I agree with all the comments posted and certainly do not condone my wife's behaviour in any shape or form. I was appalled when she received the NIP and she was suitably shocked, and sheepish about telling me. If I had been a passenger in her car then I would have warned her in no certain terms about the stupidity of such behaviour.
It just shows how a routine journey can lapse into bad driving habits.
I am guessing that she will be liable for a fine and some points?
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probably 3 points and 60-100 pounds fine.
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Might be worth pointing out here what signs say at such crossings in France, "one train may conceal another". That is, there may be one behind the one you see, or another just due. I can't remember the layout but maybe it is possible to chicane through, before the barriers are raised?
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Most crossings here have similar signs;ours also points out that trains may pass in either direction on each track!
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The reason there is a delay is it acts a safety buffer. What happens if a train approached that bit faster? What happens if there was fault on the signalling and they had to be done by hand?
I am guessing there may be points with this offence too? It amazes me also how many people go when the lights change to green without actually checking its safe to proceed.
I think we have all been guilty of knowing a route a bit too well and thinking they know the timings. I used to do this and got caught out a few times on amber so now I treat every set of lights as a new junction which means I am not more prepaired to stop for amber.
I think also with preasure just ignore them, I have been honked at a couple of times for obaying the law (or being a mimser as some may call it) but it is the idiots behind fault e.g being beeped at when the crossing is on green and I am still stopped because people are still crossing.
Also look ont he bright side, 3 points and a fine is much better than the eventual possible alternative.
Edited by Rattle on 16/11/2009 at 13:19
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Near where I live there is a busy urban level crossing with a T junction just beyond. There is only space for one car between the crossing and the stop line.
However this does not stop a significant proportion of drivers pulling onto the tracks and waiting there for the car in front to pull off from the junction. It is often busy and a wait of up to 30 seconds is not uncommon.
When the lights start to flash, and the buzzers go off, they panic, sound their horns, expect the driver in front to force their way out into 30mph free flowing traffic or even bump the car in front out of the way! A neighbour got caught like this and the barrier came down and dented the car.
With driver behaviour like this it is not surprising the railways have to allow a significant time delay before the train arrives, to identify any incidents and sort things out.
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I was always disgusted at the coverage the generally fatal level crossing accidents USED to attract here in NI.
As if there was a fault with the system or individual crossing,
in one instance I seem to recall "they" were asserting that a half barrier was not enough,
scheesh
&
when ones personal observations would lead one to conclude that it was the car driver, who nearly always was a local, & familar with the crossing, taking chances.( see half barrier as above)
*************************
However the barriers now come down seconds after the lights and "whoosh" the train goes through. There is absolutly no chance of thinking that one could beat the system.
***************************
I have also observed a set of traffic light locally that still attract people to jump the red
because the KNOW that there will be absolutly oodles of time.
Ps no camera there either
Edited by dieseldogg on 16/11/2009 at 13:58
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I've probably mentioned it before, but there's a little town near me with a level crossing just before a set of road traffic lights.
On the level crossing is a large sign that says (in French of course) 'only stop here if you can get away quickly!'
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Maybe no CCTV
We have 3 crossings in my domain all on a major route into town.
Regular for BTP to come down with a vehicle and sit and note VRM of offending vehicles
and follow up with NOIP and 172 to name driver, then depart with full notebooks....
People never learn until the wheel comes off......
dvd
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Legal and proportionate response from the BTP.
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If you must play Russian roulette, make sure you have a valid gun licence
Summarises it for me, as one of those who has to meet the driver after some idiot decides to commit suicide or drive in front of their train I have no sympathy at all for this sort of behaviour...
If your wife wishes to commit suicide so much then may I suggest she finds somewhere else to do it rather than leave some innocent train driver with that memory on his mind for the rest of his life...
Sorry to be so strong, but this sort of behaviour is NOT acceptable, and then to say she's been doing it for ages and use that as an excuse is unbelievable... Its lucky my fellow rail workers and I don't have any say in the punishment, I doubt she'd have a licence after we'd finished...
Gone to calm down now, sorry....
