Been pondering this for several weeks. An old & respected friend sat in my new Octavia after I'd sat in his new BMW. He said that he would not be able to drive my car safely , as he could not reach the brake pedal without lifting his foot off the floor. The brake pedal is indeed a couple of inches above the accelerator even at rest. In the BMW you just slide across to the brake pedal , keeping your heel on the carpet.
I remember Motor magazine commenting on such a problem in the 1970s and a 'cure' was to build the accelerator pedal up with a wooden block.
I've never really noticed the problem, but there must be a time delay in going from one pedal to another. Similar set up to all the VWs I 've owned.
Comments?
|
In the case probably half the cars in the world are dangerous to drive. The time delay between sliding your foot from one to the other as opposed to lifting it from one to the other is minimal
|
|
|
Cars vary quite a lot in their pedal geometry.
If you think about it though GWS, one of the times when you may have to brake swiftly is when you are accelerating hard, with the throttle pedal right down. So you have to lift your foot anyway. I can't say this has ever mattered from the emergency-braking point of view.
Where this geometry does matter is in older sporting vehicles in which a heel-and-toe technique may have to be used when braking and changing down simultaneously for a corner. I don't think people do it much on the road these days and race cars seem to have trick gearboxes, so it's more or less a thing of the past.
In many, indeed most of the cars I've driven heel-and-toeing has been awkward to impossible. The one that seemed to have been designed with it in mind was the Arna I owned briefly, an unloved model but an Alfa Romeo in its controls and engine. It was a pleasure doing it in that car, especially as the synchromesh on third gear was almost non-existent. Oddly enough the Light 15 Citroen made it easy too.
|
|
Maybe he was just a bit secretly impressed with your choice of car and had to find something wrong with it. Some people can be like that, even unexpectedly and uncharacteristically.
|
Maybe he was just a bit secretly impressed with your choice of car and had to find something wrong with it. Some people can be like that even unexpectedly and uncharacteristically.
Agreed - he was probably really impressed by your car and consequently choked that he'd spent so much more for his BMW.
|
|
|
|
Even having thought about it I cannot, without going outside to try, think whether I slide or lift my foot.
|
The only car I can think of in which the accelerator pedal at full throttle is still no higher than the brake pedal is an early DS Citroen. In those the brake pedal was a button like the foot-operated headlight dipswitches cars had in those days.
|
>>The only car I can think of in which the accelerator pedal at full throttle is still no higher than the brake pedal is an early DS Citroen. In those the brake pedal was a button like the foot-operated headlight dipswitches cars had in those days.
>>
Oh yes. IIRC the first truely power brakes. Needed a gentle foot. The first time I tried one it really was a wake up action.
Highly confusing with the manual version as IIRC there were three pedals and one was a parking brake.
>>Even having thought about it I cannot, without going outside to try, think whether I slide or lift my foot.
Me too. My Mondeo auto has the gas pedal at rest, lower than the brake pedal.
I have driven quite a few vehicles and pedal positions have never bothered me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
I'm with Humph, I've just bought a new Octavia, I did the test drive etc, but it's only after having it for a week the depth of build quality shines through. Absolutely rock solid to drive, and feels carved out of a solid block of billet. Has all the toys as well. The guys at work are impressed, most folk know Skoda have improved over the years, but have no idea the leap in quality especially the new shape Octavia. (touch screen radio, cruise, digital climate control !!!) I have a friend with a nice new shape 7 series, and while a nice motor I reckon the build on the Octavia is equal. GWS friend is just sore that the Skoda is just as good, for a lot less wonga, even better if GWS has a TDI and getting 58Mpg on a run, mine does, and the engine is obviously still tight, so it will probably improve. It's the best built car I've ever had, (did have some howlers though- Austin Maestro??), and puts a smile on my face in the driving seat. I hope it still does in 10 years time, I intend to run it for at least that.
|
|
I had an Octavia estate on hire a couple of years ago. First time I'd got up close and personal with a Skoda. I drove it for about a week and perhaps a couple of thousand miles. I think it must have been a quite up spec model as it certainly had all the toys. It was very nice indeed and I was most impressed. I'd asked the hire company for an estate car and to be honest my heart sank when they gave me those keys. However, it certainly overcame my outdated prejudice. Still got a fair bit of ribbing about it from the less informed of my associates though. If I had any real criticism it had a fairly noisy diesel engine but was otherwise very good indeed. A bit too small to be my everyday car but if wasn't I'd definitely consider one.
