Distance Selling - car return refused

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Thu 1 Nov 2012 10:24
Distance Selling - car return refused - MCMM


Hello back roomers - I wonder if you can help me?

I'll keep the details brief just now and am happy to provide more if you wish.

I bought a car recently from a car dealer after seeing an ad on Auto Trader. I called them up and discussed the vehicle, then did some background checks on it's service history etc. I then called up and agreed to buy the car over the phone and take delivery of it 2 days later. I paid a deposit by credit card on the phone call then paid the remainder of the balance to the dealer via bank transfer. 2 days later the car was delivered to me near my place of work. I signed for receipt of the car at this point. At no time did I set foot in the dealers place of business. The car was in no way customised for me.

After deliberation I decided I did not want to keep the car (for a number of reasons related it it's condition) and informed the dealer via phone and email of this. This was after 5 days so still within the cooling off period that should apply. I offered to drive the car to the dealers that afternoon to return it. The dealer refused to take delivery of the car until he had considered it further. I have now received confirmation from the Manager that they will not take the vehicle back. They are completely resistant to the idea that Distance Selling Regulations apply here and won't discuss it.

What are your thoughts?

Am I wrong - after looking through everything I can see on Distance Selling this seems to be a fairly straightforward case.

What would you recommend as next steps? I'd rather not end up in Court and resolve this some other way but will go down that route if needed .......

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Thu 1 Nov 2012 11:23
Distance Selling - car return refused - tony g
(They are completely resistant to the idea that Distance Selling Regulations apply here and won't discuss it.)

It's a none issue the dealer must take the car back ,the only issue is enforcing your rights .Dont drive the car ,write to the dealer by registered post ,telling them that if they don't refund your money within 7 days you will pursue them for the funds via the small claims court .Its a simple process .I believe the maximum you can claim is £5000 ,please check .

You should also contact your credit card company who paid the deposit on your behalf ,they should be able to recover your deposit for you ,send them a copy of your letter to the dealer .

Please let the forum know the outcome .


Edited by tony g on 01/11/2012 at 11:26

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Thu 1 Nov 2012 12:20
Distance Selling - car return refused - MCMM

tony g - Thanks for the reponse.

One problem I have is that I can't really get another car while I have this one - I have to keep my insurance on it and don't really have anywhere reasonable to put it if I have another vehicle. I have informed the dealer of this and offered to return it on any given day - but as long as it remains with me I will drive it. The fact that I have the car is a headache.

The car cost was more than £5000 so it'll be a trip to a higher level court - you are right that £5000 is the small claim court limit.

I'm keeping the credit card company contact in my back pocket for now - the deposit is only 5% of the car value so getting that back in advance is little consolation.

All communication is by email - fortunately I have a positive email respone from the dealer to say they have received and read my emails. I believe a registered post letter is therefore not necessary. Does anyone think this is insufficient? The oft guideline on this is as follows:

Q - Can a consumer just ring my office to cancel?
A - No, unless your contract expressly allows for cancellation by phone,
a phone call is not enough. If they are exercising their right under the
DSRs the consumer has either to leave the notice at the address of
your business specified in 3.5 above (further information provision –
Regulation 8), or to send it by post, by fax or by email.

Any suggestions on motor trade groups (or other groups) who might persuade the dealer that he will lose and to just pay up?

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Thu 1 Nov 2012 13:18
Distance Selling - car return refused - tony g
Hi,sadly the situation becomes more difficult if you can't pursue the problem in the small claims court .its a much longer process if you have to proceed through a county court .in addition you will weaken your case if you continue to drive the car.

Their are no trade bodies that I am aware of that can help ,from experience you will find that consumer protection and trading standards are pretty much useless organisations in situations like this .They are only effective in dealing with persistent flouting of consumer rights by a business .

If the dealer is part of a large group you could try writing to the managing director and ask him to intervene .

One interesting point you raise is the deposit paid by credit card ,it may not be a large sum ,but it may be equal to all the profit the dealer made from the sale of the car ,if you can recover that you have a lever against the dealer .He would have to pursue you through the legal system to recover the money .It will give you a chance to make a counter claim .

