Hi guys.
I don't know if anyone knows anything about Grey-imports and/or emissions diagostics can help with this !
My 1995 Celica GT Convertible has just failed its MOT on the emissions test ....
The car is Jap-spec, and has the 175Bhp GT engine (but NOT a turbo) (I think the engine code is 3S-GE)
I shall give you a run down of the saga I have been on today.
Failed this morning as CO levels way too high (7.8% CO) and lambda value also way out.
MOT tester suggested taking to a diagnostic place. They were too busy to run a full check, but ran a fault-code reader onit, which revealed just the coolant sensor returning "out of range values". The sensor apparently had dirty contacts, so was cleaned and WD-40'd and seemed to be working OK after this, and the fault was reset.
The diagnostic chap then ran it on his emission-tester, but the CO was still very high and lambda still way out.
He suggested it was probably the lambda sensor, especially as he had replaced quite a few toyota ones in recent times.
AS he wasn't able to give any time, I then found a local independent Toyota/Lexus specialist, who checked the fault codes, and said there were none at all registered.
They suggested that as Jap spec cars are designed for 100RON petrol, and the tank was empty, I try refilling with Shell V - Power, give it a good caning on the dual-carriageway, and take it back to be restested, as the engines don't like our 95RON and they don't run as well.
I did this, and on re-test it still failed, but this time the Lambda reading was "very good" but the CO was still at 1.1% at fast idle (Limit is 0.3%)
I went back to the specialist and they suggested that the catalyst and lambda sensor might both be working sub-optimaly and combining to give the high CO reading. Also may have wrong spark-plugs fitted.
They said running on 95 RON petrol over here can cause these problems, and these cars should be run on 97 Super-unleaded to stop this happening.
It is booked in to have both Lambda sensor and catalyst replaced........
I've owned the car approx 1year, it was imported early 2006 as far as I am aware, and was purchased with a new MOT. It has done 60,000 miles approx (90,000km),and I have only done about 2000miles (3000km) in the last 12months - it has spent a lot of time standing, but has been kept under cover, so not out in the wet.
The air-filter is very new, the oil quite clean, and it runs very well (goes like poo {edit by DD, next time I delete all of the post} off the proverbial)
I would like to know :
(A) IS the diagnosis of lambda/catalyst correct, or could it be just one of these components, or someting else ?
(B) Can using 95RON petrol really cause these problems, - I could understand it may give sub-optimal performance, but actual damage to sensors/catalysts ?
(C) Will using 97 super-unleaded in future stop this happening ? I really don't want this hassle in future years .
(D) will intermittent and low use cause/contribute to this problem too ?
MAny thanks in advance for some help with this potentially expensive problem !
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S-S
(E) Has it actually got anything inside the cat housing?
Many quick imports have been "de-catted" to improve performance. Is there a line of weld round the cat?
You diagnostics guys don't seem very on the ball. It should be easy to watch the oxygen sensor's action and see if it's working correctly. [Assuming that they've actually got a scanner that can run live data on these.....]
If the sensor is switching; there's no exhaust leaks and the system has entered closed-loop, then it's a fair bet that the cat is gone. A quick check with the thermo-laser would have confirmed it.
Certainly worth running on 97 or 99; it should make a noticable difference.
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does it have a map on it?
if so check this and also the pipes for oil contamination
i personally would change the cat as a last resort due to cost
the readout for the lambda should actually tell you if its in permitted parameters and wether its actually working or not
check spark plugs for excessive gap/worn
check air filter
change oil
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2000miles in a year! a good long hard spank may clean the cat up if its got one. If you can get hold of a infra red temp probe check the temp by the in & out pipe on the cat. Run it up hot 1st. 3000rpm for 5mins & check temp on pipes imediatley before & after cat, if there is no difference the cats missing.
I trust your air filter is a paper one & not an oil impregnated one? had some emission issues with those in the past.
Have you started it frequentley during its standing, if so the oil could be petrol contaminated.
With the way the emissions have reduced from being so high my 1st sugestion could be the answer. take care
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I too wondered about the way the CO emissions had come down from over 7% to just over 1%...
