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Bit like our PM's cavalcade using the bus only lane of the M25 on the basis of ' security " I'd have more respect for him if he at least admitted to using it because he hated queueing.
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I don't mind the Queen or a minister hurtling down the wrong side of the road surrounded by flashing outriders (no sirens in the monarch's case anyway) and carloads of heavies. Unless of course the minister in question has some personal responsibility for the traffic congestion that makes that sort of thing necessary. The allegation that the drivers or cavalcades are dangerous is utterly ridiculous. I've often seen these people in action and they are very, very good at what they do. Nor can even the most half-witted, sleepy passer-by claim that they are hard to see coming.
These figurehead citizens have very tight schedules. Do you really want everything to be out of synch as if this were some sort of tinpot small country?
We'll be there soon enough. Let's not be in a hurry.
As for the security services, from undercover organised crime plod to MI5 and the SAS, more power to their elbows, or most of them anyway.
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There's another aspect to the 3 emergency services use of sirens. In the case of the police we used to shut them off well before some incidents so as to not give the offenders prior warning of our arrival.
My daughter is a paramedic and in her case and that of the fire service, the sirens are an important way of letting the caller know that they are within earshot. This will give a patient a boost and may just stop someone on the point of jumping out of a burning building.
Ted
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From my experience they only tend to use them when needed... such as crossing traffic lights which are against them... as regards sounding the siren 'as they leave their garage' - yes both the ambulance and fire brigade do that where I live, at whatever time of day and night... and I can understand why they do as well...
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I am firefighter and drive with 'blues and twos' regularly, ie every shift. Our driving instructor suggests we should turn the sirens on as we leave the appliance bay and leave them on until we arrive at the incident. However, in practice, turning out in the middle of the night when traffic is light or on open roads the sirens are left off.
From personal experience I use the sirens approaching road junctions, roundabouts, red lights (where I would proceed at a walking pace), built up areas, and lines of traffic. Not an exhaustive list I know, but you get the idea.
We are taught not to intimidate other road users and to 'hang back' until you can gauge other drivers reactions. Some drivers pull up to a stop, others move over to the side of the road and some just don't see or hear the sirens and blue lights and continue as normal. This last case really is the only time I would use the bullhorn which really seems to panic other road users, upsets pedestrians and causes horses to panic.
As pointed out by another poster an onboard computer records many parameters including if the blue lights are on, sirens are on etc. So if there was a crash or problem there is a record of what the driver was doing at the time. On the fire engines in my brigade there are also cameras and microphones to record antisocial behaviour towards the crews. I can imagine this would also be looked at if a firefighters driving was called into question.
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Re the movement of VIPs. Its not all about schedules. A stationary vehicle is a sitting target for any threat. The purpose of keeping the vehicle/s moving is to minimise that potential threat.
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Re the movement of VIPs. Its not all about schedules. A stationary vehicle is a sitting target for any threat. The purpose of keeping the vehicle/s moving is to minimise that potential threat.
I think that Lud's comment in that respect should be read as being strongly tongue-in-cheek.
Part of the security concerns, though, depend on the level of the perceived threat. Clement Attlee used to commute alone on the train, but no current PM would dare do that. On the other hand, Swedish prime ministers used to walk alone through city streets at a time when British PMs were well-guarded; they gave that up after Palme was shot, but the use of the keep-moving motorcade says something about the extent to which those in power feel the need to be protected from the people they govern (which I think may have been part of Lud's point).
In the early 90s I once got v near to Frankie Mitterand, when I was standing at Hyde Park Corner waiting for a friend and his limo pulled up right in front of me at the lights, on his way to dinner with Mrs Windsor. There was no sign of any security vehicles accompanying the President of France, so I guess he didn't feel as threatened as Bush the Elder, who flew overhead in a helicopter. Maybe he should have been, though, because within a few years of me waving at him from outside his car window ("Bonsoir, François"), the poor man was dead. The shock of seeing me obviously had some sort of delayed effect before proving fatal :(
However, some of the use of motorcades can be pure egotism. In Charles Haughey's last years as Taoiseach, he was routinely driven through Dublin with the sirens blaring and outriders clearing the road. His successors abandoned that practice, without any evident detriment.
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There was no sign of any security vehicles accompanying the President of France,
There may well have been one or two hovering discreetly nearby, NW... There are more these days though, and some of them want to be seen although there are probably others who don't.