Alternatively you could use the recovered deposit to rectify the faults you say the car has.

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Thu 1 Nov 2012 15:18
Distance Selling - car return refused - Dwight Van Driver

Read:

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/2334/contents/made

go to Explanatory Note at bottom for a more concise report.

If you have a Trading StardardsOffice near you pop in that they will confirmytour exact rights.

dvd

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Thu 1 Nov 2012 16:40
Distance Selling - car return refused - MCMM

Thanks for the link.

No Trading Standards Office handy but I have spoken to Citizens Advise who confirmed that both the Distance Selling Regulations and Sale of Goods Act offer justification in this case for asking for a refund.

I believe DSR's are more useful in this case as it avoids any need to argue over whether the car was as described and if the flaws are to be expected for a car of that age etc. As per your link - with DSR as long as the seller is notified within the 7 days cooling off period that the goods are unwanted they can be returned. The reasons for the return are not relevant.

Doesn't make the prospect of going through a full court process any better though :/

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Thu 1 Nov 2012 17:42
Distance Selling - car return refused - MCMM

The situation regarding driving the car is a worry - but I really don't see any reasonable way of using another car, whether rental or purchase. Need to have a think on that.

Unfortunately we aren't talking about a large group here.

Your point on the credit card is useful and something I may pursue if my latest attempts at reconciliation are ignored or refused. I am concerned that if I used a chargeback to recover money to pay for the faults i'd make the legal situation more murky, at the moment it feels quite clean cut. Also the deposit wouldn't fully cover repairs - though it would come close.

Cheers again for your input.

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Fri 2 Nov 2012 08:05
Distance Selling - car return refused - thunderbird

Surely by continuing to use the car you are clearly indicating that you are happy with the condition, I would not use a car I was unhappy with.

Shooting yourself in the foot as far a getting a refund.

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Fri 2 Nov 2012 09:00
Distance Selling - car return refused - MCMM

I take your point but the condition is irrelevant to my rights under Distance Selling Regulations.

"I would not use a car I was unhappy with."

It's safe so I have no major issue driving it.

Comes down to storage/insurance/replacement rental cost vs the possibility that driving it makes my claim less likely to succeed.

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Fri 2 Nov 2012 09:38
Distance Selling - car return refused - bathtub tom

Consider it from the dealers point of view:

I've got this punter that wanted a car for a few days, but was too mean to hire one. So he agrees to buy one of mine,sight unseen, then wants to return it for a full refund under the distance selling regulations. He even expects me to deliver and collect it at no charge to him, meanwhile he's still driving around in it.

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Fri 2 Nov 2012 11:14
Distance Selling - car return refused - MCMM

"I've got this punter that wanted a car for a few days, but was too mean to hire one." - LOL - yeah this legal wrangling is way easier than hiring a car!!

"collect it at no charge to him" - I've offered to drop it at the dealership pretty much whenever they want - they refuse to accept it.

"meanwhile he's still driving around in it." - yes, it is highly inconvenient and costly to do anything else.

To be fair to the dealer they don't seem to understand any of their responsibilities under Sale of Goods or Distance Selling and think I am making this stuff up.

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Fri 2 Nov 2012 11:22
Distance Selling - car return refused - tony g
Hi bt,
Fair comment ,as a dealer this would drive me up the wall ,however I'm sure that's not the issue here .Its the stupidity of consumer legislation that allows a situation like this to happen .

The reality of the whole issue is not the buyers rights ,they are not in question .The issue is getting the dealer to comply.

From reading the various comments from the op he doesn't come across a sufficiently determined to resolve the problem .ie ,he wants to continue using the car ,he's not keen to recover his deposit from the credit card company ,he's not asked a solicitor to act on his behalf .He comes across as ambivalent about suggestions made by forum members .

If I was in his situation I would have returned the car to the dealer by now and would be attempting to recover my deposit from the credit card company .