Edited by b308 on 16/11/2009 at 16:33
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Oh, and welcome, by the way.
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He's already said he doesn't condone going through on red, and asked what the legalities & penalty might be, did someone tell 'im?
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Yes AE did - I'm not certain whether this can be dealt with by conditional offer or fixed penalty.
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It was the initial post that wound me up, where I was getting the impression that "as its always been done its ok" attitude seemed prevale... perhaps if his missus could see the results of her actions she maight take a different attitude, remember that unlike a car which can normally take avoiding action the train can't so the driver is stuck in his or her seat just waiting for the thud of the impact...
Think about it....
Anyhow I've said enough to make my feelings known, I hope the OP reads this and shows it to his wife, and perhaps it may not be too much to hope that she takes a different attitude in future to rail crossings, and hopefully not just to avoid a fine, but because she realises the stupidity of her actions and the impact it might have on other innocent parties.
Edited by b308 on 16/11/2009 at 18:44
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I think the barrier should be in front of the train not the cars,i mean their already late being
on a train in the uk,so another few minutes won't hurt.
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Thats not really funny. So 1000 people on a train can wait for sake of a couple of drivers? The main point is have you seen how long trains take to stop at 120mph its more like miles its measured than than feet. I don't think people realise just how dangerous trains can be due to their lack of stopping power.
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I don't think people realise just how dangerous trains can be due to their lack of stopping power.
>>>>>
>>>>>> its a dammed good point
i was down in minehead a few years ago where the steam train passes over the road near billy butlins and the gates were shut to traffic but a little boy ran out of his parents hands and nearly ran under the train to get nearer,there was nothing anyone could do but the boy stopped at the side of the train and its massive wheels,im a train lover but you never really get the feel for the largeness of these beasts till you look up at it in awe as it rasps air steam and smoke
(wow i felt like oilrag then :-0 )
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I was in Weymouth many years ago when the trains still used to run (crawl) from the station to the pierhead.
Sitting in a car looking up at all that metal, wow!
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""Russian roulette, make sure you have a valid gun licence.""
Russian roulette is usually played with pistols as such there will be no such thing as a "Valid gun licence" In the UK at any rate.
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Train versus bus............no contest
tinyurl.com/ykp5ly3
Ted
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I love the way the kid in the orange t-shirt is just walking by as if nothing has happened...
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I think the fine for a motorist is usually £120 and for pedestrians £50, i do not think you get points
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There is a perception of these barrier things that they take FAR too long and DELIBERATELY hold up us motorists ("supreme beings" in the natural order of things, as some would have it). There is also an element of peer pressure (no one wants to be the first to stop, I can't see the train yet, are you sure?) and pedestrians are as stupid as drivers in this respect (I used to see pedestrians dicing with death daily when I lived near Poole station, oh the inconvenience of using the footbridge instead....)
I think 3 points and a fine could be called "getting off lightly"; with any luck, word of mouth news of this "near miss" will spread and have the desired effect "pour encourager les autres". Just be thankful BTP don't have dog handlers or a firearms unit - YET!
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A few year ago a work colleague was caught speeding in an HM Dockyard by the Ministry of Defence Police he was summoned under a bye law pleaded guilty and was fined but no points. Perhaps a transport police bye law applies in this case and maybe the same rules apply. Suggest get legal advice.
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My work schedule involves me with a level crossing on a main road right thru a small market town. The barriers come down about 3 mintes before a train arrives but I imagine this is so that there is time to warn/stop a train if a vehicle manges to stall or crash on the actual crossing. They go up PDQ when the train has passed.
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Thats how our local crossing works, I can wait a few minutes, you are dead forever.
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Acknowledging that the OP is as appalled as most of us, I'm almost speechless.
It's very bad practice - not least because drivers tend to follow each other - I bet there have been plenty who've just missed the barrier, without which there would have been mangled wreckage instead.
You can bet I'd stop for these lights, 'peer pressure' wouldn't even register. Scary things, trains.
I think getting off the fine would be the last thing on my mind - I'd pay up and be thankful.
