Hi guys
Wondered if you can help regarding a problematic vehicle.
I recently sold an 8 year old car in august that had only covered 36k miles with a full service record. I sell all of my cars with what I consider to be a decent quality warranty through a third party company and made sure this vehicle was no exception.
Basically im recently established and started trading cars having worked for dealers in the past. I obviously want repeat customers as my aim is to make this a full time business, and am in no way looking to make a 'fast buck' etc. and so far its been going really well.
Basically, 3 weeks on the buyer was having gearbox problems and it was diagnosed as needing a new gearbox by his local dealership. He got a 2nd opinion and they said it could be the torque converter and couldnt find a local dealer to carry out the work.
I obviously felt quite bad about the situation and paid to have the car recovered to me (4 hours away) where it could be repaired by a local dealer I use who are excellent. He was happy with this and the garage recovered the car.
Anyway, the warranty cover is for £2k and £50 an hour labour rate. Under the listed parts the gearbox is covered however they have been very slow to respond in terms of inspection.
Its now 19 days since the car was recovered and they have just inspected the vehicle today (after 3 cancelled appointments) and confirmed that work can be started. It is probably going to be another week before its fixed and obviously the gentleman has been very anxious to get the car back.
Today however I received a letter stating that he wants to reject the vehicle under the sale of goods act and that I am in breach of contract by not supplying him a repair date. I can fully understand his argument however I have done everything by the book and have not been obstructive in any way. Ultimately, I paid for a decent quality warranty and unfortunately they have been holding things up.
By my understanding, provided I have agreed to have the work completed and supplied a warranty I do not have the obligation to refund him his money. He is also trying to claim for additional money for new rear tyres (that were apparantly badly worn when he bought the car) and the road tax on the vehicle for a year.
Just wondered if someone could shed some light on the situation. Its cost me a lot of cash up till now anyway (car was recovered to my dealer by transporter and he lives 3 hours away) plus investigatory time etc. The garage I use would give me full support about the warranty company and confirm the work is to be completed. They have spoken to him several times etc.
Something else he is saying is that the fault was there when he bought the car (which wasnt the case to our knowledge - there was a slight 'tappety noise' coming from the engine which we thought was a pulley - and as the engine needs to be removed anyway we agreed to get this put right for him in addition to the gearbox) and that yesterday he was informed by the inspector that the gearbox that has gone wrong is actually reconditioned so theres no way the car could have covered 35k miles. In my eyes, it is possible for a car of this mileage to get through 2 gearboxes although very unlucky - however this model is well known for being unreliable. Also, my order forms do state that the mileage shown on the car must be regarded as not being genuine so I think im covered...however given the service history, hpi etc. I dont think its been clocked for one moment.
Any advice would be really appreciated - I just want to do whats right but also protect my interests because im newly established and this could end up costing me a lot of money when it doesnt need to.
Thank you in advance!
{corrected typo in header}
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 01/10/2009 at 02:05
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Sounds like the OP has lost confidence in the Vehicle and simply wants to get out of the deal. I suspect the reason for this is he no longer believes the car has done only 35K miles.
You have to admit the fact is has a recon auto gearbox in at 35K miles is a bit suspicious. You also said it had a full service history, if so, who put that box (I doubt a main dealer) in and when? If the box was low mileage and done under warranty they would have probably repaired it or put a new box in.
Most second hand car sales have the clause about the mileage not being guaranteed genuine, but you must know how easy it is to clock a car and fake up a service history, you would not be the first person to be had like this! Besides, relying on such a cause is IMO a very bad way of working as some second hand car dealers hide behind those words..
At 35K miles an 8 year old car is going to feel as tight as a 3 year old car that has covered the same mileage, it won't be tappity, it will run well and it's doubtful it would need a new auto box. Everything about the car is going to feel good. I have a 35K mile nearly 8 year old Honda Civic and it's quite obvious it has only done that mileage in the way it drives. it's not tappity, no strange noises and no problems.
Unfortunately I suspect the car you have could be one of those too good to be true deals...it happens. Ask a good mechanic at your repairing garage if they think it might have been clocked. if they think it has, give the person back his money (don't pay for tires and Tax that's his problem) and send it off to auction......treat it as a learning experience. At least as an 8 year old car and an unreliable model, you won't be out too much cash, much of which you will recoup at action.
I suspect there's far more clocked cars on the market than people realise and you have to be ultra careful, you cannot simply rely on paperwork or HPI. I know I sound unsympathetic, but this is your business and you want to get it right.
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As mentioned in anothe rthread this week, if you're going into business selling people stuff you need to know SOGA inside out, so at least you know where you stand legally. Summary here:-
www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/consumers/fact-sheets/pag...l
Seems to me, as a consumer, that it is up to the seller to decide whether the goods are repaired or refunded if the buyer has received some benefit from them, as has obviously happened here.
