It doesn't say what was done to the front brakes though. Were the calipers renewed, or just the piston seals? The wheel balancing should only have been done if requested. But if a roll-bar bush had perished it might have become annoyingly rattly.
My guess is that they may have tried to soak yr old man as much as £500. If they have, go round there with some heavies and torch the place (only figuratively of course).
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£380 is spot on - it sounds a bit rich to me even for the work they are doing.
Im just going with him to collect the car so will post back when i find out exactly what it is they say they have done!
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Depends on what parts were needed for the brakes etc..
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>>£380 is spot on - it sounds a bit rich to me even for the work they are doing.
£380 sounds about right. What sounds a bit rich is expecting the work to be done. It's another horrid, worthless old car, on which more than its value is being spent for optional servicing items.
The art of running a car cheaply is NOT spending money on it. With its likely fuel economy, the car is probably worth more in the scrapyard than on the road.
You miss the point in running a cheap car if you're prepared to spend that sort of money on it. It would make £200 if sold - so you could buy a better version of it for the same money.
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There are two reasons for maintaining a worthless old car more or less correctly. One is to prevent it from breaking down at an awkward moment. The other is to avoid the time-wasting hassle and risk of finding another useable worthless old car and coming to terms with its vagaries. That's worth a couple of hundred a year if you ask me.
Of course some people have all the time in the world and enjoy this Armenian carpet-dealer scene. People like that can parlay their way up from a Cat D writeoff Renault 4 to a nearly-new Bugatti Veyron in a few months. Alas, I am not one of them.
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Stu,
Breakers yard for parts?
If you have a Unipart or a Partco available you will pay less than £150 for all of the parts you have listed.
If you are mechanically minded you could then fit them yourself. If not find one of those mobile mechanics or a mate to do the work for you.
It is quotes like the one your Dad has been given today that got me started in home mechanics - so many rip off merchants out there.
Edited by Tron on 01/10/2008 at 17:31
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>>Breakers yard for parts?
Second hand brake fluid, oil filters, HT cables, fuel filters...
OK, I'll accept there are stingier people out there than me.
And Lud, of course I take your point. But I think that a car that has reached that sort of age isn't worth spending money on - even the oil change is getting marginal...
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>>But I think that a car thathas reached that sort of age isn't worth spending money on - even the oil change is getting marginal...
What formula do you work to decide that then?
What should he do? Go out and buy another 300 pound Astra and then find it needs an inevitable oil change?
Thats a 300 quid oil change in effect. That most definatly isnt bangernomics its folly.
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I know there is an extreme form of bangernomics that some people follow, where they buy a car as cheaply as possible that runs and has some ticket left, then when the MOT runs out they weigh it in.
I've never been convinced that that is cost effective though. To buy a car that's cheap enough for this to work, you need to be talking about something for £150. The chances of such a car reaching the next MOT without needing a repair are remote.
We know nothing about this Astra. From what stu says his dad is not averse to maintaining the car properly, so who is to say that it isn't every bit as good a car as the average 5-year-old motor people buy from Vardy's for three grand?
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Well the car is back. Turns out the brake issue was a leaking rear wheel cylinder according to the invoice so it made sense to change the fluid at same time.
The air filter was black, one of the HT leads was severed and sparking on the engine block on occasion, the front droplink had snapped completely and the fuel filter was near on blocked, saw the parts myself - glad its not my car!
The service itself was 81 quid plus VAT which is oil/filter, air filter, plugs plus a 30 point check.
My dad got the car for free and he doesnt run it because its a banger, its his car, he isnt making any social statement. To replace it would either involve spending thousands of pounds of a few hundred and being back where he is now if not worse - we have the service history from new so we know how its been treated and looked after.
He is planning to take it to Cornwall which is a 5 hour drive, not to mention the running around when they get there, so me thinks perhaps some of those faults are not ones you would wanna take on such a long journey.
Understandably it drives alot better, I still think its a bit steep on labour - they dont show a breakdown for the labour either which isnt good practice, still he reckons it costs him on average £150 a year on mantainance which isnt bad really, its just a bad year.
Lets hope the December MOT is a good one.
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>>Lets hope the December MOT is a good one.
Lordy me. Next year, get the MOT done BEFORE the service, not after. There may be another long list of things that need doing for that in 8 weeks' time.
