As I was saying on the latest VW thread, I seem to have led a charmed life, having had reliable Renaults and VAGs before their reputation for reliability went downhill, and Mercedes after their apparent recovery.
Thinking particularly about reliability, I have the impression that (looking at Backroom threads rather than JD Power etc) the makes which cause fewest complaints seem to be:
Subaru
Citroen (plenty of ink spilt over French cars, but nearly always Renaults and Peugeots)
Vauxhall
Mazda
Skoda
The national surveys usually put Honda, Toyota and Nissan near the top, but Backroomers seem to have been casting doubts on these reputations recently.
Maybe DD can help as he seems to have an amazing memory for what has been posted here.
For me, I do 20,000 a year so need a diesel (knocks out Subaru) and something that holds its value (Citroen and Vauxhall don't look good on this front). So does my next car need to be a Mazda or a Skoda, or have I missed anything out?
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This may be a poor measure, for example there seems to be a lot of people on here that know Ford HCS engines inside out, but probably will not know their Suzuki 3 pots as found in entry corsas. So I come here for advice on my HCS engine, if I had a 1.0 Corsa I probably wouldn't.
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There's an odd backroom fixation with engines, and engine oil. I suspect most modern cars go throughout their life with minimal engine work beyond routine servicing, and it's either accident damage, body corrosion, or a list of MOT failure items that finally see the demise of the majority. I can imagine there will be some engine failures at end of life, but at the bangernomics end of the market, it isn't such a problem, you just scrap it, and get another.
A while ago, I worked in a Vauxhall garage - For every Suzuki engine (in the Rascals) that I took apart, I would be taking ten Vauxhall engines apart - so there are some engines that you are unlikely to *need* to know what goes on inside!
Number_Cruncher
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Thinking particularly about reliability, I have the impression that (looking at Backroom threads rather than JD Power etc) the makes which cause fewest complaints seem to be: Subaru
Never had one.
Citroen
I had 2 ZXs from new and both were unreliable.
Vauxhall Mazda Skoda
Not had any of those.
Don't forget Ford. I've had several Escorts and 2 Foci (all from new) and not had any problems worth talking about.
--
L\'escargot.
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I have had my Mazda 323 since new in 1999. Nothing to report. It just goes. Never needed anything other than routine servicing. Looks good for another 10 years if we don't decide to trade it for an auto.
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The national surveys usually put Honda, Toyota and Nissan near the top, but Backroomers seem to have been casting doubts on these reputations recently.
So does mynext car need to be a Mazda or a Skoda, or have I missed anything out?
I've not noticed complaints about Honda reliability on here. There were posts about heavy fuel consumption on the diesel, but that seems to have gone.
I bought a Honda for the first time after being a Vauxhall fan for almost twenty-five years. The most unreliable was the Calibra.
After 10,000 miles my Honda fuel consumption is over 50mpg on the autoroute and I'll replace it next year with the new Accord.
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The one you have that does not breakdown.
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I have had three Vauxhalls and one Ford in the last 15 years, the Cav was faultless though boring, the Vectras more troublesome though what let Vaux down was the dealers, the Ford dealers I have dealt with have been a revelation by comparison. Wife's Clio has been superb, bench marked against a local Polo of the same age that is rather rusty and a friend's problematic Yaris and Toyota dealer problems.
So to go from Ford or a small Renault currently for us would be risky as far as I am concerned so S-Max and Clio would be on the list, that being said wife likes the Verso.
Just cant bring myself to accept a what would be a paltry amount for either the 8 year old Clio or 115k mile Mondeo as both are running fine and good to drive.
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My friend the AA man would concur with the Honda/Nissan/Toyota being more reliable idea (based on his experience)
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Honda are the only mainstream marque that I have never heard anyone call unreliable. A previous employer ran a fleet of 20 1997-2000 Accord 2.0iLS's up to 100-120k and not one of them ever broke down or cost a penny outside of routine maintenance and consumables. They bought one off the lease company (1998 model) at the end of its term to use as a pool car / general runabout which went on to rack up 200,000 miles without so much as a bearing or bush replacement. The engine had never been apart, yet to hear it, you'd think it had 20k on the clock. The other Hondas I've known owned by friends and rellies have also been faultless.
I don't know anyone with a Subaru, but I have heard of individual reliability problems with all of the other "top" manufacturers in the op's list.
I've personally had great luck with a whole string of Fords, but have also heard some real horror stories as well. Honda remain the only one who I've heard "all good" reports about.
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I will stick to my Honda's from now on - We ran a Prelude up to 181k miles, never really any problems, the normal wear and tear items including exhausts and radiators needed changing in the 13 years we had it, the only thing that went wrong with it was a new distributor about 6 years ago, a new abs sensor, a new spring and then the thing that finally killed it off for us was the ABS pump went - but it still sold on ebay for £400 and the engine was as good as new. Now I don' t think what was spent was a fortune, the only thing that stopped it actually moving and starting was the distributor, so in 181k and 13 years it failed to start once!!!!!