Edited by Humph Backbridge on 06/12/2009 at 19:16
|
When I looked at the Octavia in 2008, I thought the interior was disappointing. That was in comparison with the 2002 Mondeo that I was used to. But they had a face lift in 2009, according to CBCB, with new upholstery, stereo etc, which I haven't seen up close. I'd be surprised, though, if VAG Marketing don't still take plenty of care to differentiate their brands, and interior "quality" is ususally one area where it shows.
And I can't think of car where the pedal layout is a problem, apart from those with no space to the left of clutch.
|
|
|
|
I've thought about this too, and I don't much like having to lift the foot to go from accelerator to brake - but there are very few cars where you don't have to. My old BMW Z3 requires lifting the foot too: if new BMWs have overcome this, good for them. If anything Vauxhalls have an even bigger distance than others.
But because most care seem similarly afflicted, it can't be a deal-breaker. Maybe someone will be along in a moment and suggest some good reason for this set-up.
The only one I can think of is foot-ache (which you'd get if the accelerator were too high off the floor), coupled with a certain amount of leverage needed which prevents the brake pedal being lower than it is.
|
I figure that because i lift my foot up and then back down again, I get more pressure quicker when a heavy panic stop is required.
|
Maybe someone will be along in a moment and suggest some good reason for this set-up. <<
The reason the brake pedal is usually higher than the accelerator is in case you mash the brake in a panic stop but accidentally clip the accelerator, inadvertently urging the car into the situation you wish to avoid. Having the accelerator significantly lower than the brake means by the time you touch the fast pedal, you're at full braking anyway.
AFAIK most fly-by-wire systems will disconnect the accelerator when it senses significant pressure on the brakes so maybe this chap's BMW has the pedals set up level as a result.
In a real situation, you always lift your foot off the accelerator before hitting the middle pedal anyway so I think you'll find it a moot point - probably just a po-faced response to the well built Skoda...
Edited by Lygonos on 06/12/2009 at 22:44
|
|
Thanks to both of you. Makes perfect sense and will hopefully reassure GWS. I'm only half-Scots so I'm not sure what a scunner is, but at least he can scun safely in this knowledge.
|
My friend is indeed a heeling and toeing type enthusiast. Until recently he owned a Morgan as well as a BMW and previous to that a string of Porsches.
Now I come to think of it , also had an Alvis Silver Eagle with a centre throttle just to confuse things even more.
Thanks for all the replies.
|
Best that we don't go into the evident ergonomic problems that blight BMWs, such as the indicator stalk being beyond the reach of 95% of owners ;-)
On a serious note, I did several thousand miles in my MD's 325 (1995 model) and the offset pedals caused me bad backache. Are the pedals still offset way to the right on current models?
|
The reason for the brake pedal being significantly higher than the accelerator pedal on most cars is the fitment of dual circuit brakes.
For this system to provide a safety margin, you need twice the pedal stroke to allow for the complete failure of one circuit. This will utilise half of the pedal travel before the primary and secondary pistons make contact (or the secondary piston hits the closed end of the cylinder bore) thus allowing the working circuit to build up pressure and apply the remaining brakes.
If the accelerator pedal were to be positioned at this height, the car would be impossibly uncomfortable to drive as you need to have your heel on the floor to provide fine control at small throttle openings.
No real problem - I'm pleased to have dual citcuit brakes and "lift-off" before aplying the brakes is a natural reaction. Skoda pedals are standard VAG - including the slop in the common pivot which you can sometimes feel when using both pedals together. Cheapskates - although when you look at the assembly it's very well made so how did they manage it? All the big VAGs are the same.
659.
|
|
|
|
scunner is a pain in the posterior, glaikit is foolish/ simple which i'm sure GWS knew before he chose his nom de plume. jag.
|
|
When new to this site I asked GWS politely where he got the name. I seem to remember his grandmother used to call him it (affectionately I'm sure). It does indeed translate roughly as 'silly little brute'.
|
You can also "take a scunner" to things you know ! Roughly translates as "take a dislike"
"Ah took a fair scunner tae Renaults efter yon Espace y'ken" ......for example....
Edited by Humph Backbridge on 08/12/2009 at 17:51
|
|
|
When new to this site I asked GWS politely where he got the name. I seem to remember his grandmother used to call him it (affectionately I'm sure). It does indeed translate roughly as 'silly little brute'.
I would translate it at "dopey little disgusting person" myself...
No offence, GWS :-)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I think your respected friend should send his license back to DVLA and ask them to cancel it. If he isnt capable of applying the brakes then he shouldnt be on the road.
|
|
You can't heel and toe in VAG group cars - hit the brake and it cuts the fuel. So no left foot/trail braking either. Nannying!! (Yes, yes, I know, I drive one....)
|
doesent on mine, i can blip and brake at the same time
|
|
|
|