>>its just a bad year.
It's an old car that's going beyond marginal.
>>To replace it would cost thousands of pounds
Come, come come.
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I would think it would drive a bit better given the things wrong with it stunorthants....
I agree it's not good practice not to specify labour hours though. Indicates something is perhaps being got away with a bit, although nothing very grave by slightly-dodgy-garage-round-the-corner standards. Sounds as if they felt justified in topping up a bit because they had obviously improved the car substantially, and made it safer actually.
Yr father hasn't come out of it too badly, seems to me, although if you've got a good indy garage it might be worth steering him towards it next time. I hope his expedition goes well.
Also looks dodgy that front wheel cylinders (plural) turned out to be one rear wheel cylinder.
Edited by Lud on 01/10/2008 at 19:44
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slightly-dodgy-garage-round-the-corner standards.
My slightly-dodgy-garage-around-the-corner suffers from the other extreme. It can be a fuss sometimes to get them to recognise that there is actually something wrong with a cat in the first place.
I've never known them to overcharge for a job, or to invent work.
He even gives me mates' rates for fixing his computer. Sometimes I think the guy is just too honest.
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Mine's like that too. But I don't think of him as dodgy.
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Oh he's dodgy alright. He's got a big dog with a scar on it's head and everything ;)
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Well the car is back. Turns out the brake issue was a leaking rear wheel cylinder according to the invoice so it made sense to change the fluid at same time. The air filter was black one of the HT leads was severed and sparking on the engine block on occasion the front droplink had snapped completely and the fuel >> >> filter was near on blocked saw the parts myself - glad its not my car!
we have the service history from new so we know how its been treated and looked after.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight
[/Dr Evil voice]
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>The air filter was black, one of the HT leads was severed and sparking on the engine >block on occasion, the front droplink had snapped completely and the fuel filter was near >on blocked, saw the parts myself - glad its not my car!
>we have the service history from new so we know how its been treated and looked after.
Errr thats a pretty poor full service history.
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>>What should he do?
Whatever he SHOULD do, he shouldn't be spending £380 on a £100 car to turn it into a £150 car. That isn't merely folly; it's completely, utterly, stark, staring bonkers. That is called pouring £330 down the drain; much better spent in the pub, or on the horses.
Without paying for this service, he would have had £500 to spend on a new car - which would provide an 8 year old Nissan Almera/Primera with 12 months MOT and a chain cam.
>>What formula
When value of car after work is much less than value of car before work plus cost of work.
HT leads and plugs on a car like that are for replacing in November (probably 2010) when it is becoming hard to start in the morning.
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When value of car after work is much less than value of car before work plus cost of work.
Taking that to extremes, what about the £3000 diesel car whose intercooler and turbo explodes -- cost £2500 -- would you scrap the car instead?
I know where you are coming from and I have a lot of sympathy for your viewpoint but the fact is that the reason a 15-year-old car is only worth £200 is because you're taking a huge risk buying one. If you *know* that car is reliable, it then becomes worth more.
I'd rather have a 15yo Astra that I knew the history of than a £500 Almera that could be being sold because the ECU has gone nuts for all I know.
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>>What should he do? Whatever he SHOULD do he shouldn't be spending £380 on a £100 car to turn it into a £150 car. That isn't merely folly; it's completely utterly stark staring bonkers. That is called pouring £330 down the drain; much better spent in the pub or on the horses.
Say last year it cost him nothing. So thats £190 a year. What if the next year it costs him nothing. Thats £126 a year.
Plus its not a £100 car. with 12 months ticket it becomes a £250 quid car. Bingo we are spending £126 on a £250 quid car.
>which would provide an 8 year old Nissan Almera/Primera with 12 months MOT and a chain cam.
Can you get a 2000 Almera with 12 months ticket for £500?
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1.>>Errr thats a pretty poor full service history.
2.>>with 12 months ticket it becomes a £250 quid car.
But not with your first point...
This car must have driven like a nail prior to this service. £380 was presumably the minimum that the garage could get away with spending, and I bet they'd have found another £1,000 of expenditure if they'd wanted to. It's clearly never (or not in the last five years) been maintained up to even a minimum level of servicing. Black air filters... sparking HT leads? I wonder when the cambelt was last done.