Edited by Manatee on 17/11/2009 at 08:48
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Clause 50: Failure to comply with traffic lights at level crossings
Clause 50 makes special provision for higher penalties where an offence under section 36 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 of failing to comply with traffic signs is committed with respect to any traffic sign indicating that traffic is not to proceed over a level crossing. It raises the penalty on summary conviction to up to six months imprisonment, a level 5 fine (£5,000) or both and raises the penalty point endorsement to six points.
From a little Googling - doubt whether its going to be a fixer - oh dear.
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Hello everyone again, the OP here. I posted this originally as I was totally stunned by my wife's actions. It is most unlike her, and probably she went because others were going. I know and you all know that is no excuse. She is most contrite and realises the stupidity of her actions. The comment about everyone has been doing it was hers, and is an indication of how easily we all fall into the trap of doing what others do, especially on a regular route. Again, it is no excuse, and I would guess that such thinking is actually behind the cause of many accidents.
Thank you for all your comments, and sorry to those who got wound up, but I quite understand as I was livid!
I am a regular reader here but only an irregular poster, but I will await developments and let you know how she is penalised.
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Hello everyone again the OP here. I posted this originally as I was totally stunned by my wife's actions.
Thanks for being so tolerant of our flak, don't give your good lady too much grief. A read of this thread may be all she needs.
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Pug:- Does this clause include Bridges for example. Lets say a bridge over a river. The amber comes on then the red wig wags start to flash. Paulvm mentions that cars regulary pass through the red light before the barrier comes down. So does clause 50 include bridges. It is illegal to pass any red traffic signal.
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level 5 fine (£5 000) or both and raises the penalty point endorsement to six points.
Oh blimey - Its a stiff one. I think the missus might need to get some legal advice,.
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It will be interesting to see how this is dealt with. It isn't 'just' a case of danger for the offender and a traumatised train driver - vehicles on railway lines have had terrible consequences for those on trains as well, as in the Selby train crash which seemed to mark a change in the authorities' attitude to drivers' responsibilities.
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as in the Selby train crash which seemed to mark a change in the authorities' attitude to drivers' responsibilities.
...although that particular crash wasn't on a crossing.
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and he fell asleep at the wheel
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...and he fell asleep at the wheel....
Yes, and I was there when he told a jury it didn't matter he'd been up all night on the internet because he could function normally without sleep.
I don't think the conceited fool recognised the irony.
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If memory serves me right there was a lengthy debate on here about the Selby crash - I'll try an dig it out an bump it across from the archives to avoid debate in here as the original reason for posting will just disappear in the clutter.
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""Russian roulette make sure you have a valid gun licence."" Russian roulette is usually played with pistols as such there will be no such thing as a "Valid gun licence" In the UK at any rate.
Sorry, as usual my heavy sarcasm gets a literal response.
I was attempting to deride the concern for mere regulations, fines and licence points, when the main object appeared to be experiencing the thrill of being nearly killed.
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I was attempting to deride the concern for mere regulations fines and licence points
Straying a little and at the risk of encountering the wrath of back-roomers, this attitude appears to me to be prevalent for other motoring offences like (for instance) double yellow lines, speeding and speed cameras in particular.
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appears to me to be prevalent for other motoring offences like (for instance) double >>yellow lines speeding and speed cameras in particular.
double yellow lines offences won't kill anyone....and neither will moderate speeding, depending on the circumstances
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...It raises the penalty on summary conviction to up to six months imprisonment, a level 5 fine (£5,000) or both and raises the penalty point endorsement to six points...
That's a stiffer penalty than careless driving and therfore raises the stakes quite a bit.
While it's unlikely the OP will end up having to do his own washing for six months, the mere mention of prison for Mrs OP puts this into 'seek legal advice' territory.
And if she is offered a fixed penalty and/or points, snatch their hand off.
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Ok its true there is usually some delay between lights on barrier down and train apperance but one day there might not be.
A train can appear very quickly travelling at 125mph, if i've worked it out correctly, that's going 250 yards in 1 second.
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A train can appear very quickly travelling at 125mph if i've worked it out correctly that's going 250 yards in 1 second.