I have had quite a few Vauxhalls as company cars, nearly all of them had the AA out to them at some point, I had a 406 and that needed a visit from the AA, The mondeo I had after it also required a visit from the AA. I then bought a Renault laguna, alright it was 8 years old and 96k on the clock, but it had quite a few visits from the RAC for the coil twice, the Power steering pipes and a couple of other hiccups!!!! This car had been owned from new by a Renault Mechanic, so it was well looked after and yet it still started to fall to bits.
We now have 2 Honda's, a Shuttle which is superb, loads of get up and go with the 2.3 vtec, it has a very smooth auto box as well and is very comfortable - it is a V reg, but still looks very good, interior is not falling too bits and the exterior is in good condition as well. The other is an Accord Aerodeck on an R plate, it still looks good, trim is as new despite 10 years old and 96k - No problems with it in the 3 months I have had it and I hope none are looming!!!
The Honda's just cope with age and mileage far better then other cars I have driven, as do other Jap cars, European manufacturers just seem to build cars to last a couple of years - if that.
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I've only had 8 cars, and amongst them the one that spent the most time off road was a 16V Cavalier SRi - clogged air sensor, failed camshaft sensor to name just two of the things that went wrong.
After that I switched to an Accord 2.0SE and following that my current Accord Type-S. Both have been faultless. My late father had seven Hondas (4 Accords, 2 Civics and 1 Concerto) and none broke down or required anything other than routine maintenance. Certainly most peopl see Hondas as being very reliable and the surveys back this up.
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'Cause fewest complaints?'
Oh boy!
That is one wide open question.
There are people who will complain like hell and try to reject a car because a bit of interior trim squeaks whilst another person will get some WD40/lithium spray and be done with it.
Also, who are you complaining to...your mates down the pub, the dealer, the manufacturer, etc.
I have an Alfa that is ten years old with some rusty bits. Irritating and I'd rather be without it, but the car is 10 years old and has never let me down. I also have an 03 Mondeo with the rusty door problem and that irks me a lot, yet otherwise I cannot fault the car at all. Sure, a screw fell out of somewhere once, but I simply put it back. The fuse board under the dash is awkward to get to, but I certainly would not complain about it.
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Wow what a mix of cars! on Top gear the other night the bottom of the list was heavily French. There dosen't seem alot of consistency on reliabilty, perhaps we should start our own reliabilty survey on new cars. Who would like to nominate a model? Lets say to get a backroom vote at least 10 opinions on any model. 10 out of ten to 0 out of ten.
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and something that holds its value (Citroen and Vauxhall don't look good on this front). >>
Only if you pay list price, and who does that?
I recall a couple of years back Auto Express showing that in the real world a C5 depreciates less than a Merc C180.
I've had a string of Ciroens, no real problems, never let me down. Certainly better than the couple of Mercs I ran recently.
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Casting JD power surveys etc aside and reflecting on my (and knowledge of family) ownership experiences I would say the following.
Vauxhall - not good.
Ford - better.
Chrysler - very poor.
VW - very poor.
Mercedes - poor.
Nissan - good.
Toyota - poor.
Audi - poor.
Landrover - very poor.
BMW - good.
Honda - very good.
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Sorry and just on ethat I forgot to add.
Saab - very poor
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Oh yes and one more I forgot - my sisters Mitsibushi's Colt - Good.
(Why use one post when 3 will do).
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I would add to your list,from our family history.
Mazda(2)- both very good
old volvo's(4)- 3 very good,1 average
Ford(2)- both average
Renault(2) - 1 very poor,1 average
BMW (2) both good
Honda- very good
VW(2)- one very good,one fairly poor,same age.
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To add to this:
Nissan (3) all excellent
Hyundai (1) very good, a few minor niggles
Vauxhall (1) average
Fiat (1) terrible, always needing repairs.
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pooled wife's and mine driving experiences over last 10 years
Jag........ very good, although a few minor niggles
Peugeot........very good (306 and 206, 205)
VW........fairly poor (Polo)
Rover.....very good (414 and 620)..........so Honda then
Daewoo.....fairly good
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Our experiences:
Toyota - very good
Volvo - very good
Vauxhall - good
Saab - good
VW - reasonable
Peugeot - reasonable
Renault - poor (although previous ones quite good. They've gone down)
So it would have to be Japanese then. Perversely the cars I have enjoyed the most has been french despite being equally the most frustrating. If only they could sort the problems out.
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My experiences
Mazda 323 83, for 14 years from new very good 140k
Nissan primera si 97 till now awsome 150K
Micra 1.3 95 last three years looking good 62K
Micra 1.4 se just a few months 17moths old and 12k when we got it so far so good
same dilemma nissan don't do a car thats fit my bill anymore!