In the early 80s I worked for a couple of French journals, one a a daily paper, and got to see Mitterrand a number of times at closeish quarters. The one that stands out in the memory was a joint press conference with our prime minister, perhaps around 1984 actually, in the French Ambassador's gaff near Notting Hill Gate. Mrs Thatcher (for it was she) and Mitterrand had an edgily flirtatious relationship. 'I think what the President means to say...' followed by 'I must thank the Prime Minister for speaking on my behalf...' A feline occasion, on which arched backs, fur standing on end and a spot of hissing hardly even had to be imagined...
A couple of years later, at the Franco-African Summit in Vittel, I got a rather good photo of Mitterrand and Captain Sankara, then President of Burkina Faso (Upper Volta), roaring with cheerful laughter together. No one would have printed it though because they were supposed to be at daggers drawn politically... It's a complicated world sometimes...
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As I have said in an earlier post, I have no problem with the fire service, they seem to fully appreciate what the blues and twos are for. However, I am of the opinion ( I am allowed an opinion aren't I ? ) that you could put an ambulance on the salt flats of Utah in broad daylight and it would immediately switch on its siren .
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Of course you are, MrX, but don't be offended if others express views which differ to yours... they are just as entitled to their opinions.... for example I saw an ambulance going the other way down a dual carriageway yesterday which had its blues on but no sirens...and I suppose that it depends what sort of road the fire engine/ambulance is turning onto whether they use their sirens when leaving the garage... our local ambulance garage leads straight onto one of the local main roads so I can understand it if they do use them...
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I am not the least offended by others views just offended by the need of some posters to indulge in snide remarks and name calling as a retort to my view point.
You managed to put your side of it with out lowering yourself to that level.
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Mr X,
When you post things that some folk on here know to be completely wrong and it is written in a broadly negative fashion...then it can hardly be surprising that some of the responses are a tad short and sharp.
For example, the ambulance service. I am not, have never been and never will be in that service. I have no friends/family involved either...yet KNOW how well they operate, how useful they are to society, how stretched their resources are etc... and find it totally laughable that someone moans about them, because they live next door to an ambulance station and the sirens often go off. I consider that to be incredibly selfish and/or incredibly ignorant. That's not to say of course there never has been or never will be an ambulance driver that has done something they shouldn't have...but IMO based on over 25 years of close working with that service, that would be most rare.
It is the same principle as me posting something critical of others in the technical section or about computer usage. I know sod all about it..so I keep quiet.
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Couldn't have put it better myself! :-)
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The last time I traveled in an ambulance it didn't have its blues and twos on. My dislocated shoulder wasn't considered serious enough for that.
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Last time I was in an ambulance (Italy) no needs for sirens. The accident we were in grid locked the roads so it was empty to the hospital.
I still wonder the significance of two traffic policemen staying with us for most of the day. They took statements and eventually took us back to the wreck to get luggage. But they even got visited by other traffic police.... I'll never know...
Edited by rtj70 on 30/11/2008 at 22:22
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I think the pro police whatever they do line on here is a bit over the top sometimes
where's the balance
yes they and other emergency services do a tough job, and I'm grateful for the hardworking ones doing their best in tough situations
but parts of the services do attract folk with strange attitudes
I really don't think blasting up ken high st on the wrong side of the road is a valid thing to do, with shoppers trying to cross the road, doesn't matter how many motorcycle outriders and police cars are in the convoy, the sultan of wherever returning from his shopping trip is no reason to risk the publics life in such a blatant way -AND I'VE SEEN THIS MULTIPLE TIMES THIS IS NOT FANTASY
the police doing this have such a cocky attitude as well, their driving is ok, but its not *that* good
ordinary plod in avon and somerset police will openly tell you of the stuff special branch get up to, and when you know which are their unmarked range rovers (etc) and you just watch what they get up to going to the sandwich shop... yes they appear to be a law unto themselves, not good for anyone
and why do you think folk like me making these comments have no knowledge, some of us do have knowledge, were just not prepared to be tolerant to the worst abuses of power
and appeal for some common sense to bring the worst of these drivers back in line
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Several years ago I watched a 3 car shunt. SB vehicle goes in to back of Police bike and is rear ended by marked police car. The Royal in the front vehicle was already getting out and shaking hands by this time. Laughed, I nearly bought a round. Yes retgwte, cocky sums it up.
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Mr X has expressed his opinion which differs from yours.
Your response seems rather emotionally charged. Just because policemen, paramedics etc do their job doesn't mean we all should worship them blindly.
His point was simply that, in his opinion, paramedics go around with their lights and sirens on more than is necessary.
For that you say his is a 'stupid post'.
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I think this thread has discussed all it will. And is getting too personal. So it is locked.
Rob, Moderator
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