>>"say" "what if"
Say last year it cost him £150 too; and next year it will cost him £200; and the MOT in 8 weeks time costs him another £150. Who knows. One can only base ones business plan on certainties, and £380 is certainly a lot of money when it is considerably more than the fifteen year old car is worth.
>>Can you get a 2000 Almera for £500
Just about. A 1999 one anyway, might have to find an extra £100 for the 2000 version. Just look on autotrader.
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even the oil change is getting marginal...
Couldn't agree less. A high-mileage engine needs more frequent oil changes, not less. An old engine with dirty, gritty oil and a clogged oil filter will deteriorate rapidly and go from being a sweet-as-a-nut old midrange cruiser to a gasping asthmatic throwaway with broken piston rings somewhere on the motorway one fine day.
Of course some cars stand up heroically to this sort of abuse. But they stand up even more heroically without it.
It is in the suspension, brakes, steering and underbody rust places that old cars cost money to keep going, and it is likely to be one of these that will lead owners to send for the vet with his humane killer.
Edited by Lud on 01/10/2008 at 19:24
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My dad has decided to keep the car until my mum retires ( 2018 ) unless either engine, gearbox or serious structural failure.
As such, he is maintaining the car to a standard that will keep it in good health for ten years. Whether it will last that long who knows, but its quite possible as the car has no structural rust aside from a couple of inch square bits at the back end which are about 80 quids worth of welding, the engine has had every oil change from new and the gearbox is as smooth as it ever was.
He says that he doesnt wanna buy someone elses banger with all their associated problems, so short of spending a couple of grand on a car still old enough to have a fair few things go wrong, he doesnt see the point.
At no point did I ever say he was attempting bangernomics, thats for a certain type of person - my dad has plenty of money but if he can put off spending thousands on a decent newer car, he surely will. That wasnt really why I started the thread, just wasnt sure how much the work is worth.
Wasnt main dealer btw, it was one of those fast fit centres.
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Wasnt main dealer btw it was one of those fast fit centres.
Explains a lot ;)
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"My dad has decided to keep the car until my mum retires ( 2018 ) unless either engine, gearbox or serious structural failure." and good for him! I ran the same Cavalier from the showroom until it was 16 years old and worth about £3.50. It was only changed because a company car arrived. It was serviced and repaired exactly the same at 15 as it was at 1 year old. We are talking about maintaining safety and reliability not whether its snob value or market value gives you street cred. I recommend anyone to read "Magnificent Morris Minor" by Max Horvat about living with a car for decades, still travelling all over Europe in it and servicing and replacing everything necessary on the dot.
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Orginally the car was my grandfather's ( who bought it brand new in 1993 ) and when he died in 2004, my nan gave it to my dad. It was serviced until 2004 at main dealer, no expense spared. My dad hasnt gone that far but he still likes it to have a good service once a year and keep on top of things.
The rear arches need some tidying but aside from that theres no rust, although it leads a hard life so the bodywork is quite scratches - nothing that cant be sorted but not really worth it given its workhorse type use.
Im gonna clean it up next year for their holiday or maybe pay someone else to, its full of dog hair in the boot area and I hate the stuff!
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This is a great thread on how not to run a cheap car cheaply. Perhaps this is worth a re-read - although it looks increasingly dated(!). bangernomics.tripod.com/intro.htm Although as OP points out that his father is perfectly well off, perhaps he chooses not to try to run it cheaply, but is in fact trying to prove that a 25 year-old Astra (as it will be by 2018) can still stay alive.
>>he still likes it to have a good service once a year and keep on top of things.
Sparking HT leads are about as far away from "keeping on top of things" as one could imagine. A black air filter makes it quite clear that it has not had a good service for some years.
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He decided in 2005 just to do the oil changes and MOT - the recent work is punishment for doing so me thinks.
Im not sure why having a car with a low value means you should automatically run it on a shoestring. My dad isnt trying to prove anything, he just doesnt want to buy another car, he sees little point in it.
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>>Im not sure why having a car with a low value means you should automatically run it on a shoestring.
Nor am I, but that's what your father has been doing for the last four years
Your father decided in 2005 only to do basics - so it's last service was 2004. Having run it into the ground for 4 years, causing excessive wear to all sorts of components, he suddenly decides to spend a load of money on it. Bonkers.
