When i learned to drive performance cars were able to do a ton whilst the rest of dreamed or frightened ourselves in souped up Escorts etc.
It would seem that any car these days is well capable of speeds exceeding 100 mph whilst human and especially teenage evolution in road skills has stayed the same.
Rather than all of us paying ultra high premiums that reflect the costs of said teenagers wrapping their performance pram around the local oak tree, why not make all new and learner drivers drive a low perfomance car ?.
How about retooling for the dear old Moggy Minor with a few modern safety additions but no performance additions ?.
These cars would recognisable at a glance especially if a uniform colour and would not be capable of any high speed nonsence.
There then could be a set insurance fee for the newbys and the rest of us would watch the insurance companies come up with another reason to keep premiums high.
What do you lot think ??.
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A Morris Minor had first class handling.
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A Morris Minor had first class handling.
That's not how I remember them!
Aside from that, don't most accidents happen at sub 70mph? My old Morris (throbbing 1098cc because it was a 1967 model) would do more than that.
You'd still be able to do 50mph in town, or 60mph around a 30mph bend.
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>>That's not how I remember them!>>
I had the 1098 big rear window model (1960) for four years (first car) and I could keep up on country roads with a pal who had a Mini Cooper 1275 fully souped up and equipped for autocross racing...:-)
In the winter, if it snowed, I used to go out on to the deserted coast road for skidding practice, get up to about 40-50mph and flick the wheel over. Invariably another flick of the steering wheel immediately had it in a straight line.
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I had the 1098 big rear window model (1960) for four years (first car) and I could keep up on country roads with a pal who had a Mini Cooper 1275 fully souped up and equipped for autocross racing...:-)
I think that's more to do with the driver than the car ;-)
Of course both would be soundly thrashed by a modern 1 litre Corsa, who'd be going just as fast but on about 20% of the driver effort
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>>I think that's more to do with the driver than the car ;-)>>
Not really - he was actually quite impressed. Won plenty of autocross races as well.
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If their 0 to 60 time is set to about the same speed it takes a teenager to be aware of the problem and then react , say, an hour then that part of the problem is sorted out.
I mean low performance in speed and power, also to make it more period only valve radios with maybe a concession to 8 track but only 2 watt speakers..
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>>about the same speed it takes a teenager to be aware of the problem and then react , say, an hour >>
I'll lay a pound to a penny that their reactions are vastly superior to yours...:-)
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Not first thing in the morning when they are sleeping off wherever they were till the early hours before.
Anyway is there not some research somewhere that says teenagers brains are remapping and they cannot handle some situations very well.
Also when i think that that R.A.F. jet that just flew over my head by ten feet is being flown by someone who has never heard of the Human League let alone T Rex ,i feel old.
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I'll lay a pound to a penny that their reactions are vastly superior to yours...:-)
Having fast reactions is all well and good provided you know what the best course of actions is in the prevailing circumstances, and this is where young inexperienced drivers fall down.
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L\'escargot.
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why not make all new and learner drivers drive a low perfomance car ?
This idea has, of course, been used for new and learner motorcyclists for quite some time.
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Reliant Robins would be better, I suspect, good teachers of car control.
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Can't really agree oilrag. All it will do is impose low cornering speeds. Young learner drivers will be chafing for the day they get their hands on a four-wheeler so that they can - Voila! - understeer into the greenery on the first wet slippery autumn bend.
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''Reliant Robins would be better, I suspect, good teachers of car control.''
will also improve your sense of observation when looking out for mr Bean in his mini
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You won't find me saying a good word for the dreadful Moggie. As for good handling, it evidently needed more skill than I posessed to unearth its good qualities.
The idea has some merit, a bit like restricting motorcycle performance for new riders. It would never get past the emissions regs though. Then you might as well have a different starting point, like making all new drivers serve an apprenticeship on motorcycles to teach them about grip and observation, among other things.
Hawkeye
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Stranger in a strange land
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"A Morris Minor had first class handling."
It didn't, I owned two 1098 engined ones, put it lke this I developed a taste for RWD with them and taught me a a lot about the limitations of car control at a pretty low speed ! Any "breathed! on Mini could get away from them anywhere, more like superior handling skills.......crossply skiny tyres ......brrrrrrr. !
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"A Morris Minor had first class handling."
