probably of no relevance here but i was in a car last week going for its mot and i left the indicator on,lots of modern cars you neither see or hear the bleeper but i think the real reason was that i was concentrating on doing 30mph because on the stretch of road i was on there are 5 cameras in one mile,a woman nearly pulled out in front of me because of the flashing indicator and to be honest i would have put my hands up and said my fault if she had indeed pulled out.
i must add i never depend on other peoples indicators ever.
my opinion after reading all the evidence is Que was right to say 100% innocent on this occasion just as drefus was but with mitigating circumstances
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Have read some pretty laughable comments on this thread-can't believe how 'words fail me' and such like can be used.
I mean, seriously, if you were trying to join a fast road from a slower road and you saw a car signalling left, but not slowing down, you didn't see the indicator come on and, crucially, there IS NO EXIT for them to possibly be indicating to take would you even pull out? No competent driver would.
A driver could be displaying a false signal for all manner of reasons-left on accidentally being the most likely one, but it could be an electrical fault. About the only time I could have any sympathy or award any of the blame onto the 'indicating' driver would be if the person waiting at the junction had seen the indicator come on, sees the car slow right down and possibly begins to turn, and then aborts and speeds straight on.
Any driver pulling out in front of a car that is apparently signalling to turn before they get to them had better be certain they are turning, or certain that they will clear the car regardless of whether it turns or not.
If this had happened to me as the OP I would have fought this to the end and morally I would not feel obliged to take any of the blame. I am quite pleased in fact the OP won.
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Don't think anyone is trying to say that the OP is fully to blame for this accident, i for one have gone merrily down the road with flashers going, but the OP did come onto an open forum, and stated that his indicator was on and then accepts no liability in the resulting accident.
This to me is unreasonable, it obviously isn't unreasonable to some.
But i'm not perfect so thank goodness for the diffences between us all.
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Of course no one is trying to say the OP is fully to blame. I am arguing the case that the OP is fully not to blame, both legally and morally.
An indication is just that-an indication. It states as much in the highway code.
You have to make your own calls in this life, particularly when driving. I fail to see how the driver who caused the crash can be anything but 100% responsible-if it were me on the opposite side to the OP I would feel a bit peeved probably, but still to blame.
Jarring as it is when someone gives a false signal, for whatever reason, a competent driver should and will only use an indication as just that, far more important to take into account the indicating cars speed, posistion, road layout.
For example, if anyone else agrees, at most roundabouts in the UK judging probable actions based on observations of speed and position is at least 90% of making safe and smooth progress over roundabouts-if you went by indication only you would spend half your time stopping uneccessarily and the other half of the time pulling out to screeching brakes and blaring horns. I would NEVER pull out in front a vehicle whose speed I judged to be a collision course REGARDLESS of what signal it was giving, if I couldn't judge it's speed or wasn't SURE I would STAY PUT and if I did misjudge it and cause an accident I would consider myself wholly responsible.
Not trying to deny anyone else a right to an opinion, just offering mine. This is a subject I happen to feel quite strongly about's all.
Ta
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Well thats one thing we'll disagree on CP, the way many drivers position themselves whilst using roundabouts with or without indicators would give mystic meg a hard time trying to predict where theyre going.
I'll give you a small example, i'm in a loaded truck with bless its heart helltronic gearbox (useless in all counts), so pulling away performance laughable.
Turning right at a roundabout where the road i'm turning onto is a dual cariiageway, 3 cars coming up the road from the right, all going fairly quickly first 2 cars no indicators turn left..typical ignorant technique, 3rd car indicating left and as i start to pull out is in fact going straight on, luckily my snail like take up means no probs for me to stop again.
But if an accident had resulted, i would have been totally to blame.
Now the way you would have it if we all waited for evry driver to actually commit to a manoeuver before we started ours the roads would come to a standstill in not time.
I think all of us have to take responsibility for our road use, and as you say we have to make our own calls, but that also applies to being responsible for signalling intentions to others.
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On the indication front, I was always told that
"It's an indication - not a promise"
Coat being fetched....
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I'm still standing by my original point, but I do see where you are coming from. But then the situation you describe is somewhat different-of course if you are driving an extremely slow vehicle then you do you have to rely at times on allowances from other road users, more so than you would in a car of 'average' performance or above.
But in the situation you describe the same rules still apply-if you can't be sure what a car is doing, you don't go-you HAVE to wait for a gap. If you are driving a very slow vehicle then it is likely that you start your manoeuvre when the way is clear but a vehicle will appear after you have committed to go, that's a different situation. If a junction/roundabout is too busy to enter safely you must wait however long it takes; I understand real world driving and I know how the game is played, but every time you rely purely on the indication a vehicle is giving to decide to go you are taking a risk, you do it because it's a worthwhile risk.
How can it be any simpler? If you commit to a manoeuvre on the basis of a vehicles indication, but their intention is not what you believed it to be and you cause an accident, you misjudged the situation and it is your fault-you either ignored your doubts about the situation or were incapable of assessing the situation correctly.
Yeah it's a real pain when people give misleading or no signals (the left turn situation you mentioned is common and very annoying I agree) but that's the way it is.
If I flashed you out of a side junction (you want to turn right) because I am stopped and it is my intention to let you pull across my path and safely wait until there is a gap in traffic from your left to complete your turn, but you assume I am saying it is safe in both directions and you stream into traffic from the left and cause an accident, whose fault is it?
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If I flashed you out of a side junction (you want to turn right) because I am stopped and it is my intention to let you pull across my path and safely wait until there is a gap in traffic from your left to complete your turn but you assume I am saying it is safe in both directions and you stream into traffic from the left and cause an accident whose fault is it?
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Well for one thing i wouldn't be relying on anyone else's judgement that the road was clear, plus unless the highway code has changed, the fact you flashed your lights was to let me know of your presence and to make sure i didn't get in your way as you were coming through, not to let me out, which is the way we usually do things.
Were getting away from the point, which is and we will obviously disagree that i think that in the accident the OP had he did bear some moral blame for the incident, if not a legal responsibility, and sorry OP but i do believe you should have accepted partial blame under the circumstances, as without you indicating there was a negligible chance the other driver would have pulled out, this in no way exonerates him from his responsibilities by the way.
But its a real world and with roads ever more crowded we have to take our opportunities to go when we can.
If i had a similar accident and i had been indicating a turn by error, then i would feel partially responsible for the prang.
Lets hope you or i don't have a bump, we could cause the world's biggest jam whilst sorting out the ethics let alone the legal responsibilities.
Anyone else have any input, are CP and i both right/wrong, whats the general feeling.
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GB totally with you on this one as per my original post. The driver that pulled out was to blame, but the OP also was partly (to a lesser degree) at fault. Some might say that he was driving without due care if he had his indicators on by mistake?
If there were no indicators on, guy would not have pulled out from the side.
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2007 Seat Altea XL 2.0 TDI (140) Stylance
2005 Skoda Fabia vrS
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