Tony g
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Fri 2 Nov 2012 11:48
Distance Selling - car return refused - MCMM

I will use a solicitor no doubt about it - but I have to allow time for the dealer to reply to my request that he reconsider his decision. Likewise with attempting chargebacks etc. It is only a matter of days since the 7 day period elapsed. I am trying to be reasonable.

"he wants to continue using the car' - not really - I want to hand it back asap

" I would have returned the car to the dealer by now" - how? I want a receipt saying they have received it and they refuse to do this. If I just leave it on their forecourt and post the keys I have no money, no car, no proof that I have delivered it, nothing. Genuinely interested in how you would return it ...

"He comes across as ambivalent about suggestions made by forum members . " I am somewhat ambivalent about most of them but grateful that they have been offered!

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Fri 2 Nov 2012 12:51
Distance Selling - car return refused - Rats

One interesting point you raise is the deposit paid by credit card

My understanding, but please correct me if I am wrong, is that even if only a small percentage of a purchase is made by credit card, then the credit card company have responsibility and a claim can be made against/through them....

Maight be worth pursuing?

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Fri 2 Nov 2012 13:13
Distance Selling - car return refused - MCMM

Rats - I am hoping you are right.

I did some digging on this and haven't found anything definitive on whether I can claim against the CC company based on DSR's but it looks good. I'll pick up if I get another no or the dealer fails to reply within the time frame i've set.

I'm easy for the dealer to ignore just now - probably more of a worry for them if a Credit Card company starts threatening action!

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Fri 2 Nov 2012 13:14
Distance Selling - car return refused - tony g
Hi rats ,I think you may be right about the credit card company being responsible for the whole of the monies paid .under what circumstances I'm not sure .

I seem to remember a post on that theme by Dwite van driver a few months ago .

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Fri 2 Nov 2012 13:16
Distance Selling - car return refused - Rats

If I am correct, my pleasure, if I am wrong, apologies in advance, hopefully a quick google search should throw up some help, sorry, I don't have enough time to look right now, but will check back in later and if this is still unanswered, will do a bit of digging.

Cheers

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Fri 2 Nov 2012 14:27
Distance Selling - car return refused - Dwight Van Driver

If you buy something and put a deposit down (over £100) using a credit card and later pay the remained in cash then Section 75 kicks in and Credit Company become responsible.

Dont believe me? Do you respect Which? Here is what they say:

Second Red header - down second Para

tinyurl.com/cktjfxr

dvd

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Fri 2 Nov 2012 15:33
Distance Selling - car return refused - MCMM

Cheers DVD

Seems totally undisputable when it comes to company going bankrupt and in other circumstances but they suggest here it may not apply to DSR's:

www.creditlaw.co.uk/distance-selling-regulations-e...l

Clearly we don't know much about this solicitor and what authority they have on the matter but it does raise a doubt at least.

Hopefully a breach of DSR's counts as a breech of contract - in which case Section 75 should be valid. Will probaby find out in time ....

I'll keep posting as it progresses ....

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Fri 9 Nov 2012 12:32
Distance Selling - car return refused - MCMM

So after a conversation with the owner of the dealership they finally agreed to take the car back and provide a full refund.

Hours later I drove the car to the dealers (first time i'd been there) and handed it back. Case closed - well, assuming the cheque clears ;)

A few notes for anyone having the same issue:

The Credit Card companies (or at least mine - Barclaycard) don't treat a breach of Distance Selling Regulations as a breach of contract and may not allow it as a reason under Section 75 for them to assume liability. They are much more likely to allow the claim under the Sale of Goods Act if the goods aren't as described.

Read the detail of the DSR's - unless you get clear terms and conditions at the time of sale the cooling off period extends beyond 7 days - potentially up to 3 months and 7 days

Don't back down on your rights!

In conclusion I'd say that eventually the dealer, despite being quite bitter, was fair and wanted to play within the rules. I'll leave their name out of this thread but will provide some positive feedback elsewhere on the internet as ultimately they did the right thing.

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