36

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Wed 24 Jan 2018 19:54
n/a - notice of intended prosecution - RT

You may need proper legal advice.

And the advice you will be given is that the police will not chase an Australian citizen in Australia for an allegation of speeding. Of course that presents a “get-out-of-jail free” card for those speeding. Simply say your brother’s mate was driving and he’s now returned to Australia. Except that it doesn’t work like that. The police will pursue the insurance matter and they will ask you to prove that the driver of your vehicle was insured. You are unlikely to be able to do that so they will charge you with permitting your vehicle to be driven uninsured. The speeding matter is now all but dead and buried.

The speeding may be "dead" but the S172 obligation to identify the driver still stands and carries a similar penalty to speeding.

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Wed 24 Jan 2018 21:13
n/a - notice of intended prosecution - scot22

I go with Rob's advice and don't complicate things. Simply tell the police the truth then there can be no comeback for lying. That would certainly worsen your position.

Also as said - get paid for legal advice. Forums are fine but do not have the worth of qualified professional advice.

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Sun 28 Jan 2018 17:52
n/a - notice of intended prosecution - HGV ~ P Valentine

He did not say he retracted the story.

Edited by 30 yr's a Professional Driver on 28/01/2018 at 17:52

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Mon 29 Jan 2018 08:59
n/a - notice of intended prosecution - Bromptonaut

He did not say he retracted the story.

If you read his post 24-01-18 @ 17:30 he pretty clearly states that he was considering doing so.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 29/01/2018 at 09:00

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Tue 30 Jan 2018 18:31
n/a - notice of intended prosecution - concrete
This really is simple. Remember what happened to Vicky Price when she agreed to take points for her husband, Chris Huhn? She was goaled and served a prison sentance. Just be truthful and you should be fine. You may have to demonstrate your non involvement (alibi) but that is the price we pay for the freedoms we have. Your brother could surely help in this situation, he should offer some support when it comes to identifying the actual offender. Justice may be slow and blind but responds to facts and evidence; so produce some. Your path is clear. Follow it. Good luck. Cheers Concrete
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Sun 28 Jan 2018 18:21
n/a - notice of intended prosecution - HGV ~ P Valentine

Ok you know how daft you have been so need to say anything on that, esp as he was your brothers mate and not yours.

I would suggest you get your brother to get his details, but it still depends on him admitting he was driving the car, if he said no then they will accept that unless you can prove otherwise, which I am assuming you cannot, the police will assume you have made this up to get out of the penalty, your only hope is that this other person signs a statement admitting he was driving, with witnesses or the local police. But driving without insurance is a serious offence in any country and I doubt he will admit it, I know it is expensive to call but get this guys number and call him, the reason I don't think he will help you is he must have known he was not insured at the time.

I can tell you that the airline will not give you any passenger information, they would face prosocution if they did, so you can forget about that.

I agree that you should not lie about anything if you don't know then just say that you don't know, anything less then the truth will land you in more trouble then you already are, whatever you do do not change your story, decide what you want to say and stick to it.

One final thing is that time is not on your side, so if you cannot get him to admit to the driving offence, then I suggest you go to the police tell them he is not willing to admit to it and see where you go from there, it will be better for you if you go to them rather then have them come and find you, and I assure you they will.

If you cop for this and it sounds like you will have no choice you can expect your insurance cost to hit the moon, any car will be expensive after this, and most car hire companies will not let you hire a car.

Anyway I wish you luck, PValentine1965@live.co.uk I would like to know how this gets resolved if you have the time to let me know.

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Sun 28 Jan 2018 18:26
n/a - notice of intended prosecution - HGV ~ P Valentine

P.s. if they have issued the notice already they may very well have tried to get hold of your brothers mate and failed. as the registered owner you remain responsible and even if he was driving, you will still face prosocuion of one sort or another. so him driving does not let you off the hook unless he stole it.

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Sun 28 Jan 2018 20:38
n/a - notice of intended prosecution - Middleman

The speeding may be "dead" but the S172 obligation to identify the driver still stands and carries a similar penalty to speeding.

It carries a harsher penalty than low level speeding, in fact. It means six points and an endorsement code (MS90) that insurers dislike even more than speeding. But it seems the OP has fulfilled his obligation as far as responding to the S172 notice:

I have informed the police of his details,

If the police disbelieve him it is always open to them to accuse him of Attempting to Pervert the Course of Justice. However, far easier will be the "insurance" issue. One thing is for sure, they are not going to waste postage stamps sending NIPs and S172 notices to Australia.

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Tue 30 Jan 2018 21:34
n/a - notice of intended prosecution - HGV ~ P Valentine

I think you are right they wont chase him. in australia, and besides even if they did catch up with him, they could still prosecute both of them, one for do ing the driving and the owner for allowing ti to happen..

I thought it was one or the other but both can be charged, I checked.

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Mon 29 Jan 2018 09:07
n/a - notice of intended prosecution - Bromptonaut

The Police interest in flight numbers etc is to test the veracity of the OP's story. In this case it seems to been a real foreigner driving but the authorities are very familiar with 'imaginary friends' from abroad apparently driving when the camera was pinged.

At moment OP faces possibility of beng charged with 'causing and permitting' uninsured driving. That's serious enough but pales into insignificance compared with perverting thecourse of justice for which time inside is, without serious mitigation, nigh on certain.

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