EDIT: this link from the same page is one you should definately be aware of:-
www.berr.gov.uk/files/file25486.pdf
Edited by SpamCan61 {P} on 01/10/2009 at 09:41
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If i sold this car i would give the guy his money back before it gets messy
look at it this way,you sold it once for x pounds so repair it and ask the same again,i know that sounds impossible but its true,im surprised a warranty company would pay for a box anyway on such an old car,this is probably why its not happening,i think you will be standing this cost yourself at the end of the day or shoot it back in the block
welcome to the world of washing machines with wheels by the way
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As you're in business, you should also establish some sort of SLA (Service Level Agreement) with the warranty company. Waiting 19 days for them to inspect the car is clearly unacceptable and is often going to put you in some difficulty.
Did you know the model is "well known for being unreliable" before you acquired it, or was that a recent discovery?
Edited by Bill Payer on 01/10/2009 at 12:04
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As a customer, not someone from the trade, I think there are two ways to look at this:
1) Do what the letter of the law requires you to do. The customer has no grounds to bring a complaint against you.
2) Do what is required to establish a good reputation. Follow Bell Boy's advice, refund the customer (in his position, I'd think it fair if you bought back the car less the discount for the use he actually got from it mentioned above) and auction it on.
There are lots of dealers out there. If you build a reputation for dealing fairly with customers, that should stand to you in recommendations and repeat business. If you build a reputation for what customers see as shirking your responsibility, they'll move on to the next garage.
In any case, I wouldn't resell the car from your own lot - you've already been bitten once by it. You can redeem the relationship with your present customer, but why risk damaging your good name by souring another buyer?
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In any case I wouldn't resell the car from your own lot - you've already been bitten once by it. You can redeem the relationship with your present customer but why risk damaging your good name by souring another buyer?
I would. After all, it is now a known quantity, unlike the next heap from the auction, which could just as easily be a reject from another dealer...
It's a tough trade to be in, that's for certain!
Reputation is indeed, everything. However, it may be too late to get redemption with this customer, seeing as they've already started waving the big stick at you.
Do the minimum required to pacify and consider it a lesson learned, good advice re: SLA with the warranty co above.
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is there any chance the buyer swopped the gearbox? jag.
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It might have been an idea to have taken a high res photograph of the engine bay before sale, that way if anything has been tampered with the photo may show it. Maybe a few good photos of the gearbox area etc will only take seconds and modern cameras are so good you may even be able to take photos of setrial numbers etc.
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Whats all the hype about the "Warranty", that means nothing - you purchased it to protect you not the customer - the customer is covered by the SOGA. I think they have every right to reject the car, you have not fixed it in a reasonable time, the fact you were having to wait for another party is beside the point, that is not the customers problem (or at least should not be their problem!).
Do the decent thing and give him his money back before it starts to get ugly and he goes to the small claims court.
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....im recently established and started trading cars...and so far its been going really well...
According to some of the doom mongers on here making money from buying and selling cars is impossible, so well done.
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Where is the OP?
Concur with BB (again)
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Hi guys
Thanks a lot for the response.
Well I spoke with trading standards today and they were very supportive actually!
They said that I had acted appropriately by taking the car back for repair immediately. If I didnt do this and the car was sat on his drive still it would be a different case.
Also, as the customer took 3 weeks to find a fault, even if it was a new vehicle it would be extremely unlikely that he could reject the vehicle at this stage and by allowing me to take the car back for repair has accepted this option - provided its done within a reasonable time period. I obviously asked what they regarded as being a reasonable time and due to the fact its a major part and a warranty company is involved, they said anything upto about 2 months - which I found to be too long a period to be honest.
Basically, if for any reason the fault reoccurred I would still have 2 further attempts to fix it before having to offer a refund. Obviously, it would cost me a significant amount of money to go this route at this stage (my estimation would be around £2500-3000 including repair as the warranty is in the customers name) so I was very relieved because I really feel like im doing everything I can to rectify the fault. Also, although I havent given him a repair date and apparently I have 'breached my contract' I have no obligation to do so at this stage because the warranty company have to investigate and have appropriate time to do this.
Trading Standards have even offered to send a rep over next week to have a chat about my obligations as a dealer and how I can protect myself due to me being a newly established business. I have to say, a very impressive service and they were very informative.
Also, regarding the clocking, I checked on the Experian register and there are no mileage discprencies, likwise on the MOT's and the interior/bodywork really look like new etc. I highly doubt its been clocked and likewise the mechanic carrying out the work agreed - but obviously there are no guarantees and a history etc. can easily be made I guess. I would never knowingly sell a clocked car and carried out all the checks I could. I purchased it off an elderly couple who had owned it for years etc. and it just doesnt add up.
Anyway, things have progressed. It looks like the warranty assessors are inspecting the stripped gearbox on monday and should authorise the work to be done - so it could be fixed within a matter of days. I am also having 2 minor issues sorted out for him as a good will gesture that he was made aware of prior to sale.
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Thanks for the feedback, TS can be very good on a local level and I've had dealings with them a few months ago over a client's cowboy builder incident - they worked very well for and with us.
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