I had given it a good hard drive of nearly 15miles at 60/70mphwith the V-power petrol in it.
I kept the overdrive off (it is auto) so the revs were high, about 3000rpm for most of the driving, so I wonder if theres any more than can be gained by driving it hard.
although it has only 2000 miles last year, that is all long-journeys - ie. down to the coast, or mostly A fastish road stuff, so its never been used for short journeys or low speed stop-start round-town work - is this likely to have pink fluffy diced the cat or sensor up ?
I think the place it is going to have some kind of laptop-based system, so I presume they will be able to take it out driving and see whats going on realtime.
I am an ex-research chemist, so not completely "green" when it comes to technical stuff, but I'm afraid I'm in peoples hands with this one as I don't have the equipment or specialist knowledge, but I do understand the principles (I think ?) !!!
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some very good answers here, i would also think twice before jumping in and buying cat etc,
your oil may look "clean" but its highly likely to be petrol contaminated as per 12 month 2,00 mile.
the cat removed is also a excellent suggestion.
coming down from 7 to 1 in a short blast strongly suggests to me a good service and warm up would probably get you your pass.
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Many Jap imports don't have a restricted filler and at some time in their life the wrong fuel has been used which seriously damages the cat;some re-action will return with the use of unleaded.
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Also,Jap home market cats are not as good as export ones-If I remember rightly their home market fuel is "zero-lead or lead-free";European "unleaded" is not totally free of lead-0.013% springs to mind-the difference is that no lead is added to Euro fuel whilst zero-lead has the lead chemically removed.Also there is no equivalent to the EU engine performance test for Jap home-market vehicles so the engine performance figures quoted there tend to be "imaginative".
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thanks for the info so far lads !
SO if there is lead in UK petrol, and the jap cats are not as good, then this implies that in 12 months I will be back to the same situation again ?
If this specialist replaces the cat, will it get a new jap cat or an EU cat ? Will the eu cat fit a jap-spec car, or can they only fit another jap one - which does indeed imply I will have the same bill again in 12months....
I'm the 1st UK owner of the car, and I've been using normal 95 unleaded ( I wasn't told any different) certainly haven't put any 4star or LRP in it.....
There seem to be an awful ot of "uncontrolled variables" in this ......
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3,000 rpm is not hard driving;4,500-5,500 may be.Only you can find out what level of cat. will be fitted.
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Have you been out & spanked it hard up Rigate hill on the M25 at 4500-5000rpm to burn the impurities out the cat. I would change the oil and give it a hard run. I have had several that have been reluctant but succseed in the end with a good thrash & no parts
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Hi,
It seems that you need to:
a: change the plugs
b: change the air filter
c: change oil and filter
Once thats done, take it for an 'italian tune up' for at least 15 miles prior to MOT.
I would put money on it passing - it never failed for me with our old Rover 100 which did about 1500 miles per year.
--
These are the views of Robin the Technician with 35 years in the trade. I fix, therefore I am...
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SPeaking to toyota UK they reckonned probabaly either the plugs or clogged injector rather than sensor/cat so try some fuel treatment. first ...
I will get the gaarage to check/change these things when it goes in next week, although I did look at the air-filter and it is virtually brand-new, so not that causing the prob.
BUT ALSO :-
Managed to borrow a neighbours portable COMeter, albeit it is a little crude compared to the garage ones....
So thought I would try testing it before and after adding Wynns fuel treatment.
I took if out for a good drive, then tested it with this CO meter.
Got really low readings, 0.5 or down to zero at idle, similar at fast idle.
i thought "great", its looking promising I'lll try it after the fuel treatment.
Added the treatment, did a good hard "spank " as you guys suggested for 15miles
Rechecked it w ith tthis meter, and the readins are now back at 7 to 8% CO which they were before I put inthe 99 SUper - V unleaded and the first really hard drive etc....
SO either there is contamination in the oil, plugs are off, or there is something electronic intermittantly playing up, as these CO readings are going up and down over a very big range....... which would suggest a malfunctionning component ?