I make it just over 61 yards per second but still to fast to race with
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.... if I've worked it out correctly....
125mph is fast but only 61 yards per second..... but I'm still staying well clear!
Edit. Snap
Edited by old crocks on 17/11/2009 at 11:55
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Irrespective of feet per sec the train is travelling, one can always get across.
You get it from the Undertaker......
dvd
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I can't get upset about people jumping level crossing barrier warning lights. I wouldn't do it myself unless I could see a long way down the track in both directions. And obviously if rumbled they have to pay their NIPs.
I take b308's point about the trauma caused to drivers by suicides under their trains, whether deliberate or accidental. But it seems to me eccentric, to put it mildly, to suggest that this is the reason why we shouldn't get run over by trains. I can think of a much more pressing one.
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I'm not sure if it's still there, but the Highway Code used to include the advice:
"Always 'give way' to trains"
Sounds a good idea to me :-)
Edited by OldSock on 17/11/2009 at 16:28
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I take b308's point about the trauma caused to drivers by suicides under their trains whether deliberate or accidental. But it seems to me eccentric to put it mildly to suggest that this is the reason *why we shouldn't get run over by trains*
Its a reason not to jump the lights/barrier, people only tend to think of themselves when running a red light/barrier, not the consequenses to others, I was just pointing out the wider reasons why its a bad idea... the effect even a "near miss" can have on the innocent party (the train driver in this case). Hopefully people will think about the wider repercussions of their actions.
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Hopefully people will think about the wider repercussions of their actions.
I just don't understand this b308. I don't want engine drivers to be traumatised or even upset. But when I compare that wish to my wish not to be killed or maimed by a train, it becomes very unimportant indeed. First things first comrade.
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Thats my job having to go out and rescue a train that has broken down it's not very pleasant when it's a level crossing which some numpty just thought they would beat the train, it won't stop like your car the poor driver takes the throttle off and brake into emergency and blasts the horn & sits there helpless cos he/she knows the ending!
Don't take the risk Network rail have spent some cash on advertising the fact level crossings will kill & folk will try to walk even run across cctv shows this you trip slip it's got you your dead then i go underneath and repair the train that your body has ripped off a air pipe i repair that so we can get the brakes off just like a truck.
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I always get a frisson of apprehension when I drive over a crossing on green...just in case the electrics have failed or someone, somewhere has cocked up. I certainly never cross on flashing reds...I ain't got the bottle !
My paramedic daughter does the bit before Bigtee does his.
One guy chained himself to the rails and threw the key down the embankment.......no last chance there !
One poor driver had a lot of time off after encountering a ' jumper '..
recovered, back at work only a week or so, someone else jumped out of the lineside bushes in front of him......end of career !
Ted
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I always get a frisson of apprehension when I drive over a crossing on green...
Me too. Last summer, with the window open, as I drove across a crossing I heard a train approaching at full speed. The heart missed quite a few beats before I realised the road then went under a bridge on another railway line!
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>> I always get a frisson of apprehension when I drive over a crossing on green... Me too.
Just a bit of advice, if your car does conk out on the crossing, don't stay in it, GET OUT and run off the crossing... then if there's time use the phone alongside the crossing to speak to the signalman who will stop the trains... And don't go anywhere near it until you've been told by a member of rail staff that its safe to do so...
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I have a degree of paranoia when approaching a rail crossing. I always make sure that there is no vehicle in front of me, that the crossing (and exit) is clear of obstruction, and that I have enough speed and momentum to carry me over the crossing in the event of an ignition/fuel engine failure.
However about 2 years ago in France I stopped at a a half barrier crossing with lights, as the barriers came down. I was quite excited, the line in question serves a quarry, and in 10 years of living in the area I had never seen the one train each week that served a local quarry. in the ensuing 10 minutes, as I made a couple of phone calls, I was overtaken by about 10 locals.
My patience finally expired, knowing that the train barely travels at walking pace, although the momentum must be huge, and that visibilty is in excess of 200m in both directions, took a last good look, and at the highest speed possible from a standing start, went thro the crossing. I still have never seen the train, and the quarry has now resorted to using road transport.
