I'm interested in views on the owenership of the smaller 7 seaters on the market at the moment.
Both the Opel Zafira and Volkswagen Touran have reasonable new car offers on them at the moment, undercutting the likes of renault / citroen / ford / peugeot / etc and making them the cheapest 'proper' 7 seater cars on the market.
I just wondered what they were like for daily familly use, reliability, servicing, etc. Expecting to do around 15k miles per annum and own the car for 5 years.
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We've had a 2006 Zafira 2.2 auto for 2.5 years now. We've done 43k miles in that time, on top of the 10k it came with.
It's been brilliant family transport. We use it purely in 5 seat mode, taking advantage of that huge boot at the back in that configuration.
We've took it on several family holidays and it always performs brilliantly. Very few problems with it.
Likes:
Huge boot in 5 seat mode
Average 30mpg, not bad for a big car with a 2.2 petrol engine and 4 speed autobox
High seating position makes it easy to slide in and out of the car, good on the back!
Big door apertures make it easy to strap baby seats and small kids in
Relatively short and narrow vehicle considering the interior space. Easier to park than a large estate car.
Mostly good reliability, only small issues
Long 20k service interval. Although I do an interim oil and filter change between that.
Reasonably refined and relaxing enough on long journeys.
Pretty good on fast B-roads for a big tall family shifter.
Projector style headlamps give good beam for standard halogen bulbs.
Kids give it a big thumbs up for the commanding views from the back seats.
Dislikes:
Autobox has only 4 speeds, feels like 1 short sometimes
Thick A-pillar can block view dangerously
Not enough cup holders or general storage, seriously
Aircraft style handbrake is hard work to release
Pedal angle is not ideal, although not so much of an issue on this automatic version
Kit level is not that great, despite being the (then) top-of-the-range Design, with most options boxes ticked.
Low towing limit and roof box load limit.
Climate control is only single zone. OK, I'm being fussy now!
Tyres are quite expensive with the 17" rims.
We'd buy another.
Edit: however, as a 7 seater it's not so hot. Access to the rear seats is poor, and boot space with all 7 seats in use is small. The rear most seats are too close to the rear of the car for my liking too.
Edited by TheOilBurner on 02/11/2009 at 14:26
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We have had two Tourans. A 1.9TDi manual (S spec), 04 plate purchased brand new, followed by a replacement 2.0TDi DSG (SE spec), again purchased brand new last November. We still have the latter.
We traded in the old one at just over 50k miles, as it had started to develop faults which were proving expensive to fix, such as a clonk from the front suspension which cost several hundred pounds to put right. I also was a bit choked paying over 400 quid when it was time to do the cambelt. It was starting to spend a bit more time off the road than we were comfortable with, as we needed it every day for the school runs and commuting. Routine servicing at the main dealer was quite expensive, and I'm a bit circumspect about giving PD engines to indies to service due to the need for the correct oil spec in these engines.
The new one with the more powerful (140ps) engine and the DSG box is a better car, however I still don't much care for its ride, we find it a bit too bouncy and I'm blaming it at least in part for my daughter's continuing car sickness, which puts us off doing longer trips to be frank. Also, I'm increasingly frustrated with the issue of slight "lag" when pulling away from junctions which the DSG box seems to cause. I do, however, like the car's punch on the motorways. But seeing as it's used mostly around town, the issue is a bit trying.
Servicing costs aren't an issue with the new one (yet) as we got a three year servicing package thrown in for free on top of the discount we got from list when we bought it, so my plan is to keep the car for another two years until we've used up the free servicing, then I want to trade it in for a petrol engined automatic Mazda 5. I'm especially looking forward to having sliding rear doors and being free of the characteristics of the diesel/DSG combination in town driving. I'd consider a 1.4TSi petrol Touran if it weren't for the ride, and the potential for costly after warranty faults with the car, specifically the gearbox. I see the Mazda 5 petrol as far better long tem bet and would look to keep one of those for at least 6 years. And with the 2.0 petrol unit there ain?t a cambelt to worry about??..
Edited by Alanovich on 02/11/2009 at 14:41
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And with the 2.0 petrol unit there ain?t a cambelt to worry about??..
Chain cam on our Zafira. Sadly, it's a little noisy, so it makes me nervous. I'd be happier with a cambelt equipped car myself! :)
Funny how the ride on the Touran doesn't sound so great. The Zafira is the polar opposite, almost too hard at times. Not had any problems with travel sickness...yet...
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Yes, the Touran handles beautifully, but the ride ain't great. Wrong way round for a people carrier, surely.
