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around me in SW London, there has been a spate of new clamps being administered by the DVLA (the local council doesn't clamp yet!). Is this a new scheme against untaxed cars by the DVLA or has it been running for a while.
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When is a vehicle not a vehicle?
On a main road that I travel home on there is a car repair yard with two or three vehicles parked on the road outside with no number plates, no tax and in at least one case substantial damage fore and aft. One may be, IIRC, missing an engine.
The police and Council have taken no notice despite them being there for weeks.
And I'm sure it's a yellow line as well.
If you or I park for 5 minutes we'd be sure to get a ticket.
Do the authorities count these as heaps of metal and not vehicles, what has to be missing for it to cease to be a vehicle.
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Yes, I've often wondered that too. In particular, I'd like to know whether a car being towed has to be taxed and insured, or whether it counts as a trailer. Supposing it was an engineless rolling chassis, would that be a car?
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Yes, I've often wondered that too. In particular, I'd like to know whether a car being towed has to be taxed and insured, or whether it counts as a trailer. Supposing it was an engineless rolling chassis, would that be a car?
IIRC, providing the vehicle is more than 6" (or maybe 12") off the ground, then it doesn't have to be taxed/mot'd. Banger racing cars for example. However, the DVLA's SORN rules still apply.
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Do the authorities count these as heaps of metal and not vehicles, what has to be missing for it to cease to be a vehicle.
I've often wondered this.
Anyone given the definative answer on what makes a vehicle a vehicle? As a 15 year old lad I used to think pushing my motorbike on the road with th espark plug lead disconnected was legal. I'm not sure now. I know I risk 3 point getting my bike out of the garage with no helmet on.
A guy in the local paper near me had inherited an ageing vehicle. It had been rusting outside his house for many years awaiting restoration but it *was* on the verge (But with grass growing through it etc) and therefore on the road. Despite it being barely recognisable as a car he was done for the lot. Tax, insurance, MOT.
Brilliant detectivework - another dangerous criminal of the road.
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Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
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Clamp them, tow them, crush them! If little Hitler from C&E can get your car off you it should be a piece of ease for a Local Authority to do it.
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The scheme has been in operation for a year or two. And yes, if you don't pay the fine, buy a current tax disc and collect the car, then they do tow and crush them; sadly predictable.
There's probably details on the DVLC website.
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Some syndicate of seat-warmers'll be lining their personal pockets somewhere in this, you can bet. Officialdom is universally corrupt when it comes to this kind of dodge.....
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Here it is......
www.dvla.gov.uk/vehicles/wheelc.htm
Havent I seen the name sureway somewhere before??
Ian L.
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Chapter and verse for those interested:
Sect 29 Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 - a person who uses, or keeps, on a public road, a vehicle not being exempt, which is unlicensed is guilty of an offence. Penalty - £1000 fine or 5 times the amount of Duty chargeable, which ever is the greater.
Vehicle defined as a mechanically propelled vehicle
Public road defined in England, Wales and N.I. - a road which is repairable at public expense - more restricted than under Road Traffic Act. Scotland as under their Road Traffic Acts.
Held a vehicle without an engine is still a MPV when the intention of the owner is to make it mobile again (Binks v D of E 1975)
Removal of most of essential parts may cause it to cease to be a MPV but a vehicle that resembles a car is presumed to be a MPV even though essential parts have been removed if there is a possibility of their replacement in a reasonable time. (Newbury v Simmons 1961)
A towed vehicle will most likely require Excise, Insurance and Test Certificate.
Road Traffic Act similarly defines motor vehicle as a M.P.V. and adds intended or adapted for use on a road.
Under RTA road has a wider definition than the Excise Act as any highway and any road to which the public has access.
DVD
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Thanks DVD!!!
It seems almost anything remotely car like is an MPV. I hate the way UK law repeatedly defines words using the word being defined!
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Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
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Also, have you noticed how builders' skips are allowed to monopolize ~1.5 residents' parking spaces for months on end . . .
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Am I allowed to leave a caravan in the road indefinetley?
What about a trailer?
What about a car on a trailer? (Caravan on a trailer? depending upon the answers to above).