My initial reaction to the original post is the same a the majority of posters on here, but tempered with the knowledge that I had broken the rules at one point in th past. If you had asked me the question 3 years ago I would have categorically stated that I would never do it!
Edited by pmh3 on 17/11/2009 at 18:26
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.... if I've worked it out correctly.... 125mph is fast but only 61 yards per second..... but I'm still staying well clear!
And it takes even a modern train a mile to stop as well from that speed... the flip side of low rolling resistance of steel wheels on steel rail...
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Waiting for a train at Feltham station going to London last week, I watched as the barriers came down for my train approaching. Couple of cars shot across the permanent way even with the lights flashing. Madness.
There was enough warning for people to clear before the barriers came down yet, one barrier was down as the other one was on the way down and I saw a pedestrian dart across just missing her nut. Too lazy to go over the foot bridge.
As well as drivers, can the BTP do pedestrians as well? They're also a menace. Surely as they are crossing railway property they must come under the BTPs jurisdiction.
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As well as drivers can the BTP do pedestrians as well?
Yes they can, I think that they did that guy who lost his shoe not so long ago - the vid was on youtube I think, the train knocked it off, it was that close!!
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i was down barrow on humber a few years back and an abandoned line crossed the road,i stopped on it just for a laugh and the wife freaked out expecting us to meet our mortal coils
i thought it was funny because it was 100% safe
but have never will never and wont cross such a junction with the lights on and woe betide any car driver sat at the side of me who ever ever tried to while im sat next to them
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At the end of the sixties, in a small town in southern Italy, I found myself stuck on a level crossing in the middle of an afternoon traffic jam.
After a while bells started to ring and lights to flash, and a train appeared moving slowly towards the level crossing, also ringing a bell. But the traffic jam sat there unmoving. No one else seemed bothered, but I became very hot under the collar, broke ranks and got smartly off the level crossing by zigzagging between the two stationary lines of traffic. As I did so the rest of the traffic broke into a chorus of derisive, disapproving horn-tooting.
It's not good being out of your head on drugs and seriously paranoid in the middle of an Italian summer traffic jam.
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That's Italy (not meant in a derogatory way !)
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I recall there were rail crossings in rural areas in Germany with just a big 'X' sign and flashing lights. They didn't change when a train was coming, three times a day. It was Stop - Look and Listen. I have no idea what the accident stats were but probably very low. German pedestrians will stand at a X-ing in a town centre at 2am and not go against a red. I am only obeying orders etc!
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Some folks really do push their luck:-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rDFMjlUP0Q
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The fatal rail accident that did involve a car on a crossing was at Ufton Nervet on the Berks and Hants line. Suicide rather than stupidity with the barriers but that made no difference to the placing of the car. Like at Selby the wreck of the car derailed one bogie on the train and sidings further down the line finished the job.
The further bit of the jigsaw, a trin on the opposing line was averted but there were still multiple fatalities even though the carriages were the incredibly tough BR mk3s.
Edited by Bromptonaut on 17/11/2009 at 21:35
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The reason for the delay in the train arriving after the barriers have come down is simple. The railway network is divided into 'sections'. I cannot remember how long they are - 2 miles rings a bell, so when a train enters the section that has the crossing in the barriers automatically came down. This will happen even if the train then subsequently stops at a signal for 10 minutes. You will then wait for that 10 minutes.
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I think that it varies dependant on the crossing involved, the linespeed, location of any platforms, signals, etc. can all make a difference...
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This will happen even if the train then subsequently stops at a signal for 10 minutes. You will then wait for that 10 minutes.
I think that's what happens at Wokingham station near me. There's a crossing just past the end of the platform, so the barrier comes down when the train approaches from the other end, and stays down while the train is stopped at the platform. I guess it doesn't know whether the train is going to stop or not.
tinyurl.com/yjtn6o6
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Focus,
I think you mean that the signalling does not know the timetable, which is probably right. However there is also the possibility of the train over running the platform (usually on a greasy rail) or much more rarely of the dirver missing a stop. There may also be a train in the opposite direction.