It's a far cry from your early claims about FSH! The truth is that it has full evidence of having had nothing done to it since 2004.
Get hold of an 8-year old Almera, and four years ago it was only 4 years old, so probably being main-dealer serviced by its first owner. Since then it will have been cosseted at an independent.
Yours must be due a cambelt change, and it is due an MOT. So another 300? needs spending on it at least within the immediate future. Good money after bad. How to run a car very expensively.
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Oh its had repairs and and some service items such as brake pads etc, it just hasnt had coolant, PAS fluid changes etc.
I got the year wrong - 2006 was the first time he did minor service only. Cambelt was done in 2005, found an invoice for it and theres a sticker to that effect too in the engine bay. The 2006 service is little more than an interim one anyway after the cambelt service of the previous year.
What has been missed out amounts to coolant and PAS changes plus an air filter - hardly the end of the world!
The MOT isnt due till december and aside from a slightly perished rubber fuel pipe, the garage reckon it will pass no probs now.
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My dad has decided to keep the car until my mum retires ( 2018 )
Has he decided not to buy a new car?
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=65472&...f
The rear arches need some tidying but aside from that theres no rust,
Was the structural rust mentioned in the above thread a false alarm?
He is planning to take it to Cornwall
Why not take the other, newer and reliable, car - Hyundai Coupe?
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Yes he has decided against a new car now, unless as I said, it has a major failure, he cant bear to part with the money. He wants a Prius as and when he does, whatever version is around at the time.
No, there are a couple of small bits in rear inner arches where mud has collected, but easily welded. The outer arches are a bir frilly on the edges but it could be sorted if one was motivated to.
My parents would take the Hyundai normally but they are taking my grandmother who has alot of extra kit associated with her MS which wont fit in the Hyundai along with all their normal luggage.
Only 5 years ago the car was touring europe and it wasnt young then, im sure it will manage it ok, it will get a through looking over before they leave im sure.
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How to runa car very expensively is buying a £15,000 car and having it valued at 6-7000 after 3 years, but i suppose that is OK as 95% of the population do that as they are obsessed with getting new cars every 5 minutes. I would rather prefer spend max 500 pound per year with no deprecaition even if it is a nail than waste 2000 per year on depreciation alone. Good luck with the astra OP, it sound like an OK car
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>>buying a £15,000 car and having it valued at 6-7000 after 3 years
That significant numbers of private motorists continue to do exactly this is just one of many aspects of life which tell me how thick we (i.e., people in general) are. However, on an individual level, I'm glad that people do continue this stupidity, because it keeps a nice feed of second hand bargains coming onto the market.
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TimO>> How to runa car very expensively is buying a £15 000 car and having itvalued at 6-7000 after 3 years
How to run a NICE car expensively - about 3k p.a. Fair enough; people can afford it; they spend time in their cars; they enjoy the thrill of a brand new car.
This thread details how to run a NASTY car expensively. A few quotations from stun'hants (and thanks to jbif for the link).
"the structural rust on the 15 year old Astra is getting MOT worthy... couple of inch square bits at the back end which are about 80 quids worth of welding where mud has collected"
"has a steering wheel vibration of half an inch at idle"
"vague steering doesnt even begin to describe it!"
"I drove it today and its a shed, "
"he wants nothing stressful like cars breaking down"
"My dad is insistant on cruise control, its a gadget he uses alot when he drives my mums car. [but the Astra doesn't have it]"
"Lets hope the December MOT is a good one."
"The rear arches need some tidying [being] a bit frilly on the edges"
"slightly perished rubber fuel pipe"
"Im gonna pay someone else to clean it"
Having spend £380 on your car, it is about to need an MOT - £53; rubber fuel pipe - £20? fitted; welding £80; cleaning £10. Possibly: tidying frilly arches (MOT failure next year if not this); new steering rack.
By the end of December, it will have cost nearly £600 - and possibly closer to £1,000 if the tester doesn't like the frilly arches/steering - after another 2,000 miles. And to use your words "its a shed".
That much money would just about buy a 2002 Nissan Primera with a year's MOT - particularly if you get £150 for the Astra.
I stand by my observation that it wasn't worth paying £25 to have the oil changed. None of that £380 is likely to have improved reliability - save for possibly the HT leads. Each to his own, I suppose.
TimO>>the Astra sounds like an OK car
:o
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