It sits on our driveway next to my Mazda 6, and here's the acid test: when I need to pop out on my own, I nearly always grab the Mazda keys, even though the diesel in the Touran is paid for by my wife's company, and the petrol in the Mazda is paid for out of my own pocket.
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Clonks from the front suspension on VAG cars, 80% of the time, is due to a worn arb drop link. Very common. Should cost between £35(indy) - £60(dealer) to fix. Its easy to diy (<30 mins, decent socket set,spanners and some muscle reqd) and the part costs £12(after market) to around £25(dealer OEM). Note OEM parts usually last up to 3 times longer than aftermarket parts. Expect to change every 20k(aftermarket) to 60k (OEM).
If you're worried about the wrong oil being used, just buy the oil and give it the indy/dealer with instructions to use. You will probably end up with the bill being discounted more than you paid for the oil.
Edited by brum on 02/11/2009 at 19:21
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Needed 6 seats and a little luggage space for a weekend away, and as both the CRV and Forester have 5 seats decided to hire. Got a 'mini-MPV' class car from Enterprise online for a discounted rate of approx £40/day ('Large MPV' eg. Galaxy was £80-odd per day).
Although the blurb states "Zafira/SMax or similar" for the mini-MPV, the actual car was a Kia Carens GS 2.0TD.
6-up (4 adults, forward facing child seat, and a rear facing seat on Isofix base) there was room to fit in 3 or 4 small cases/backpacks and a bunch of other bags, as well as just managing a single-seat Maclaren buggy behind the rear row of seats.
6-speed manual box was easy to stir, light pedals and plenty of torque from the 140PS engine from around 1500rpm. Cruised easily at 80mph, handled very wet winding roads in Perthshire with zero drama. 45-ish mpg fully loaded with a good mix of motorway, hilly B-roads and 30mph in 3rd gear for several miles over country roads.
Downsides? It has a foot-operated parking brake that works fine, but is a pain for hillstarts as you need to select neutral so you can take the clutch foot off to apply the brake - might be why CBCB suggests clutch/DMF probs for taxicabbers. Oh, and the indicator/wiper stalks remain in the pre-1980s British Leyland positions!
If I needed 6 seats I would personally look at a Honda FRV auto (Mrs prefers autobox) so I would still have a good sized/shape boot for day-to-day clutter, or possibly an Volvo XC90 Active diesel auto as they are currently £22k from www.drivethedeal.com and tick all the boxes for safe, capacious family transport.
The Carens? Very impressed, well put together. As a 5-seat estate car with the ability to take an occasional 6th/7th person? Fits the bill. Not expensive to buy, 5 year warranty (probably wouldn't cover clutch, but maybe DMF? - I'd check that before buying and maybe you'd also look at the 4-spd slushbox that seems to get close to 40mpg but avoids the DMF worries).
Lygonos rating: 4/5.
Edited by Lygonos on 02/11/2009 at 14:30
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Thank you everybody for some really helpful and considered opinions! I shall certainly take a look at the Kia - and must admit I'd been leaning towards an auto box (not necessarily for DMF issues - but it's certainly worth considering).
I do hear a lot about DMFs being a problem - what are people's experiences? Have DMFs improved over the years, or are they still a ticking timebomb in manual diesels? Are there any manual diesels without them?
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We have had a Citroën C4 Grand Picasso 1.6HDi EGS Tendance (VTR+ in the UK) since April 2009.
Bought as the family car for my wife, we occasionally need seven seats though the main use of the car is as a five seater + big boot. My wife wanted something raised for lifting the nippers, three and one, in and out of their car seats as she has back problems and the sloping roof of the S60 was making it worse.
The interior space is very good for the size of car and, with the EGS option, no centre console filling the middle of the car.
Seats are very comfortable for long journeys, the front two being captains chairs.
The car we test drove was the 2.0HDi with the EGS gearbox. This car was quite jerky on up changes, our 1.6HDi is much smoother, due to less torque, though not lightening quick but then this is a people carrier not a hot hatch. Adjust your driving and it works fine. The downside of the smaller engine is fuel economy, averaging just over 37mpg. We opted for the smaller engine as this is our first locally registered car so insurance was also a consideration for us.
To be fair the car doesn't get many long runs, couple of times per year it gets to stretch its legs from Germany to Scotland but the rest of the time is shortish local journeys for food shopping, music classes in the next village and now the inclement weather is here, Kindergarten runs too.
Servicing is not too bad, quoted 243? from the supplying dealer here in Germany for the first 20k kms stop but, as we are coming over to the UK, called the dealer local to where we are going, £145.
