I have a 2006 Focus TDCi. It has always been a good starter and ran well - until now.
A number of friends are running up to 25% vegetable oil in their 5 year old diesels so I decided to try it. I put a small percentage in a full tank of diesel - 6 litres in about 45 litres of fuels and it worked well. No problems at all.
Yesterday I tried 9 litres in 40 litres of diesel (about 18%) It started on a warm engine but on a run of about 2 miles to the shops it wasn't so good at low revs. But at least it started and on the way back was ok.
Today it won't start at all. Does it sound as though the fuel is too viscous and the tank has to be drained? And if so does the pump have to be primed?
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 08/12/2007 at 20:35
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I did write a reply previous to this but it's somehow changed to a string of stars? What I did write was........this time of year is quite hit and miss for running veggie oil. Even diesel has to be heated before it gets to the pump because it's quite thick when it gets cold. I've read that the best ratio for this time of year is 33% oil to 67% diesel. You've only put 9 litres into 40 litres of diesel, so maybe there's a problem elsewhere. Of course the pump could've been damaged, but I hope this isn't the case.
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I did write a reply previous to this but it's somehow changed to a string of stars?
You must have inadvertantly offended the swear filter. There are two ways in which it works - mild expletives just trash the one word: very naughty expletives trash the whole sentence / paragraph / everything.
As a general footnote for everyone, please don't see this as a challenge to work around the filter as my edit key has more clout than yours does. DD.
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Jim
I don't know where to begin - what a mess. What idiot told you that this was a good idea.
Firstly; this is a highly sophisticated common-rail electronic injector system - not an old-fashioned mechanical injection pump. It won't accept even a tiny percentage of proper bio-diesel - let alone straight veggie oil!
Does the tank need draining - yes. Get it towed to the dealers - nowhere else.
Is the vehicle's warranty now void - yes.
Have you caused damage to the expensive electronic injection components - probably.
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Jim
you have been a member on here for a good long time, you must have read some stuff on here about modern common rail diesels, what on earth do you think you were doing.
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< Ulla>
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Since daughter left home with her older cars and I then had reliable newish ones I must confess to not reading everything on here but I had a feeling I was going to come in for some knocking - and rightly deserved too.
If someone needs the name "screwloose" I think it should be me.
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Screwloose
Thanks -even though its bad news. At least its put my mind at rest and I won't have to rack my brains as to what to do.
The warranty was the first thing I thought of but its gonna have to go! Looks like its gonna cost me a few bob as well - a very very few bob! Any idea how much roughly? 4 figures?????
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Jim
All garages are seeing a lot of this now. They usually start "I read on the Web;" or "my mate said" - and that's just the ones who fess-up and don't waste hours of your time searching for the fault - before you find that it isn't DERV in the tank.
At a minimum, it's tank drained and a flush through; new filter, refill and see. £200-250.
[The drained fuel will go straight into a mechanic's old-tech diesel car with a splash of recovered petrol/DERV mix added to thin it a bit.... My Detroit-V8 recovery crane runs on everything that'll burn.]
At worst; it's a complete new fuel system - £3,000-ish. [Those hi-tech injectors are around £500 each and the two pumps, lines, rail, tank, filter housing etc. soon add up.]
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I`m not going to name the other forum, but in the summer there were a lot of kids putting raw cooking oil into their new common rail diesels (usually parental bought I suspect but not the fuel)
The threads nearly always peter out and i suspect problems have occurred and cars have quietly been moved on to save face.
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Try syphoning it out and refilling with diesel, then use a fan heater to gently warm the engine up and I'm sure it'll start. Your symptoms sound like typical cold day and veg oil. I would never have done this on a 1 year old car! The last lace I'd go would be the dealer, they're really punish you.
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You should not have put veg oil in the tank of your common rail diesel. On an 06 reg car, you were risking a lot for a saving of just a few quid and it was never worth it.
