Bandit
Do you drive a BMW with white shirt hanging in rear window and hands free dongle in your ear?? - just interested.
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>Do you drive a BMW with white shirt hanging in rear window and hands free dongle in your ear?? - just interested.
Quality.
On the flip side - why do many such drivers feel the need to delay their exit from the motorway until the absolute last minute, diving across multiple lanes to ensure they get in front of an HGV then stand on the brakes forcing the HGV to have to emergency brake. The ripple of brake lights as everyone else has to adjust their speed then proceeds back down the motorway, but at least Mr idiot hasn't been delayed at all.
I see this kind of behaviour almost every day nowadays - truckers doing roadblocks I don't.
I suppose one day the law of averages will kick in and Mr idiot will get it wrong and remove himself from the gene pool, unfortunately involving more than just himself.
Oh and I am not a trucker, do drive a BMW but don't have either a white shirt hanging or god forbid a hands free dongle!
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Being neither an HGV driver nor a BMW driver I see both types of stupid driving on the roads. The typical BMW driver behavior is not limited to BMW drivers, but rolling road blocks is limited to HGVs.
I do not think that a blanket ban on Land 2 travel by HGVs is sensible, but some restrictions on two lane roads with upward gradients would be appreciated. It would also be sensible if HGV govenors were set to say 60mph, allowing some opportunity for better overtaking. The tachograph would soon indicate if the driver was simply overtaking or running at over the speed limit for lengths of time.
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Are these "dongle" things the ones that the Star Trek wannabes wear?
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The motorway and trunk dual carraiageway network are there not least as a goods transport network.
Although excessive lane hogging by lorries is anti social in the same way as it is by car or van drivers, these long overtakes come about because of the different characteristics of different vehicles. When a lorry driver comes up behind a slightly slower vehicle at the start of a long uphill stretch, he doesn't know whether it will run out of puff quicker of slower than his vehicle. So he tries to pass - but once passing, if he struggles to get past, if he pulls back he'll have to slow down and possibly drop a gear or two and take longer to get up the hill. Presumably he doesn't want to lose time on his journey any more than the car drivers he might be holding up while overtaking.
Anyway, we're all lane hoggers in the eyes of the tailgater just behind us. If we're keeping to 70 and they want to do 80, they think we're the problem. But if we sped up to 80, they'd probably still be tailgating because they want to do 90!
Edited by Sofa Spud on 22/10/2009 at 12:28
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Very good and valid explanation sofaspud, but if I read the OP right the two lorries were approaching a lane drop at roadworks.
Now, I'm not condoning this, so don't shoot the messenger please!
What has happened to me so many times in a lorry is when you're approaching roadworks, the nearside lane comes almost to a halt a couple of miles back, while the offside lane still moves freely.
Despite numerous signs to indicate that the offside lane is closing cars continue to go right up to the cones and always manage to get in front off a lorry because they can accelerate away quicker ( or barge, as we call it!)
The outcome is that the nearside lane eventually stops moving altogether and that's why lorry drivers do this, to give both lanes a fair chance to make progress.
Zip merging works perfectly where there are signs to advise that this should be the way to queue at roadworks, and IMHO should be used far more often.
Another point to people who advocate stopping lorries overtaking altogether, remember we're all being made aware of ( and trained in) SAFED or Safe and Fuel Efficient Driving.
In a loaded lorry that's something quite different to what it is in a car, and involves high gears whenever possible, keeping up momentum and use of constant speeds. So many firms are now paying fuel bonuses to drivers for fuel saving, due to cost of deisel, and to reduce the carbon footprint and emissions problem.
You can't have everything I'm afraid and benefits usually come as a double edged sword.
Pat
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The way I see it is that if you could get all the traffic into 2 lanes while still at motorway speeds, the problems associated with road works would be drastically reduced.