That's for oil and filter + cabin filter and the usual visuals.
In full 7 seat configuration my 16 year old abandoned the rear most seats as too cramped. He is 6' 1? and growing so can forgive him that one. I'm impressed he managed to get in there. Access is very good to the rear with the outer middle seats base flipping up and the whole seat sliding forward to give a wide aperture. The boot in this configuration is minimal, I managed to get a fold up stroller type pushchair and all our jackets in. That was the boot full.
The folding mechanism of all middle and rear seats is excellent, a pull on a single tab being enough to lift the seat out of the floor and into position. The two outermost middle row seats also recline and there is more legroom in the middle row than the front of the car. Before operating the rear most seats though, the floor must be folded up into three to form the new boot floor and give access to the seats.
The car came on standard 16? steel wheels with trims. Ride comfort is very good but the handling is best described as soft and cornering can be a little vague. Having said that, cross winds do not appear to affect it too much considering the side profile.
The car has an electronic handbrake. This may be a deal breaker for some. It's automatic, so when you switch off it applies automatically and releases with a quick dab on the accelerator to move off. If you need to apply it in stop/start traffic a quick pull on the switch in the centre of the dash is all it takes, again a quick dab on the accelerator will release it ready to go before applying the throttle as normal. Alternatively to release, you need to apply the footbrake while the gearbox is in neutral, pull on the switch then, as the release mechanism is working, select A or M to drive off. Bit of a palaver so I leave it in auto mode.
Only real negatives I have in addition to the fuel consumption are:
The left footrest is too far back so not really comfortable for motorway driving.
Manoeuvring in a tight spot with the EGS usually requires the left foot to operate the brake while the right foot operates the throttle. Not really an issue for us as the only time I need to do this is when we visit the UK putting the car in the garage but worth considering if this is part of your daily routine.
Legroom for the front passenger is not great and access to the lower glovebox can be impossible if they have long-ish legs. Probably why there are two boxes on top of the dashboard and the extra chiller box in the centre of the dash in lieu of a centre console and manual stick shift.
When driving in the dark I find it necessary to switch off the illuminated heater panels at the ends of the dashboard. They project an image into the bottom corner of the door mirror which is very distracting to me. I've tried different seating positions but the easiest solution is just to switch the illumination off ? probably why the off button is there.
Overall I can recommend the C4 GP as a family car come weekend removal/tip run van.
There have been reports of this gearbox having clutch issues after 20k miles, we have this car on a three year lease so will see if this becomes an issue.
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Thanks, that's useful. Interestingly I did hire a C4 GP earlier this year for about 10 days when I was over in the UK. Took me about 20 minutes to get out of the car park at 2am (damned electronic parking brake!!!) but once I figured it out it was absolutely fine and it never bothered me.
The only thing I didn't like about the car after about 500 miles of driving was the rear view mirror. It seemed very small and a very long way away!
The deal breaker is that the wife had an 03 Picasso from new - and had no end of problems. I don't think I'll be allowed (in fact I know I'm NOT allowed) to buy another Citroen!
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Pah ! You could have said earlier and saved me typing that lot :-)
Edited by gmac on 02/11/2009 at 18:41
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The only thing I didn't like about the car after about 500 miles of driving was the rear view mirror. It seemed very small and a very long way away!
These cars have two rear view mirrors. A normal sized one with dip button and a small one for keeping an eye on little 'uns in the back. Sounds like the normal mirror was missing.
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2006 Zafira B as my company car doing 22K miles per year. Not one fault in 42 months contract. It's been so good I opted out of the company car scheme and bought it!
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In 2000 had a Zafirra 2.0 diesel as a lease car. No problems at all (except when I put unleaded in it!). A friend of mine bought it at 3 years old from the leasing company when I left the job and they ran it for 3 more years with the clutch failing (but they go through clutches in other cars too). I bought my own Zaffy in 2003, again diesel, again no problems at all. Traded in for Espace as family was permanetly 7 and growing kids needed just a little extra.
Main problem was that access to rear seats meant sliding the middle bench seat. Sceinc etc have a tilting/sliding single seat - much lighter and easier to do. Luggage space very restricted if in 7 seat mode.
I actually found that models with sliding doors eg Mazda 5, had less access space than convential doors as the sliding door doesn't go back far enough.
Top 7 seater for me is the ESpace, but I would have a Zaffira again, but family no longer so big, so getting a Grand Scenic instead (or pug 5008 or C4, will decide soon...)
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