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As PU alluded, everything gets very hazy at airports (and ports) these days - surprised she wasn't armed and threatening to shoot you!
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I'd produce, I doubt whether there are, but there may be special powers at Airports.
"what on earth was she playing at, threatening me with one and letting me sweat for 15 minutes while she did everything else?"
Precisely that probably. Nothing wrong with a bit of worry ! :-) It would almost certainly have been a 3 pointer had it been a Police Officer.
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What powers do PCSOs have?
The powers available to PCSOs vary from force to force. In the West Midlands Police their powers are limited but, for example, they can:
? Confiscate alcohol and tobacco
? Issue fixed penalty tickets for some minor offences
? Remove abandoned vehicles
? Require the name and address of anyone behaving anti-socially
? Carry out road checks (with a constable)
Courtesy of West Mids Police Website. See its a "for example". Excellently vague. Ironically on the same page as their Specials, an honourable, ancient and very British way for a citizen to Police their own community - Ironic in the sense these guys have the full range of powers and do it for nothing whilst PCSOs are paid almost as much as bottom rung Officers and have very limited almost surreal powers. Posted without prejudice to some of the PCSOs I know who work hard and are committed to their communities but with total prejudice to the department who thought them up and the consequent mishandling.
22.06
Laughed like a drain - been to their recruiting website (not that I'm thinking of a second career) The first qualification is and I quote "The applicant must be 16 years of age.." So that makes it a rather shallow recruiting pool. I wish I was a Moderator there !
Edited by Pugugly {P} on 16/10/2007 at 23:09
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"The applicant must be 16 years of age.."
Well you can have another laugh.
www.dorset.police.uk/careers/pcso/pcsofaq.shtml
"There is no minimum age to become a PCSO". You qualify on age the minute you are born.
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And have proficient English I note.
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"And have proficient English I note."
That rules out the copywriter of the West Midlands Police web site, and perhaps 90% or more of the native population of the UK.
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PU
Whilst I appreciate that a Police Traffic WARDEN could issue FPN's for Non Endorseable traffic/parking offences , they did have the the power to ask name and address and produce Driving Licence. (Functions of Traffic Wardens (Amendment ) Order 1986.)
I also understood that under decriminalisation of waiting/parking restrictions, their role was handed over to LA provide Civilian Enforcement Officers (Road Traffic Act 1991) who do not have the power to see documents or even demand name and address. All they can issue are Penalty Charge Notices So has been the slow demise of the Police Traffic Warden.
But hallilooyah enter the Police Community Support Officer that looks like a real Plod but inside that dayglo yellow has very limited powers and these are outlined at Police Reform Act 2002 Schedule 5 and The Police Reform Act 2002 (Standard Powers and Duties of Community Support Officers) Order 2007 (inforce 1.12.07). Non of these powers I can see give the authority to do what has been reported. I do understand that there is a power of the Chief Constable to accredite his plastic troops with certain powers and it may be this has been the case because PRA does not authorise in detail that which took place as far as I can see.
In view of the very unprofessional manner the poster was dealt with I would be mindful to write to the Chief Constable (without rancour or insulting terms) as to what took place in relation to manner dealt with and the errors made on the FPN , query the power to issue the FPN and suggest that this may be a suitable case for the FPN to be withdrawn.
Obviously if the person issuing the ticket had the logo on his back/shoulder tabs that they were a Traffic Warden then all was in order apart from manner and mistakes on the ticket.
We are sure that it wasn't a CEO employed by Birmingham Airport Authority ?????(yellow coat all look the same)
dvd
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A few posts gone from this thread (and a few others that got caught in the deleting process).
Keep it to motoring, or the original question please.
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dvd...
Many thanks for your comments... It was definately a PCSO who accosted me... She had a blue 'PCSO' badge on her cap and also filled in her details on the producer as PCSO **** ##########, Solihull
njg
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Whoops... ran out of time whilst editing...
I meant to add that I don't actually dispute the FPN which appears to be filled in correctly, qouteing an offence of 151 Obstruction of a zebra crossing.
My points were....
a) The manner in which I was dealt with was bordering on unacceptable, not only in my opinion but also in that of my passenger who happened to be a senior manager of a world wide blue chip company, and
b) What is my best course of action with the 'producer' considering the various mistakes/ommisions , not least the fact that it doesn't specify where exactly I am supposed to 'produce'....
In actual fact, all the parking and enforcement at BHX has been farmed out to NCP meaning it is now impossible to pick up or drop off anyone within the airport boundary without paying a minimum charge ( or risk getting collared by an overly aggresive PCSO)
Yours, njg
Edited by njgleeds on 17/10/2007 at 22:20
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The requirements under Road Traffic Act 1988 S 164 ( 165 Ins) are that a driver of a vehicle on a road (and certain others) must, on being so required by a constable, produce his licence for examination,
If a person required to produce a licence to a constable fails to do so he is, guilty of an offence.
But, in proceedings against any person for the offence of failing to produce a licence it shall be a defence for him to show that?