I think a better description would be that 'it had very predictable handling'. However compared with everything else that was about in the 50s & early 60s it was certainly better than any of the Fords and Vauhalls of the same age. My experience (of about 6 in total) of models from 918cc upto 1500cc versions was very similar to an earlier poster. With RWD and out in the wide open spaces on snow there was wonderful fun to be had.
Before anybody starts a reply, "they didnt make.....", well I did! It was a Riley 1.5 BMC B engined beast. Possibly a little nose heavy, but when equipped with ARB, lowered suspension, bigger brakes it handled reasonably well and stopped. Never did make up the anti tramp bars and now regret not pursuing my idea of putting in a 1275cc fwd unit from a MG 1300. For those who dont know, the original Issigonni design was for a fwd version, protoypes were made I believe (including and aircooled design) but I have never seen photographic evidence. I recently saw modern one constructed around a BLMC 1300 fwd unit with a steel spaceframe as the front end of a convertible. Sorry getting away from the original subject
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pmh (was peter)
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good idea, put them all in a 1 litre micra. get a years no claims, move up to 1.3and so on.
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Or just restirct them on BHP, somewhere around 35 bhp and 900cc for instance.
It would have to be this draconian as anything more than that has a reasonable turn of speed if thrashed. It might take them longer to get where they are going and they may not be able to overtake much, but that wont do them any harm at all.
This should be inforce for the first 5 years of driving so they have plenty of time to get over their need for speed, and also, if the period is long enough, it would give car makers a big enough market to support making the cars to suit the rules, although Im sure many small engined cars could simply be de-tuned to meet new regs.
This idea that new drivers are somehow capable of driving an Impreza STi just because the reverse parked a Micra and drove like a vicar for an hour or so to pass their test is simply ridiculous and the law should start reflecting this.
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Thank you, that is exactly my point.
When they pass their test they can drive a car (if they can afford to insure it) with performance unheard of when i was learning.
All the government does is talk about harder tests.
Well seeing how well the chavmobiles are driven around here the test is not that offputting or difficult, same with the bike test for provisional bikers , i nearly wiped out one who saw some friends and turned right across my path.
It does not matter how hard the tests are and how expensive the insurance is they are still teenagers and will do what teenagers have always done i.e. show off and show their lack of experience whilst thinking they are invicible (as i probably did).
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The most effective way to produce a new driver? The best male young driver I have ever seen was driving a rather snazy open topped sports car which he had built himself with help from his dad. It was built on a old chassis and we watched with interest as it took shape on a wooden form - don't ask me anything technical about it except that it was a sort of kit car and his dad was an engineer. It looked a little like an old MG . He drove impeccably from day one - after all it was very much HIS car.
If you see the Kia thread, then RF junior can get on the road for £3,999 plus a bit of effort!!
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Or just restirct them on BHP, somewhere around 35 bhp and 900cc for instance. >> This should be inforce for the first 5 years of driving so they have plenty of time to get over their need for speed
Not this again... What a load of rubbish.. I'm 24, passed my test 2 years ago and own a 140bhp car. Never ever felt the need to speed. I respect all speed limits.
Yep, teenagers and chavs will speed but why should I suffer because of them?? Can't see myself driving a 35bhp car!!!!? And for the first 5 years of driving??? Get real!
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Not this again... What a load of rubbish.. I'm 24, passed my test 2 years ago and own a 140bhp car. Never ever felt the need to speed. I respect all speed limits. Yep, teenagers and chavs will speed but why should I suffer because of them?? Can't see myself driving a 35bhp car!!!!? And for the first 5 years of driving??? Get real!
Sort of proves the point.
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>> Not this again... What a load of rubbish.. I'm 24, passed >> my test 2 years ago and own a 140bhp car. Never >> ever felt the need to speed. I respect all speed limits. >> Yep, teenagers and chavs will speed but why should I suffer >> because of them?? Can't see myself driving a 35bhp car!!!!? And >> for the first 5 years of driving??? Get real! Sort of proves the point.
Indeed. Seeing the three young lads down my residential cul-de-sac gunning it past parked cars, children playing and elderly people trying to cross the road, you do wonder why any young driver should be restricted... I mean, why shouldnt they hit the rev limiter in a narow residential street? Its their right, yes?
Problem with young drivers is they have a much higher opinion of their driving than anything like reality. Im only 27 and I have been driving 10 years now - the things I did in my first few years of driving would scare the life outta me now and im adult enough to recognise how bad I was, but thats a bit of age and experience for you.