So its Skoda Octavia or Mazda6 and I'm going for diesel this time round!
Still can,t make my mind up though
vulcan7
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Cars with No problems (meaning off road needing mended in a garage)
2xCavalier SRi (F + H reg)
1xCavalier CD (F reg)
1xCavalier V6 (M reg)
1xCavalier CD (X reg)
(All outstanding - all did over 100,000 miles, one did 200,000 miles, no problems on any of them )
Rover 827 V6 (G reg) 130,000 miles
Nissan QX (M reg) 40,000 miles
Ford Sierra 1.6 (E reg) 57,000 miles
Opel Monza (A reg) 30,000 miles fuel pipe came loose, easily fixed
Saab 9-5 (R reg) 40,000 miles no problems
1xRover 620Si (L reg) about 60,000 no problems except driver seat coming loose
2004 Chrysler Pacifica 35,000 miles no problems yet
2003 Lexus ES 39,000 miles no problems
1997 Honda CRV 70,000 miles no problems
2004 Ford Taurus 25,000 miles no problems
Cars we had problems with:-
Citroen BX 1.9 Diesel (K reg) cam belt broke at 40,000. Numerous problems other than that.
Vectra Diesel (R reg) 50,000 miles problems too numerous to mention, broke down, hoses blowing off, etc., etc.
Astra diesel van (M reg). At about 50,000 dumped its oil through a rusty pipe and wrote off the engine
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Yes - apologies to Honda, who should join the roll of honour. I shouldn't have forgotten Honda as SWMBO had a Jazz, then a Civic type S, both faultless. Touching wood, the current Mini One is fine as well.
I still find it strange that the proportion of people happy with their Skodas is much higher than with VW, yet most of the bits that can go wrong are the same. A lot of it must be down to dealers and whether they put the problems right first time.
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>>I still find it strange that the proportion of people happy with their Skodas is much higher than with VW, yet most of the bits that can go wrong are the same. A lot of it must be down to dealers and whether they put the problems right first time.
Correct IMO. I had a Passat for 3 years and the quality of the main dealer servicing and their inability to sort out niggles first time was atrocious. I'm now on my second Skoda and the dealers have been A1 on servicing - helpful, friendly and reasonable labour rates. I think it is as much about attitude and in my experience, Skoda have it just about right and VW are miles off it. I'll be interested to see if Skoda maintain this high level of satisfaction as they ditch many of their smaller friendlier dealerships for larger shinier showrooms and "men in suits".
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I still find it strange that the proportion of people happy with their Skodas is much higher than with VW, yet most of the bits that can go wrong are the same. A lot of it must be down to dealers and whether they put the problems right first time.
I had an Octavia TDI, but not had a VW; the Skoda wasn't without it's faults (clutch went because a plastic tab went, various issues with the engine and crashy front suspension, oh and a slight water leak) but it was two thirds the price of an equivalent Bora when i bought it, and the dealer was good.
Otherwise, i have found Japanese to be better, the Almera i drive now was bought by my wife in 1999 and has had nothing go wrong until the last couple of months. I had a 1990 G reg Corolla Liftback which was excellent, and my S reg Micra, despite being bottom of the range and Apple Green was a hoot. Compared to the Ford heaps i was given as company cars, there are leagues apart in terms of how they're screwed together.
My wife's Citroen C3 - it's ok but the brakes are squealing again and it does still unlock itself.
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I've personally had great luck with Fords. My current Mondeo mk2 TD is on 130k and although a little sloppy feeling these days (nothing a new set of shocks and some new bushes wouldn't sort), is still reliable enough that I can jump in it and do a 500 mile round trip to a meeting without having to even think about getting there OK. My dad had an early 2.0 petrol Mondy that did 180,000 utterly reliable miles, my old company Focus had one minor fault in 100,000 miles, and my sister has a 90,000 mile Ford Ka which she does a 70 mile a day commute in with no problems at all. That said, I know some Fords are troublesome. I just haven't owned or driven one yet.
I cannot praise Toyota after the experience a good friend had with a Celica 190 VVTLi. It was a disgraceful car. First fault at 600 miles, a major mechanical failure at less than 20,000 miles and then constant build / component quality problems until he got rid of it. Dealer was helpful though.
Honda as I said before seem to be consistently praised. My own experience bears this out with fleet owned Accords which were faultless. An Accord is a leading contender to replace the Mondeo later this year.
Have heard mixed things from BMW. A neighbour has a 2004 318i and has had quite a lot of problems with it, and a work colleague had a turbo go on his 320d at 60,000 miles. Same with Mercedes, some are good, some not so. I think their later models seem to have overcome the iffy quality of the late 90's / early 00's stuff. Our Dutch office chauffeur guys rave about the current E-Class
Cheers
DP
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