(a) within seven days after the production of his licence was required he produced it in person at a police station that was specified by him at the time its production was required.
Firstly there is no requirement under the Act that they must issue a Form Called HO/RT/1 (my day - believed something MSG now) which is nicknamed 'a producer' which will contain date and time, personal /vehicle details and nominated Police Station.
If the poster verbally stated a Police Station at the time and later produces then that is that. Some may claim a Nick Freeman get out if the Police Station was only mentioned by the PSCO but to me that is only relevant to ones defence. The offence has been committed when first approached and asked to produce and could not.
At the moment I am still unhappy under the circs described that PSCO have the power described.
I applaud the fact that the Poster realises that in the spirit of the law he has committed an offence and wishes atonement by paying.
If, it is considered that a letter be sent as I stated then take particular care that matters are concluded within 28 days of issue of the FPN otherwise they can take the matter to Court.
There is no information in the post that the Traffic Regulation Order or signage is defective on which to mount a ddfence if it dio go to Court.
dvd
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Hi dvd...
Firstly, the PCSO only asked for my Hackney carriage badge and proceeded to carry that around the vehicle with her whilst she completed her checks. At no time did she ask to see my DVLA licence, which I actually had in my hand.
Secondly, I never stated any particular police station; I asked her twice where I should produce the documents and was ignored on both occasions.
Incidentally, it was indeed a HO/RT/1....
Yours, njg
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Some may object to the suggestion, but I'd go to my local police station with all my docs and produce. You lose nothing - and might save yourself a load of hassle.
You were in the wrong, as you admit. I would suggest that 15 minutes of sweating was a greater threat/penalty than the £30 - as PCSO probably knew. It's a standard technique of plod, and to my mind it works pretty well. I bet you don't stop on that zebra crossing ever again... and after all if everybody stopped on every zebra crossing there would be no traffic flow, ever!
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So she gave you an RT/1 for all three.
Does this qualify as a 'request' to see you docs.
Arguable both ways.
If tasked she will no doubt confirm the request verbally which is why she gave the RT/1
As stated above -its been given so visit the Plodshop and produce. At the same time ask to speak to a supervisory Officer and discuss whether PSCO has the power to request. Just spoken to Ploddaughter who tells me it will all depend accrediation by the Chief Constable.
dvd
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PS.
Forgot to mention - under the law it is you that has to elect the Police Station not the PSCO.
dvd
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My advice is produce them.
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Hi everyone... Many thanks for your comments/advice
"You were in the wrong, as you admit. I would suggest that 15 minutes of sweating was a greater threat/penalty than the £30 - as PCSO probably knew. It's a standard technique of plod, and to my mind it works pretty well....Mapmaker"
In actual fact I got the £30 too... My issue was with her threatening to give me an endorsable FPN when she had no authority to do so.
"If tasked she will no doubt confirm the request verbally which is why she gave the RT/1... dvd"
No doubt, even though my passenger would be willing to testify that she didn't...
To be honest though, I really can't be bothered to make a stand.. like you all say It is easier to just produce and shut up. It just rankles me deep down that these people can get away with sloppy procedures etc , but on the other hand I don't think it would have bothered me as much if it was a 'proper' police officer who had made the mistakes... Is that wrong I wonder??
njg
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Do some research, then make a formal complaint against the officer in question, remember they are civilians, they have no rights as police officers, although they have been given powers to question people but only if they feel an offence has or about to be committed but then they must also inform the station where they are based. basically plastic police. without a signature u may aswell not go to police station and argue the fact that you were even there.
snipquote
Edited by Pugugly {P} on 18/10/2007 at 20:38
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go to a convenient police station, explain briefly your circs re not knowing where to produce...they won't want to know, because A, they'll be extremely busy and B, it will be crewed by the most junior cop or a civilian who will only stick to the rules.
explain that you've sought advice from an experienced officer and his advice is for you to produce to a station...and that Station Officer examine your docs, then date stamp (with force/station crest thereon) a piece of memo pad and sign it confirming you attended and your docs were correct.
then if PCSO stroppy pants drops you in it later, you can easily prove, that within 7 days you did attend a police station with all your docs but no one was interested because she didn't do her job properly and fill in the forms correctly.
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Many thanks... I'm away north for a week in the morning so I'll call into the local police station whilst I'm up there and do as you say, westpig.
njg
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Surely PCSO 'Stoppy Pants' has put their ID number on the Producer. In which case wherever the documents are taken will be able to do a quick check on their IT system, find out where 'Stroppy pants' is based and stick the HO/RT2 in the internal mail. Thats providing its the same Force area.
As an aside I discussed this with one of my Student Officers who has come over to the Dark Side from PCSO land. He stated that our PCSOs could deal with both endorsable and non-endorsable tickets for static offences and likewise could give producers as they were given Traffic Warden powers after the yellow rats were privatised. Most of the Traffic Wardens transferred to the PCSOs and wear a little badge stating 'Traffic'.
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Fullchat
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