35 bhp isnt dangerously slow as its more than enough to make a car move at the legal limit, simple as.
If it means you have to wait longer at a junction, so be it - my van doesnt have the accelaration of an Evo, so I have to wait longer than an Evo owner does, so what? Wheres the fire? Who is dying that will make that extra minute you save worthwhile?
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Or just restirct them on BHP, somewhere around 35 bhp and 900cc for instance. It would have to be this draconian as anything more than that has a reasonable turn of speed if thrashed. It might take them longer to get where they are going and they may not be able to overtake much
Or they'll still attempt to overtake things but it'll be much more dangerous.
When I was 17 (and had about 35bhp in my car) I remember overtaking lots of things. It teches advanced planning, but otherwise doesn't restrict you from doing stupid things.
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It's training that teenagers need, not restriction to dangerously slow vehicles. I can't imagine how a Minor could be re-engineered to be as safe as modern cars.
Rollcage, bucket seats, harness and a nice Rover V8 are perhaps the best thing to do with a Minor.
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It's training that teenagers need, not restriction to dangerously slow vehicles.
Oh! Just like moterrrrbike laws, then. Dangerously slow? I pooh-pooh your remark.
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">I pooh-pooh your remark.<"
Pooh-pooh to your heart's content. I've never been one to stand between a man and his pooh-poohing. Try riding a restricted 'bike on an NSL road, it's frightening. Best training for any biker is a couple of years offroad to experience the art of crashing with some pain but reduced threat of death.
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I can't say I agree with restricting new drivers. I'm a young driver having passed my test nearly 3 years ago. In that time I've owned a few cars starting with a 95 Pug 106 1.0 bought for a princely sum of £900 the day after I passed my test, and slowly moving up to my Focus Titanium 2.0tdci company car that I have now. It's pretty quick, with a well below 10 second 0-60 and 136bhp. I'm not quite sure what the top speed is but no doubt it's pretty high. Not exactly a hot hatch but not all that far off it.
The nature of my job means I need to drive lots. I run a young consultancy company with clients all over the country, and they need visiting. With these restrictions I couldn't really do this at all. I live in York and commute down to London/Kent/Surrey a couple of days a week, driving down at 4 in the morning. Having to do this in a 35bhp car would kill me!
I did 45000 miles last year and thankfully am on for a bit less this year, somewhere around 30-35. I have never had an accident, other than an unfortunate incident caused by a tyre blowing out on the motorway (on my then 3 week old Focus - not down to maintenance!) - not my fault I'm sure you will all agree. Yes I'm not the slowest driver in the world but I observe town limits and don't speed excessively or dangerously on the motorway. I have excellent observation and awareness of what's happening, particularly again on the motorway where most of my driving occurs.
I know countless other young drivers who drive in a similar fashion. I also know of countless older drivers who drive dangerously. In fact I see them every day I'm out in my car. You can't generalise like this and say all young drivers are dangerous in quick cars! It would be fairer to say that inexperienced drivers are dangerous in quick cars, but not to define experience by years driving. In my 3 years driving I've picked up a lot more experience of different situations and conditions than many people who have been driving for a lot longer. There has to be a better way to define ability and experience than restricting based on time since passing the test.
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I've always been of the opinion that the majority of drivers who began their experiences on the road on two wheels always proved better drivers - mainly due to early appreciation of the effects of different road surfaces coupled with various weather conditions.
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I had an 1100 Allegro for my first 3 years of driving then went out and bought a 3500 SD1 as soon as I started working 'proper'. On retrospect, it was quite surprising that it was 4 months before I binned the SD1 into the greenery......."my, the back end appears to be coming round on this wet bend...the Allegro never did this...Mummmmmmmmyyyyyyyyyyy"
Ended up narrowly missing a large roadside and landing in some gorsebushes. That taught me about how rear wheel drive cars handle!
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giving them lesss powerful cars is not the answer, most youths crash because they driven the car beyond either theirs or the cars own abilities. The only real answer is better training and a more comprehensive test. Adding in reverse parking and a hazard perception test does nothing for 'driver skill'.
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Speaking as a young driver, slow cars are boring.
Cars with double figure horsepower are irritating, dull, frustrating and lead to more risk taking - overtaking in a 90bhp asthmatic 1.6 litre Golf is frought with difficulty, overtaking in 200bhp of half decent car is far safer.