Cars changing lanes generally have little effect on overall traffic flow at 70mph. However, people pushing in at the last minute does and it only needs the car behind to touch his brakes and the well known chain starts whereby traffic half a mile back comes to halt. As traffic approaches roadworks it is generally slowing anyway so the gaps between the cars closes and the effect of "pushing in" is magnified. This problem is unfortunately self exacerbating.
I know there are other problems as well, but I do believe that if traffic was herded into 2 lanes maybe a couple of miles or more before the roadworks while traffic was still at speed, not by the use of cones but by signs, a lot of the problems would ease. There would then be cameras covering the outside lane and anyone in this lane perhaps a mile before the roadworks would be hit with a penalty. Changing lanes would also be forbidden. Yes you would have a stretch of open outside lane totally unused but I cannot see any other solution.
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As a semi-regular on the A14 ive been stuck behind these lengthly overtakes many times and while it does slow me down for a few minutes, I cant say ive ever seen any harm in it as they are just trying to get where they are going, most likely under far more pressure than I am - its not likle being stuck behind a tractor for goodness sake.
They have the right to overtake and so long as they do so legally, complaint is groundless, patience is a virtue.
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dxp55
Sorry to disappoint but no I'm not a BMW driver, nor do I have a white shirt hanging the rear window or a handsfree dongle in my ear. I do however have an MPV, a clear view through all windows and bluetooth.
I've also been a member of the IAM and RoSPA for over 17 years. How about you? Just interested.
Oilyman
In this instance there was no demonstration of last minute lane diving. This was taking place 2 miles before the point where the lane was closed off.
Sofa Spud
Quite agree with the different characteristics of different vehicles but this 2mile stretch of road is on a level.
All I'm looking for is a sensible and safe use of both lanes in the run up to this particular lane closure. A trucker who decides 2 miles back that he's going to be a rolling road block is not it. Perhaps more of the signs which instruct vehicles in lane 2 to "Merge in Turn" would calm down some of those in lane 1 who see the red mist set in when a car is pulling in and they have just spent the last 10mins plodding along at 5mph.
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there were roadworks on the A38 in Devon for quite some time (Ashburton, Newton Abbot etc).
There were some quite nasty accidents, because people drove like the OP has stated, i.e. blocking lane 2....which meant in the busy periods the tail of the queue ended up much further back than the road planners anticipated....which meant vehicles approaching a brow of the hill and bends and then finding a stationary queue.
Eventually they had to put great big signs out stating 'use both lanes'.
the only reason zip merging falls down is when the impatient barge in forcefully at the last minute.... AND.... those that are in lane 1 decide not to let lane 2 drivers in, (because they're no doubt annoyed they've gained an advantage)...i.e. it is a two way problem
if there's an empty lane, it should be used, it is more efficient...if a driver wishes to use lane 1 early because it suits them, so be it.... but they shouldn't penalise others who use the more empty lane 2, because they're perfectly entitled to. Likewise lane 2 drivers should be patient when they get to the zip merge bit.
It's not difficult.
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forgot about the "Use both Lanes" sign Westpig. Good point.
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Perhaps the truck was interpreting the "use both lanes" sign too literally :-)
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2 miles back there were no signs.
the only signs to indicate the closure were at 800yards, 600yards, 400yards and 200yards.
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bandit, I travel the road you refer to regularly and am afraid, the way you describe it, I side with the trucker.
I am usually trying to take the new junction just before it joins the A80 and it would be so better if they extended that sliproad to let you exit quicker!
Anyway, in my experience, zipping or merging only works at a decent speed , maybe 30-40+. At those speeds, you can merge without brakes needing to be applied therefore no concertina effect of braking.
If the left hand lane is already down to 20mph, and you want to go down the outside lane at 50 mph and pull in at last minute, that will cause braking and slow down lane 1 even more.
And lets be honest, thats what you are doing, nothing about Advanced Driving, you are saying your journey is more important and you are not prepared to wait like everyone else. Same as the ones on the westbound M8 at Barlinnie who use the sliproad to go down and then cut back onto the motorway at the last minute.