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No doubt DVD will advise in full but I thought trailers had to be lit at night if parked on public highway, even if its a 30. Or maybe the signs etc as for a skip would suffice, unless of course its in a recognised parking place.
Yonks ago once asked traffic the question as I had car, trailer and Mini regularly loaded up and parked outside ready for early starts to autotests. He looked it up in the book (Butterworths?) commented it had to be lit, but then added why bother as no one but us two (ie him and me) will know for sure one way or the other.
An add on question, if and MPV is a mechanically propelled vehicle, what is an Espace/Galaxy etc. MPV² ?? ;-)
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Why would a trailer have to be lit when cars arn't?
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Quite! It was coupled up, maybe that made a difference.
I think it also makes a difference according to weight, HGV's I think cannot park without lights except in a recognised parking place.
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Some trailer offences that seem to be mentioned above:
Sect 22 RTA 88: Cause or permit a m/veh OR TRAILER drawn by it to remain at rest on a road in such a position as to involve danger or injury to any other person using the road.
Reg. 103 M.V Con & Use Regs. 1986: No person in charge of a motor vehicle OR TRAILER shall cause or permit the vehicle to remain at rest on a road so as to cause unnecessary obstruction.
Reg. 24 Road Vehicles Lighting Regs. 1989: No person shall allow, cause or permit to remain parked between sunset and sunrise a TRAILER to the front of which no other vehicle is attached and which is not required to be fitted with front position lamps unless a pair of front position lamps is fitted and kept lit and unobscured.
Whilst generally vehicles are permitted to park without lights in a 30 mph or lower zone, a vehicle with trailer attached is not exempt (Sub Para 7, 8 of the Section).Special exemptions for HGV's in approved parkiong places/Lay by's
A Light Goods vehicle i.e. Transit size etc taxed at the Private/Light Goods Excise rate and which tows a small goods trailer and dependant on its size, could commit the heinous offence of using a vehicle to which a higher rate of Duty applies (Sect 15 Vehicle Excise & Registration Act 1994). Further dependent on the weight involved could incur the wrath of the Traffic Commissioners in that the towing vehicle may require a Tachograph..
Finally a quirk of the law, which I understand has yet to be rectified, is that whereas you commit an offence if you do not maintain the lights on your motor vehicle, this bit was missed out in respect of trailers.
DVD
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Untaxed probably also means uninsured. Peddalling through London this morning was nearly "taken from behind" by a not that young woman on a scooter.
Tax disc expired 03/00. Fortunately just a near miss.
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So if I understand this correctly (and I had to read it more than once!) I would have to have lights fitted and working to park a caravan in the road after dark.
"Reg. 24 Road Vehicles Lighting Regs. 1989: No person shall allow, cause or permit to remain parked between sunset and sunrise a TRAILER to the front of which no other vehicle is attached and which is not required to be fitted with front position lamps unless a pair of front position lamps is fitted and kept lit and unobscured."
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Interesting that it says "a pair of front position lamps" whereas cars often have an arrangement so that only ONE parking lamp is lit!
Different regulations or non-compliance?
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Graham
Caravan left by itself has to be lit. Exempt from this if it has a vehicle attached in 30 zone or less.
Brian W
No mention of one sided parking lights in the Regs. safety feature for those that so wish?.
Both: Type Keyword : Road Vehicles Lighting Regs 1989
which should give you access to the Regs themselves. Enjoy reading Regulation 24 in its entirity.
DVD
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Blooming 'eck DVD, now you've got me confused again.
Right so you previously confirmed what I had been told that car with trailer in a 30 needs to have lights on, as provided by
section 24 para 5 "paras 1, 2, 3 , 4 shall not apply in respect of a vehicle specified para 7 ....."
para 7 "classes of vehicle referred to in para 5 are
bla bla bla list of vehicle types
not being
(i) a vehicle to which a trailer is attached.
bla bla bla. list of other vehicles not exempt.
The key there is "not being", so that gives us where a car/trailer combo must have all its position lights lit.
However I don't understand where you get your comment above on caravans. "Exempt from this if it has a vehicle attached in 30 zone or less."
In section 3 table of definitions.
caravan = A trailer which is constructed ( and not merely adapted) for human habitation.
trailer = A vehicle constructed or adapted to be drawn by another vehicle.