Not overtaking at all is even safer but how many young guys can sit behind old people in Rovers for miles on end?
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>>but how many young guys can sit behind old people in Rovers for miles on end?>>
Whilst appreciating your view, it still comes back to the issue of overtaking when it is safe to do so, rather than merely "sitting behind old people in Rovers for miles on end."
If you have to sit behind old people in Rovers for miles on end, then there is something lacking with your driving skills.
Also, never forget that you will be old yourself one day and, what's more, it arrives far quicker than you can ever imagine...:-)
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>>but how many young guys can sit behind old people in Rovers for miles on end?>>
'old people in Rovers' don't like being held up by incompetent dawdling whippersnappers, especially if the little prats think they're going quickly. Nothing like that fantasy to make people take up half the road, and fail to see these geriatric cases scowling in their mirrors...
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Speaking as a young driver, slow cars are boring. Cars with double figure horsepower are irritating, dull, frustrating and lead to more risk taking - overtaking in a 90bhp asthmatic 1.6 litre Golf is frought with difficulty, overtaking in 200bhp of half decent car is far safer.
You're more likely to drive into (instead of away from) an accident in a powerful car. Prudence isn't usually high on the list of characteristics of young inexperienced drivers.
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Hmm, I wonder if I am now considered old by the young driver posse being Im now 30 and yes I do drive a rover? Love to see you get stuck behind me in the rover mind. I can give a few people a shock in just how well I make the old girl go not only in straight lines but also on the twisty bits. You might think Im exaggerating but I also drive a heavily modded 205 gti so I know what good handling is but I really can get the rover 620sdi around a lot of things very quickly.
Still I gues thats driver skill and experience proving that the car doesnt matter.
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Ah yes, the renowned 620sdi.
I wish I had bought a Micra when I was younger, like this one
www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XKETJV3oQ0
Older viewers may wish to turn speakers off, there is some popular beat combo music in the background :-(
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I was, of course, reffering to Ethel and her husband in their Nightfire Red Rover 214i 8v complete with cushions on the parcel shelf who think 30mph is the best speed to negotiate an NSL A Road, rather than 30 somethings in decent Rover 600's.
But then you knew that :p
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Let's cut to the chase. Most (normal) teenagers wouldn't be seen dead in, let alone driving a Morris Minor!
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If by normal you mean someone who just has to have the right sort of low-slung trousers etc, and thinks of a car as a fashion accessory like a self-loading 9mm pistol, then I can only agree.
However a young fellow who knew what a car was wouldn't mind at all.
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Let's cut to the chase. Most (normal) teenagers wouldn't be seen dead in, let alone driving a Morris Minor!
That's what makes it ideal! Restrict teenage drivers to vehicles that are deeply unfashionable. Suggestions please.
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I was, of course, reffering to Ethel and her husband in their Nightfire Red Rover 214i 8v complete with cushions on the parcel shelf who think 30mph is the best speed to negotiate an NSL A Road, rather than 30 somethings in decent Rover 600's. But then you knew that :p
Id rather overtake Ethel doing 30 than 50 as it takes less time to get from 30-50 than 50-70, hence it should be safer. Besides, if you have seen Ethels driving skills, you may want her to stay at 30 lest she gets all flustered and brakes for every lump and curve in the road as many 'Ethels' that I have followed do.
I only do 45-50 on an A-Road but thats on account of a light, high-sided van battling with croswinds, not that the poor beggars behind me know that, but such is life, they should just thank goodness im not in a tractor - Imagine how slow Ethel would be in a Rover tractor?
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Pot's comment removed because the stupidity of it was beneath contempt
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The Australian system for inexperienced drivers seems to have some effect, even though the favourite vehicles are the 4-litre Fords and Holdens which can scamper along. [ The Vauxhall Monaro is just a warmed-over Holden with a couple of doors missing.] After passing their test, drivers must, for 3 years, display a "P" plate in place of the "L" plate. Whilst under probation, they are subject to much more rigorous punishment if they transgress in any way, and there are sufficient cops on the roads to enforce it. Anything that would score "points" usually means some duration of loss of licence, and anything above zero in an alcohol breath test is automatic disqualification and re-taking tests after at least a year off the roads. As roadblocks for random breath-testing is commonplace both there and in New Zealand, the risks of misbehaviour strike terror into the hearts of the great majority of younger drivers. Not having a driving licence is about as low as you can get in our teenage society.
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