I would have thought containation in the oil/clogged injector/off plugs would give a more consistent reading, or one that gradually improved as the carp got burnt off with these hard runs I've been giving it.
But we will see when the garage gets it next week......
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if you read post no3 i told you to check the map
this is the first port of call seing as you have a co reading of 7
it will have a pipe from the inlet manifold going to it and three electric wires
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same as a maf
There is a sensor which monitors the amount of air being drawn into the engine. The ecu uses this measurement to work out how much fuel to inject. Obviously if the sensor starts to fail, then the mixture is all over the shop - as is yours.
cant easily test them always because as they fail they can seem ok to the ecu.
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MAF = Mass AirFlow Sensor
MAP = Manifold Absolute Pressure
Two entirely different ways of measuring the air going into the engine;MAF measures the airflow in one of two ways;the older types by measuring the deflection of a spring-loaded flap sucked open by the air consumed by the engine;later types were "hot-wire"-a heated wire being cooled by the air being drawn over it.More airflow=greater cooling.
MAP estimated the air needs of the engine by measuring the depression in the inlet manifold and is seen as old-not particularly good technology-most "up-to-date" calibrations use "hot-wire".
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I should add that MAP sensors can be affected by fuel in the pipe from the manifold affecting the signal or the pipe itself going soft and affecting the signal or also the actual sensor in the MAP being fouled by fuel.
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Your car will have the MAP sensor - Toyota ditched the AFM in 1994 when they moved the 3S-GE from 150ish to 173bh/p.
My Toyota has the 3S-GTE, and luckily I get the non-cat loophole.
Toyotas have an engine diagnostic port, and it's easy to check error codes yourself by bridging the t1 and te1 terminals with a paperclip.
Then count the flashes of the orange engine check light. Rapid flashing = no codes. Google Toyota diagnostic for a full list and how to.
Note: pulling the fuse or disconnecting the battery will wipe any codes. But then stored codes should light up the engine check light anyway.
Can't really add stuff other than what's been mentioned above though.
www.cheaptoyotaparts.co.uk are in Sutton, Surrey and might be able to help you out with new parts. Toyota can be a bit expensive, so maybe toyota specialists such as fensport might be good for oe parts.
Finally, the 3S service centre, in Hook (off the M3) know their 3S engines very well. Might be convenient if you're in west surrey?
hth
Ian
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I have imported loads of cars from Japan,MOTed and SVAed them,all you may need is a new lambda sensor and a good blast with optimax or the like,this will bring the readings back into range.I have done this many times and never had to replace a cat.
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I had a 1996 Subaru STI RA import and that had the same problems and no matter what I did it still failed its MOT.
What I found as advised by a garage who reguarly tested Scoobies to work, was (If yours has one) to remove any non-standard exhaust or air filter system and fit the proper system throughout. Because the mapping is done for this not a retro system. And as you've done use the highest octane you can get even if needed some octane booster too. Once its passed its test, you can revert back to your non-standard system.
Hope thats of any use.
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well Its been "seen to ", and here was the verdict....
New Lambda probe brought the emissions right down, but not enough to pass, a new Cat then fitted and its sailed through.
I'm told if the lambda had been malfunctionning for a while, the extremely rich runing can damage the cat.... dunno if that is true or not, but has solved the problem (I hope).
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hi Surrey,
just been reading through your file... i had a moment or two and some of the posts on this site are very topical. However, this time i felt compelled to register. I dont like to get drawn into debates about this that and the other. However... needs must. I wont give you my background fully but suffice it to say that I can answer a question or two.
check out these three things... they will reduce or prevent you EVER having to fit a new cat lambda sensor and all those other ECU's 'AGGGGH !!! HELP YOU ARE KILLING ME' issues.