There used to be a crossing near here where Banbury Lane crosses the main line out of Euston. Linespeed then was 110mph which meant a very long wait if the trian was slowed - 20mins not uncommmon. Mercifully it's now been replaced by a bridge.
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Incase anyone is in any doubt of the energy in a train, the one in this clip was probably travelling at 35-40mph ----- What HGV ?
(the near camera angle is simply amazing).
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7925009.stm
Edit: probably the most impressive feat is the train driver jumping out at around 0:12 and 0:21 and staying on his feet!
Edited by Lygonos on 19/11/2009 at 19:58
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They look like wagons to me, rather than a loco, I suspect they were being shunted and the guy jumping would be the shunter rather than the driver. Shame the CCTV speeds things up so much though.
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As others have rightly pointed out, trains cannot stop like road vehicles can. It's nothing to do with poor brakes of course, merely the result of having steel wheels running on steel rails, and all the physics involved in that which I will not profess to explain but I'm sure someone with Number Cruncher's skills can.
The other thing to consider is that trains cannot swerve. ;-)
Many years ago I was heavily involved in railway preservation; the steam train on which I was travelling ran over a Golden Retriever which was running loose on the line. The dog ended up in three large lumps, which we gathered up in a bin bag. Train was only doing about 15 mph but of course had no chance of stopping.
The railway's official photographer happened to be on the train, took pictures of the rather grisly results; said pics were then shown to any kids who we happened to catch messing about on the tracks, till one of their parents complained that we'd "traumatised" her little darling!
If anyone doubts the lethal effects of being hit by a train, they should consider the statistics of suicides. Fewer survive a train impact that those who shoot themselves.
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If anyone doubts the lethal effects of being hit by a train they should consider the statistics of suicides. Fewer survive a train impact that those who shoot >>themselves.
Two and a half hours late home last night due to a "person under" in the Wembley/Harrow area. The stat above kind of puts my tummy rumbles and general moans into perpective.
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someone with Number Cruncher's skills
I'll have a go ;-)
An HST has two engine units at 70 tonnes each plus ?5 passenger carriages at 28 tonnes each (source: Wikipedia), total weight of train = 280 tonnes.
Typical car weight = 1.4 tonnes.
Actually at that point I'll leave it to NC haha, I'm not that confident of my calculation skills when it comes to dissipation of kinetic energy in different sized objects. Suffice to say, the train will make a bigger mess, and by more orders of magnitude than you think.
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If anyone doubts the lethal effects of being hit by a train, they should consider the statistics of suicides. Fewer survive a train impact that those who shoot themselves
snip is that what we want to read on here regardless of time of year :-) NO
Edited by rtj70 on 19/11/2009 at 23:50
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As a child, walking with my father beside a working narrow-gauge steam railway, I had the great pleasure of placing a couple of copper coins on the line as a train slowly puffed into view. When it had passed we had to look quite hard for the coins. They were flattened and enlarged of course, slightly curved too, and had been fired violently down into the ballast under the rails. Best of all, they were extremely hot, too hot to touch.
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We used to do that as well !
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And me... with the real steamers when BR used to run them!
BTW talking about narrow gauge trains, there's a series of photos of the Welshpool's "meeting" with a Land Rover, even though its a lot smaller than a standard gauge loco, the railway engine still came out on top...
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Gosh - it seems that every little boy was shoving pennies under steam train wheels 40 to 50 years ago - I did it as well .
My best friends father was the signalman at the local level crossing and we used to help him with the signals and turning the big wheel to operate the level crossing gates - even on occasion we were allowed to give the bell signals for approaching trains to the next box down the line , different signals for passenger and goods trains , slow and fast as I recall.
Motring connection - The signalman used to be able to see approaching cars for miles and would close the gates if he saw the car coming of someone he did not like such as the local high and mighty 'lady of the manor' even if no train was due......
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Doesn't he know that you are supposed to blow all the candles out with one breath?
That's why he got knocked down by a lorry - last birthday he took four puffs to blow out his candles - guaranteed one year's bad luck!
Edit. That should have been attached to the BBC link.
Edited by drbe on 20/11/2009 at 09:35
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