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On a similar rant, another pet hate of mine is those who ignore filter lanes at junctions but in a way the blame lies elsewhere.
My journey through Glasgow comes across various roads where there are 2 lanes but the right hand lane will be right turn only. So everyone that is going straight on and uses this road every day knows to join the queue on the left lane. But you will always get some who blast up the right hand lane and then pretend they have just realised it is filter and cut across. Except the same ones do it every night!
Problem being, these roads only have the arrows painted (feintly in some cases) on the tarmac so you don't know its filter lane if there is a vehicle on top of the arrow!
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For zip merging to work you need:
From 1 mile mark you have "Stay IN Lane" signs.
From the 800yard mark you need cones separating the two lanes.
At the point that the 2 lanes become 1, you have cones lined up in such a way that neither of the existing 2 lanes has automatic right of way, and you only have that one window to actually merge.
It would also take out all the uncertainty etc of when to merge in
And would keep both lanes at same speed, so no reason to change lanes etc.
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I know the new junction your talking about and yes it does only have a short offslip.
I'm surprised though you are agreeing with the trucker. Remember the queue began at J2 Gartcosh. There is a 2 mile stretch until the end of the M73. This trucker had all this space in front of him with nothing in it !!
Just to be clear, I don't want to pull in at the last minute because I know the effects this has. What I want to do is make good use of both lanes where possible and I always move into the correct lane no later than the first marker to indicate a lane closure. Therefore I'm always in at least 800yards before.
I'm not looking to run right up to the cones and barge my way in.
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If the left hand lane is already down to 20mph and you want to go down the outside lane at 50 mph and pull in at last minute that will cause braking and slow down lane 1 even more.
if lane 1 is doing 20mph and lane 2 is doing 50mph....then there are too many people in lane 1 and not enough in lane 2
for the whole road to be efficient people need to use both lanes at busier times....then be civilised at the zip bit
if the lane 1ers get all iffy about the lane 2ers gaining an advantage, then the sytem will fail....which it does regularly
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for the whole road to be efficient people need to use both lanes at busier times....then be civilised at the zip bit
I agree with you partly Westpig but at what stage do you think the zip bit should be?
At the 200 yard marker whereby the closing lane traffic is practically stationary as they can't go any further?
Or 800 yard mark whereby inside lane is already going much slower as they are slowing to let the outside lane in?
Or well in advance of the roadworks whereby the traffic may be doing 50-60 mph and if everyone did move over during that , where there are bigger distances of seaparation, there would be less bunching, less slowing, and traffic would continue to move at pace.
But, that lasty scenario is what does actually happen. People know the roadworks are there or see the early signs and immediately move over when traffic is still flowing. The only reason to make that lane then slow down is the fact that people feel that they should use the empty lane and cut in later, making the traffic slow to accomodate them.
As I said before, a big part of the problem is "you are moving into my lane". If neither of these lanes had priority at the cones then this would be different and this is very easily achievable through clever use of cones.
Of course, the other big part of the problem is the British attitude, road rage etc etc
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I agree with you partly Westpig but at what stage do you think the zip bit should be?
At the end, where the road works and cones are.
That's what the road planners planned. They didn't plan on people doing all that 800 yards up the road...so that maybe the locals all get used to doing it early, but out of towners don't know that....or the patient book early and the impatient keep going. If everyone did it at the same place there wouldn't be so much of an issue.
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Don't want to hijack thread but it must be a bad day for ' truck incidents'...coming west over the High Peak this afto with SWMBO in the Vitara..... Single carriaeway. 50mph limit, rain, clouds down a bit. Became aware that an artic had come up close behind...too close, couldn't
see the bottom of his screen in my mirror. Followed me miles, dropping back on the hills but back up my exhaust round 3 really bad, 15 to 20 mph sets of downhill bends.