Regarding the warranty: it is better if veggie oil is not blatantly in the system when a dealer lays eyes on it. Take it to an independent first, describing the warranty problem, and wink... like this: ;)
You'll probably still lose the warranty.
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Well, people put the same amount of petrol in their cars and seem to get away with it (at least in the short term). I imagine the lubricity of petrol's going to be a lot less than vegetable oil.
Veggie oils never cheaper anyway if you do it lawfully.
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Mike Farrow
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Apparantly the law has been relaxed on the use of veg oil as a fuel.
You can use upto 2500 litres without paying duty.
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/working_lunch/62889...m
Lots of research is required before using it.
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On a constructive and hopeful note, I would recommend draining the tank and fitting a new fuel filter before desparation sets in.
At lowish temperatures, veg oil will plug the fine pores of the fuel filter with wax which will prevent starting. Although your car is fitted with my least favourite fuel system, I think you stand a very good chance of getting away with it.
Don't let the garage trade/environmentalists rip you off. Work out how you are going to drain your system (fuel gauge sender hole is a possibility) and have suitable plastic drums ready. If all goes to plan, use your saved fuel next summer at a very low dilution after ensuring that it is clean and fully mixed. Veg oil is nowhere near as harmful to a pump as is petrol.
659.
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Thanks 659 -I need a bit of cheering up but I'm still looking at the worst possible scenario.
I've got 2 options.
1 To call my friendly local garage and ask if he's equipped to do it. It's clean and he can do the draining and filter changing.
2 To call my friendly main dealer where I bought my last 2 cars and be up front about it.
At the minute I'm going for No 1 but who knows how I'll feel tomorrow. Either way I reckon I won't be able to be booked in till next week so I'll be very grateful for the use of my daughter's Corsa.
Must remember not to fill it up with diesel!!!
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Icouldn't belive what i was reading, why on earth would you want to put unrefined cooking oil in an HDI? May be lucky if you can drain it all & warm the engine up as long as the pump hasn't sheared. Drain it all & new filter, warm up with a fan heater in a lock up & fingers crossed. Forget cooking oil. Remind me not to buy a s/hand car off you!. Don't listen to anyone about running on veg oil. That 1.6 PSA engine is extremley complex & refined. I don't put supermarket diesel anywhere near my wifes 1.6 let alone veg oil.
I'm with screwloose but if your dealer find out that car will have no warranty & it will flag with ford & all the dealerships & the car will be worth nought.No sympathy whatsoever
Doc
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Taxation discussion moved over to Discussion into a standalone thread. Techy talk in here !
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JH do keep us posted when youve got some news on the motor.
Dont feel too bad, bet weve all done some really daft things in our time without thinking till it was too late.
That could be an amusing thread.....Confessions...(mechanical ones only).
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I'm waiting for the tow truck at the minute. The local garage is going to drain it - obviously -and then they'll let me know how good/bad it is. I've got a replacement car and managed to put the right fuel in it so all I need now is a "mysterious doner" !!!
I know - I'll contact one of those Nigerian business men who keep pestering me to help them get their money out of the country!!! In for a penny ----------
Jim
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Boy Jim, Have I got a deal for you. Apparently I have won 2.5 million dollars on a world wide lottery, they only need a few grand in admin charges and alike and the money is mine - Honest.
So look mate, if you send me the admin fee (I am a bit skint at the moment - western union will do) I will share the lottery win with you
Deal?
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< Ulla>
Edited by Altea Ego on 11/12/2007 at 17:51
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Jim, if at all possible, try to ensure that your garage fills the new filter by suction at the fuel outlet. This fuel system is not really up to the job of self-priming a dry filter and problems could ensue if this is tried.
659.
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"mysterious doner" !!!
Well I think we've all had a few of those on a Friday night walking home from the pub
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I don't put supermarket diesel anywhere near my wifes 1.6 let alone veg oil.
Injection Doc, all diesel in France is a 5% biodiesel blend by law. Would you put that into your wife's 1.6?