Nowhere can I see in section 24 where a caravan is treated differently from a trailer regarding parking without lights when coupled up, but rest assured I'm going to regret you giving us that link. Notice its I'm gonna regret. ;-)
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M'Lord F. Higheff.
Your submission is correct.
DVD in his post of 17.05 16 Jul 02 states that according to the Road Vehicles Lighting Regs, 1989 a car with trailer has to display lights when parked in a 30mph zone during the hours of darkness. For the purposes of this a trailer is a caravan.
However in his post of 1506 17th Jul 02 DVD, in attempting to differentiate between a single vehicle and one with a trailer attached, omitted the word NOT preceedings the phrase:
DVD is most contrite about this slip of the pinkie brought about by the after effects of inhaling for 8 hours creosote fumes from painting fencing panels in the hot sun, an old tired brain and a failure to preview before posting. He is grateful you took the trouble to reply and point out this ommission and proving that he is human by erring.
Further, it appears that prior to 1972, Regulations which allowed parking lights to be displayed on one side of the vehicle were revoked.
Dwight.C.Q.
PS. Bet you found Reg 24 a model of clarity?
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M'Lord Moderator Formerly of Brazil,
Indeed I am most grateful to my learned friend for his forthright and timely admission of the miniscule error contained within his previous submissions.
May I support my learned friend's plea of mitigation in that I too, whilst operating under the influence of outdoor wood product preservative fumes, have also performed many deeds considered quite foolhardy when later examined in the cold light of day.
Therefore my Lord, may I most humbly propose that my learned friend DVD be considered as fully restored to his former exalted position as supplier of traffic law information to this place.
May he remain without a stain on his character, though it remains to be proven whether the same could be said regarding the trousers worn whilst creosoting. (snigger)
FiF (defender of the Barrack Room)
PS, re clarity of Reg 24, and to think that we actually pay people in real money to come up with that.
No wonder lawyers earn so much! Apols to pugugly etc.
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< >
If she was "not that young" she may well have been a Mrs, rather thana Miss. But certainly near!
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The following is a reply received from the DVLA by a friend.
"It may interest you to know that information regarding the reporting of unlicensed vehicles is available on the DVLA website under Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs).
There is a witness statement (CLE301/4) available from the website which a member of the public can download and send to their nearest Local Office if they wish to declare a formal sighting of an unlicensed vehicle."
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DVLA are only interested in untaxed vehicles which are parked on the public highway, they are not interested in people who continuously drive untaxed vehicles but park them on their drives even though these people are committing an offence.
More needs to be done to stop these people who think parking untaxed vehicles on their drives means they don't have to pay car tax.
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DVLA are only interested in untaxed vehicles which are parked on the public highway, they are not interested in people who continuously drive untaxed vehicles but park them on their drives even though these people are committing an offence.
The DVLA do operate "white vans" which sit at the side of roads and photograph potentially un-taxed moving vehicles.
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Yes they often park one just down the road from BCA Newcastle.
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A month ago some ________ (insert your own word here) reversed into my Fathers car in an untaxed Cavalier causing minor damage, the car drove off at speed and the police unsurpisingly found the last knowen keeper had sold it some time ago. Last week the Cavalier was clamped and lifted as part of the calmpdown on untaxed cars. It will be crushed if nobody claims it. Does my Father have a legitimate calim on this car?
I only ask the question out of interest as I doubt if it would be worth the effort
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I very much doubt it. Usually, Government Depts are first in the queue as regards money owing so assume they'll take the vehicle off the road in lieu.
But as you also say, I don't think it would be worth the effort. Maybe a claim in the small claims court against the driver if know would be more beneficial?
True, you may have little chance of getting any money, but you never know. Also, the driver will have a CCJ (?) against him if he fails to pay.
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As I said in my one word answer (that got removed for some reason) - Yes. You would have a claim under Common Law. In practice there would be, surmountable, difficulties....like proving that the driver at the time of the bump was the owner. I doubt whether HMG would be interested in recovering their losses from the deal - there are other ways of claiming ownership of this wreck quite legally and you could, in theory, have parked regally on your drive within 28 days.
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