Lost him on a long uphill but he caught me at a roundabout and dogged me again until we hit a 2 lane dual carriageway. I stayed in the outside as that was the straight across lane at the next roundabout. He overtook me in the left turn lane, tailgating a car in that lane.
He went straight across, as I did, and got stuck behind slower traffic. I overtook, now 70 limit, and he gave SWMBO a load of ' finger verbals '. Never saw him again.
Company name all over his truck...a large transport company.
I was incenced, SWMBO had been really distressed so I flirted off an EMail when I got home.
We'll see if I get any comeback....I doubt it !
There are plenty of good truckers out there.......this sort give them a bad name.
Ted
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I absolutely agree with you ted, they do.
But BobbyG
>>>For zip merging to work you need:<<<
All it needs is a bit of consideration for other road users and a return to the good old days when all road users were cosidered to be equal.
Something sadly seen these days because everyone thinks their journey is more important than anyone else's.
After nearly 30 years of lorry driving I have suddenly become a car user and I am amazed at how well I am treated, how considerate other car users are to me and the amount of professional car drivers there are about.
Sadly as a lorry driver, this rarely happened and it was only the professional car drivers who were happy to allow me to pull out of a side road or to overtake. ( Yes I know they were all backroomers and I thank you all!)
I think we ALL need to clean up our act a bit since we all have something in common, we love driving.
Incidentally the lorry drivers compulsory 35 hours of training they have now got to have over 5 years, in a classroom and in many cases at their own cost ( approx £500+ ) may help to address these problems.
I am writing my own course tailored to 'customer service from a cab and the way lorry drivers 'present' themselves to other road users.'
I just hope that JAUPT will approve it after all the work going into it.
Pat
Edited by pda on 22/10/2009 at 18:09
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Will you be delivering the new driver CPC?
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From what little I've seen of driver CPC, I can't feel anything other than cynicism for the process. It seems to me to be a slightly artificial qualification which adds another hurdle to gaining employment as a driver. Protectionism is probably a good way to describe it - another door opens for future industrial action!
Going further, I think it places the burden in the wrong place - it should be the company's responsibility to ensure that its staff are appropriately trained in the use of the comany's equipment, and in handling and securing the loads carried by those trucks, and complying with all applicable legislation. Placing this burden on the truck driver is rather unfair.
Having said all of this, which, to be clear, is directed against the driver CPC as a concept, not against you Pat!, I suspect it's a shrewd move on your part getting into this line of work, and I wish you every success in your new work.
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Thank you NC:)
I actually totally agree with you and feel strongly that a lot of people are setting themselves up with no experience to teach something they have only been taught in a classroom. I wouldn't want that situation and I hope to gain a modicum of respect for the fact that I have actually done the job for almost 30 yrs.
I'm trying to write my own courses because I feel they need to be targetted to the problem areas and not as some seem to think, 7 hrs per year of 'token training'
I have taken a C&G course in training and presenting skills and finally bought all the equipment I need and I can still do it for less than £500 and make a living!
But yes, in my 'advanced' years it should prove easier than the lorry driving I love so much!
Pat
Edited by pda on 22/10/2009 at 18:40
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.Incidentally the lorry drivers compulsory 35 hours of training they have now got to have over 5 years in a classroom and in many cases at their own cost ( approx £500+ ) may help to address these problems.
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Only if said training includes the injunction NOT to overtake unless you are capable of going at least 2mph faster than the vehicle in front. Goodness knows how many thousands of hours of journey time are wasted and hours of discontent engendered by the selfish habit of taking over two miles to overtake the lorry in front. At least on the A14 there are many stretches confining HGVs to the inner lane where they belong. And don't reply with the twaddle about speed limiters and cruise controls. If you're being overtaken just switch it off for a few seconds. You'll lose merely a few seconds on your three hour journey. With our pathetically inadequate roads we need to help each other as much as possible, not be bloodyminded.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 24/10/2009 at 22:05
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