Cars are brilliantly well developed but dont forget they are built by people with 'risk' in mind... ie how long will it last before it fails. trust me.
you need to look into the WORLD FUEL CHARTER... dont read it all... its as boring as sin but if you are in a need to know situation.. its worth the knowing. Page 28 is what you want to check into read about PEA - PolyEtherAmine
visit this www.bgpowerflow.co.uk
www.bgfindashop.com/locator/index.php - check the video. I have a PDF file which I obtained re 44k... when East Anglia/Norfolk had that fuel issue damaging 02 sensors. Very special stuff.
but make up your own mind and tell others what you find.
I am watching this one with interest... somebody is paying attention and this is what you need from now. look after the 'systems' individually as required....The manufacturers DONT.
I sent an email to them... there site is being updated but i got a response.. I was just checking to see if there was someone in. :-)
Fact... there are direct connections with them globally with Toyota, Renault, Volvo, Porsche, VW, Audi, Honda, Mitsubishi, Mercedes.... and others to a lesser degree i believe Merc even have their products listed on their intranet.
Quietly going about their business and new to the uk it seems.
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Glad to hear you got ot fixed, out of interest do you polish your car to the hilt & use silicon spay around the grill or under the bonnet? are you aware this destroys the lambda sensors. Yours may have just got old & suffered from a lack of being taken out for an Italian but beware of silicon sprays.
Regards
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Good Advice Doc.
Especially if the car is running whilst you are polishing. Nice to see someone think out of the box. The measurements are critical and the tolerances minimal... it doesnt take much of an issue before the ECU (clever little thing) starts to compensate for poor readings.
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while i applaud the thinking, ive got to say that when squirting aerosol silicon inside cars i wear a particle mask and this stops my lungs clogging up
would not the air filter under bonnet not do the same thing?
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Most lambda sensors operate as a galvanic cell with an atmospheric reference on the "outside" of the sensor. Therefore using cleaning/polishing substances around the lambda sensor can damage it. Cleaning underbonnet with Gunk is a good way of damaging a lambda sensor, for example. Antifreeze is another good substance for wrecking sensors. A HG failure will often take out the lambda sensor as well...
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thanks for that
shocked of yorkshire--------
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And so you should but think about what you said...A particle mask. exactly. So why not use an less expensive air filter instead of a pollen filter? try using a 'damp start' type product before an air filter... see what happens. The air filter is there to prevent 'larger particles and debris which have been sucked in by the air intake.
think of the stoichiometric ratio.14.7 oz of air reqd for 1 oz of gasoline. thats 9-10 THOUSAND GALLONS of air for every gallon of gas. Its important for the air to flow with as little restriction as possible.
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wasn't aware of the problem with silicone products....
Haven't used any on it anyway (have precious little time to drive it let alone polish !!!)
Just out of intetrest how do these sensors sense the oxygen levels ?
I am a chemistry teacher, but haven't time to look this up.......
obviously they use O2 in the outside air (21% approx) as a reference but whats in the tip oif the electrode to cause a voltage change when the o2 levels change ?
What is it that happens when they "wear out" ? and what is the reason toyota seem to have a problem with theirs, especially on this engine ?
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Well Mr Scientist I'm only a vehicle technitian but here goes: more than one type of sensor but they work on the basis of a chemical reaction! one type is called a Zirconia type and has Zirconium dioxide which when hot responds to the presence or absence of oxygen creating a rapidly responding voltage between .2 & .8 of a volt this then transponds to the ECM which can control the mixture. Another type is a titanium with titanim oxide & works on the same principle. As they get old they dont respond to voltage changes and there switching time becomes slower & slower thus increasing fuel consumption./ As they only work when hot most are now heated ( called HEGO sesors) heated oxegen sensors and are more accurate. they need to work at between 330 & 800c.
Hear endeth the lesson. The Doc
DW40 & silicon sealents also can destroy a sensor as well!
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Standard Zironia type is in effect a galvanic cell which uses oxygen as the "electrolyte". Difference in O2 conc. either side of the sensor (exhaust and atmosphere) causes a voltage to be developed.
The less common Titania type - titanium dioxide becomes semiconducting at high temp and its conductivity varies with oxygen concentration (oxygen permeating the sensor and acting as the charge-carrier). It also keeps your teeth white!
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