From today's Mail.
Car in front overturned and rolled. Following driver, with others, helped the driver, who seemed to be 'walking wounded' and sat him in his car to keep warm. Services arrived and the Paramedic ordered the fire service to cut the roof off the car to enable them to get him get out.
Good samaritan left at roadside with roofless car and all his possessions getting wet.
Now £500 out of pocket,,,,, must have been a 'banger', but nevertheless, his property.
Probably 3rd party on that value car but would comp pay out anyway. I
Knowing this, I think I would have let him lean on my bonnet to keep warm. Driver taken to hospital by ambulance and released later uninjured.
Ted
|
This is more common than you think. There have been a number of very new Police cars turned into convertibles thanks to the Fire Brigade. (They do enjoy using the cutters) It comes down to the litigation madness that exists these days. Emergency services are concerned about being sued if they move someone and they then claim further injury.
We are VERY aware of this we normally sit someone near to the scene rather than in the car (using common sense). It's something everyone should be aware of if a walking wounded is complaining of a stiff neck.
|
|
|
|
Why is he out-of-pocket?;he should claim off the person he helped(their car insurance).
|
|
|
First of all, its good that that the driver was ok.
It sounds to me that the paramedics were paranoid that the driver had back injuries, and weren't going to take a miniscule risk. Having said that, if the person can walk around unaided, he's unlikely to have major back problems.
My thoughts are (without any legal background that is), that the car being cut up is a consequence of the original accident and part of the medical treatment for the drivers injuries. I think that the good samaritan would be quite justified issuing a summons against the driver of the overturned car. He could justifiably claim for a replacement car, his possessions, and any additional costs.
I'm also pretty certain that it would be a waste of time attempting to claim anything from the ambulance or fire services.
|
As a serving fire officer I always liaise at the scene of an RTC with the paramedics in attendance as to the extent of injuries and their priorities/protocols prior to deciding whether to remove a door, side or roof.Sometimes a casualty can be removed quite easily without resorting to cutting the vehicle. Others with life threatening injuries need removing more rapidly.We only cut if we have to. Not just for the fun of it.
I'm sorry MLC, not all fire service personal are "gun ho", as per your experiences. Remember a lot of Brigades are crewed with part time retained volunteers, who can be a bit more enthusiastic at incidents, compared with their more calmer, experienced whole time colleagues.
Edited by scribe on 23/01/2009 at 17:01
|
I'm sorry MLC not all fire service personal are "gun ho" as per your experiences. Remember a lot of Brigades are crewed with part time retained volunteers who can be a bit more enthusiastic at incidents compared with their more calmer experienced whole time colleagues.
It was a tongue in cheek comment...I'm usually to busy shooing the Fire Engines off my accident scene to worry about the cutters :)
|
|
|
|
The emergency services have the weight and authority of government behind them.
Our government works on the basis that what they say is incontrovertible.
Our government works to a set of rigid rules and targets that no sensible person can overturn.
Can you, therefore, understand how this situation has arisen?
Edited by doctorchris on 23/01/2009 at 16:55
|
"Our government works to a set of rigid rules and targets that no sensible person can overturn."
Perhaps the Westminster Morons could get these rules applied to cars so that they couldn't be overturned either. Sorry - it is Friday and I have just my Winter 1/4 gas bill! Morale has been higher!
|
|
|
|
|
Were I the person who had been in the accident, I quite simply would not have let them cut me out of the car. I would have stepped out myself before they did.
|
|
What would be the legal position of the car owner declining to allow the Fire service to cut the car??
|
I recall FB have power of entry into premises if they suspect a fire. Don't think it could be stretched to snipping your car roof. Scribe???
|
|
I think that's a power of entry to save life/property. The cause (eg fire) could be anything.
|
|
Somehow it just seems better for the 'hero' to drive on past. I recall reading somewhere that a 'hero' was sued.
|
|
I know of a "Hero" who was killed assisting accident victims before the emergency services arrived at the scene. He was hit by a passing vehicle.
|
|
|
|
I would allow them to cut the roof off the car. However, if they then abandoned me at the side of the road in the rain as they did with this chap I have visions of leaping from foot to foot in rage screaming abuse and every swear word I can think of at the retreating fire engine.
|
Police car roof removed,
tinyurl.com/dct79z
VB
|
|
|
|
|
|
Have attended a scene where the driver in a slightly damaged vehicle was complaining of a neck injury. Just as the paramedics asked us to set about his roof, he made a miraculous recovery and jumped out of his expensive car. On another occasion the reverse. A driver was seen wandering on a mobile before the emergency services turned up. He then got back in the car complaining of a spinal injury, which led to the roof being removed.
FYI
Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004
Part 2
(8) Road Traffic Accidents
(1)
(A) Rescuing people in the event of road traffic accidents in its area.
Included in the Act. Powers for firefighting and rescue work
Edited by scribe on 23/01/2009 at 23:26
|
|
|
|
|
|
If the injured bloke made it from his car to the other one surely he can't have been all that bad. Trying to help an injured person can land you in deep trouble if you aggravate the injuries...its possible to be sued! Still I reckon most of us would do our best for any injured person despite the possible pitfalls.
|
|
The point about this is that despite someone's ability to walk, the mechanism of injury must be taken into account. In the case of RTA c-spine (cervix, back of the neck) injury is possible, but may not come to light until later. Standard practice is to immobilise the neck with a brace. Roof removal goes some way toward removing the patient without twisting along the length of the spine. I'd be very pleased indeed to have good paramedics and Fire officers taking care of me in the event of accident, and they may cut as much metal as they see fit. I ask about the legal position for theoretical discussion only. If the good samaritan clearly tells the FB not to cut the car, would it be criminal damage if they carried on regardless?
|
Criminal damage Act 1971:
A person who without lawful excuse destroys or damages any property belonging to another intending to destroy or damage any such property or being reckless as to whether any such property would be destroyed or damaged shall be guilty of an offence.