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The manual on my 1.8TDCi C-Max states that only a 5% biodiesel blend is allowed. Anything else (including using diesel additives), voids the warranty.
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How much do you save?
At an average of 45mpg say ( my wifes 1.6tdci averages 54.7 constant)
12000 miles per year would mean 1210 ltrs of fuel
18% of 1210 is 217 ltrs of cooking oil & say oil is 45p ltr 217 ltrs cost 97.65 whereas diesel would cost 223.51
So in 12000 miles at 18% mix which it didn't like anyway you would save £125 per year.
Just think that isn't even the price of one injector. If you did 24000 miles a year it still only saves £250 in a year but think of any repair cost related to a fuel issue! so why run on Veg oil
Hiope your all fixed now Jim.
Rgds Doc
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Just wanted to bump this one back up the forum. Any news Jim?
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lets hope its all sweet now? any new's Jim. Keeping it alive
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Bump, we've got all sorts crossed for you Jim
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Don't keep me in suspenders,I am waiting with baited breath to know out come.Andrew...
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I do like my Diesels to be Turbocharged for that extra OOMPH!!!!
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I've e-mailed the OP - I woke up at 3.00am thinking about this. Mrs P reckons I need to get out more !
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Thanks very much guys. I really appreciate your interest and advice. But it's good news with a very trivial bit of bad. But cutting to the chase - The car is now running.
As for how much do you save? Peanuts compared to the potential damage and the nervous tension!
I took it to my local friendly garage and they took out the tank and drained it. I was told the fuel was like engine oil. Having had it for 4 days he said he cleaned the pipes but it still wouldn't start so I feared the worst. When he gave me the bill for £300 I was shocked. So I added a fair bit to show my gratitude.
It still runs as well - if anything it's livelier - but when I lifted the bonnet the next day I found the plastic cover over the engine was cracked. So I had the embarrassing task of mentioning it. But no one knows how it happened - "It was already like it" . Well what can I say when he's got me out of the stuff? So with the money I've saved I suppose I'll have to try and pick up one from a breakers
Anyone know the rough cost new and used? 2.0 l Duratorq.
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Jim, glad you got it sorted.
Anyone know the rough cost new and used? 2.0 l Duratorq.
£90 new according to one eBay trader. Try fordpartsuk.com , who'll be cheaper than the dealers, but check they don't sting you with postage.
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Mike Farrow
Edited by mfarrow {P} on 24/12/2007 at 18:01
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Great to hear its running! at least that will improve your X-mas. "so how much veg oil are you going to add now then Jim?"
Happy new year & thanks for update.
Doc
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Well done, Jim. Happy Christmas.
659.
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Very pleased for you Jim, we can all rest a bit easier now.
With a bit of luck your warranty is intact still.
Should imagine its going to take some living down, my mates would never let me forget.
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Hi Jim,
I've put the odd bottle or three of veg oil in my C3 HDI for 6 months now and not had a problem. I read this article by the manufacturers that states the HDI can cope with it.
www.psa-peugeot-citroen.com/en/psa_espace/press_re...9
No one suggested it in the forum but methylated spirits are commonly used in conjunction with adding veg oil. It reduces the viscosity of the oil. It's also usual to install some way of preheating the oil.
I'm sure all these words are no comfort since your horrible experience!
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That press release is eighteen months old, and it states:
"its diesels can run on up to a 30 % vegetable oil methylester/diesel blend"
That is not the same as a bottle of Mazola, or whatever her in the kitchen buys.
Then again, it's not my car!
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vegetable oil methylester
That is not the same as a bottle of Mazola, or whatever her in the kitchen buys.
Quite. The methylester bit means biodiesel john, not vegetable oil.
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If you must put other oils in your diesel,put it in with the engine running and then take it for a long drive to get the oils mixed in with the fuel.
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im reliably informed that garages in scandanavia have bioderv pumps on the forecourts, so even that is to be avoided?
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