Lawful excuse???
|
If he walked into my car he can damn well walk out again.
|
Lawful authority or reasonable excuse.
The former gives the Police for instance authority to break things (like doors down) the latter gives anyone authority to break down a door to save a life or similar.
Another beautifully worded and crafted bit of legislation. Unchanged since it was writ.
|
The former gives the Police for instance authority to break things (like doors down)
Slightly off key, In my police service, a colleague and I went out to a flat where a girl was locked out, (night-time, she was pretty and it was quiet.) 'You'll not break it down, my boyfriend made it burglarproof for me'. She was right, it didn't open with a good kick but the door, frame and surrounding brickwork crashed into the flat and landed on a glass coffee table covered with cups and glasses....we beat a hasty exit ! We caught her later on in the week having a wazz in a shop doorway, drunk...we took her home and she never let on.
Ted
|
|
Lawful Authority (and a giggle)
|
|
|
|
"Can you smell smoke?" CRASH
|
|
Fire Brigade Act 195 something - a good old stand by for the cops in the days on Mars.
|
|
|
|
>>the mechanism of injury must be taken into account.
>>In the case of RTA c-spine (cervix, back of the neck)
My knowledge of biology isn't that good, but I'm sure I'd never get a pain in the cervix...
PITA maybe, coccyx possibly. ;-}
|
|
|
|
>>Trying to help an injured person can land youin deep trouble if you aggravate the injuries...its possible to be sued!
>>
I think this is rumour.
|
Where there's blame there's a claim! £££££££££££££££
|
|
I remember a few years ago a link to a almost new Jaguar on ebay being sold for salvage, dark blue with cream leather with the roof cut off. There were lots of high-res pics and the URL can still be found with google on many forums. It had been the same situation where someone started turning on the taps and complaining of back ache when the Police and ambulance came so they had to get the Fire service to cut the roof off as procedures take precedence over common sense these days.
|
|
I think if you delve deep enough into the archives - you may find a link to it here !
|
|
So if you want to assist people after an accident, best to buy a convertible?
|
|
|
|
here's another one: www.hillsmotorparts.co.uk/breakers/jaguar//132230?...s
|
Tough as it is, I think I would prefer my car decapitated (had I been in the protagonist's position, re his car) rather than risk possible futher injury via an intervention I had (voluntarily) made.
It's easy to dismiss or miss spine injury, even if the person appears 'normal' & apparently functioning. Don't forget, the fight or flight adrenalin response can often mask serious injury - I often think of the Manchester City 'keeper Bert Trautman carrying on in the FA cup final with a broken neck amidst all the excitement.
I would also be quite happy to sue the aided driver for any cost to me had this happened & I were not covered by my own insurance & no other redress were available - fair exchange I would have thought.
|
|
|
|
Can anyone suggest why this roof was cut off? There doesn't appear to be any body damage at all.
|
Can anyone suggest why this roof was cut off? There doesn't appear to be any body damage at all.
person sat in it had neck/back injury and paramedics didn't want to bend the neck/back to get them through the door aperture, so fire brigade cut off roof, so you can get them out with a straight back/neck
could be a passenger who suffered cricked neck in severe braking..or more likely accident involving other vehicles where good samaritan has allowed walking wounded to sit in his/her own car, then emergency services have taken over..as per OP's thread
Edited by Westpig on 24/01/2009 at 13:09
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
A good reason not to get involved other than to phone the emergency services if asked.
|
A good reason not to get involved other than to phone the emergency services if asked.
>>
of course it's not....there's no reason why any decent human being can't help another at a time of distress or when injured. If you're worried about your pride an joy, sit them down on the back bumper where the boot space is..or on the floor outside the car with one of your floor mats underneath.
Why would you want to wait to ring the emergency services and see if someone asks...use your own common sense and call them yourself. Letting them know early is more helpful is it not...and it doesn't matter if a few people call i.e. duplication, as the calls soon get linked and the superfluous ones get binned leaving a working one.
Think if it was one of your family...would you want people to do the automotive equivalent of have a quick gawp, then step over them and ignore them...or stop help, provide first aid and comfort them
Edited by Westpig on 24/01/2009 at 13:32
|
'and it doesn't matter if a few people call i.e. duplication'
A few backs I remember seeing an article by the Police raising serious concerns over the popularity of the mobile phone and the way in which it had led to a flood of calls for incidents where as in the past, they may have received a couple at most from the scene of an incident.
Merseyside Police actually had to increase the size of it's call handling department because of this.
|
A great argument for convertibles!
|
Looks like another one in my local paper...
It's the latest craze going on amongst emergency services.
tinyurl.com/cxt3cw
|
|
I'd drive 100 metres down the road and kick him out into the gutter
|
|
|
|
The trouble is, the more toys you give some people, the more they want to use them.
|
Interesting couple of comments in the paper today.on the car being cut up. Two writer, the first saying it was completely unnecessary in the reported circumstances. The second saying it must be done every time, just in case.
The first writer....A 30yr service Paramedic Instructor. Gave his name
The second........A Red Cross first Aid Volunteer. Anonymous
I have nothing against volunteers, my daughter, a paramedic, loves them because if they are at the scene they always volunteer to carry the stretcher !
Ted
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
