I'm not sure exactly what the signs say, I was in a rush and it was dark, I'll go back tomorrow and take some pictures.
Does it matter that the ticket is dated last year?
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It might be, but minor errors are allowed. Don't contact the issuing authority about the incorrect date until you are certain how you want to proceed.
Pepipoo is worth a look.
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Also what does the ticket say? Parking or causing an obstruction?
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Hi
The offence code is 1918
NO WAITING RESTRICTED ZONE
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It would appear that the whole area is a restricted zone, however there are no lines on the road, merely repeater signs stating no waiting restricted zone.
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Is the town/city involved a large one that has been granted a Special Parking Order which decriminalises matters for enforcement by LA? Doesn't seem like it if Plod is involved.
At the moment J you have me lost as I cannot visualise the signs you mention - care to elaborate and fully describe, size,shape and colour?
If it is a valid restriction then there will have been a Traffic Regulation Order made , copies held by LA Traffic Management Dept.
By what you say sounds like a waiting restriction so should be backed up with single or double yellow lines (has area been resurfaced lately?) I would suggest that you get sight of this Order to see what, where is involved and as a result what signing required. If correct signing has not been carried out then Order is unenforceable.
As the Police issued the ticked then this is a Fixed Penalty Notice (FPN) and whereas a LA Penalty Charge Notice has to have date of issue and date of ofeence to be valid this does not apply to FPN's. Neither it would seem the incorrect date has any bearing as if the FPN is not paid within the time scale it mentions then it will be processed for Court action and a summons issued. Incorrect date will be corrected on issue of summons and or when evidence given at Court.
This does not preclude an attempt by letter back pointing out the incorrect date when you car was elsewhere. They just may bin in but highly unlikely.
dvd
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Hi DVD
The borough is still under police enforcement.
The signs look something like this www.devon-cornwall.police.uk/v3/about/plym/roadsaf...m but have "no waiting restricted zone" instead of "at any time" It is more landscape than portrait and it does have the blue/red circle on it.
There are no markings, the road is old granite cobbles.
I have checked the two date issue and agree that this appears to only apply for pcn rather than fpn.
However the date on the fpn is for the offence, it does not state when the ticket was issued. so technically I cannot pay within 28 days as it has long since passed. As the date is incorrect, the offence for which the fpn was issued cannot have happened and therefore must be invalid?
I will try to check the TRO for this and see what it says re signing.
Alternatively, I could ignore the ticket, wait for a court summons and provide evidence including emails that put me (and my car) at a desk in an office some 30 miles away!
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Sign you mention appears to me to be one that is required to back up double or yellow lines,which are absent but if present there is need for these to be at intervals unless LA has applied for and been granted Controlled Parking Zone Order in which case the restriction only needs to be present on the sign entering the area unless there is a change i.e. single to double then a plate must be present at the change point.
If what is involved is a Waiting Restriction Order then lines should be present.
Again I cannot find the sign you mention in the Traffic Signs and General Directions 2002 which describe lawful signs. Howvere the fact that it isn't in the Regs does not mean that the sign in unlawfull as there is provision for Sec of State to authorise a deviation from the lawful.
In your place I would certainly try to see the Order and absorb what it says.
FPN have to be replied to or paid in 28 days otherwise court procedure kicks in (but this can be extended if the other party agrees).
Your last para indicates a possible course of action but as I have said when the summons arrives the defect may well have been corrected. Bear in mind the Mags can make alterations to correct defects as well.
Bear in mind I am no legal eagle but an old Plod in retirement that tries to keep abreast of traffic law. Again what appears to me is a missmatch of old Waiting Restriction enforcement and LA CPZ Order for enforcement. We had this at Scarborough some time ago when LA were processing traffic matters under a CPZ Order that they had never applied for so all illegal. You might be abouit to stir up a hornets nest.
dvd
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Thanks again
I've done some more research and the sign looks more like these than the other one i posted earlier.
www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/02311353.gif
www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/02311347.gif
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Worth finding put whether the road has been recently re-surfaced. These should be supported by a Single Yellow Line at least. The wrong date isn't fatal.
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The road is some 100 years old and is cobbled.
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I hadn't read DVD's post prior to mine. He gives you sound advice. Was it issued by a PC or PCSO ?
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I'm not sure whether it was a PC or PCSO, there is a name and (I assume) a collar number. Both operate in this borough so it could be either
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The Ticket issued will either say:
Fixed Penalty Notice, or
Penalty Charge Notice.
The former is Police, the later LA.
Which one? Does it give an Act and Section contravened or just Offence Code 1918?
dvd
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It was issued by the police and it is a fixed penalty notice.
Non endorsable offence
Pay £30 within 28 days or go to court.
Offence Code is 1918
reason give is: NO WAITING RESTRICTED ZONE.
I did check and there is no sign to the entrance of this are saying it is a restricted zone, I will check the TRO.
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A bit of digging J and the following has been unearthed:
RESTRICTED ZONES
31. These are not in TSRGD because they only work over very limited areas, generally in combination with environmental enhancement, and depend mainly on being self-enforcing. They rely on entry signs and repeaters to indicate waiting restrictions without yellow lines - where enforcement is carried out by the police, the agreement of the police is needed for a relaxation of the signing requirements. Sometimes we have also permitted authorities to dispense with the white prescribed parking bay markings, as long as parking bays have been clearly delineated eg by use of different paving materials. All Restricted Zone signs have to be specially authorised
Where waiting restrictions are uniform, and traffic conditions suitable, the designation of a restricted zone can obviate the need for yellow lines
I have never come across one of these before and as stated they do not appear in the TSGD listed signs but under special authorisation from Sec of State. The Traffic Reg Order will state the length of road invbolved from which you will be able to determine the entry points which should have a large sign to the effect it is a Restricted Zone. As stated the repeater signs are there.
You must live in a pretty ancient town where yeloow lines woulkd distract from the natural beauty of the place.
For my education come back with how you got on.
dvd
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Forgot to add, if there are no signs at the entrance to the Zone then you have an argfument that it is unenforceable.
TSGD do state that that restriction has to be signed.
dvd
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............... and if you are making noises J query the FPN No. Plodaughter tells me no such number and it does not appear on my list Home Office Group 820 Obstruction, Waiting and parking offences which is N2001 to N2020.?
dvd
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Dwight,
I wondered about this and whether the fixed penalty codes were national of Force Specific. Shame I was with an Officer most of this afternoon and could have asked.
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Thanks for the replies
I've done some more digging and spoken to the chap at the highways dept, who told me exactly what the tro is for and what signs should be in place and where. Most pertinantly there should be a "zone entry sign" at the entrance to this road, I visited the location ,saw no sign, took a picture and emailed it to him. He then confirmed to me that the sign is missing and as such the zone is not signed correctly and any ticket issued will be void, doubling this with the incorrect date, I feel I should win the case.
I'll call Cheshire police on monday and see how to appeal without having to go to court, I feel it would be better for al parties concerned not to attend court with all the associated costs involved. Incidentally, if Cheshire police won't cancel the fpn, can I claim costs at court (loss of earnings due to attending court etc?)
Thanks
Jonathan
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I would include in the letter that you are aware that the normal process is to elect for trial but that you are aware that this would cost the authourities a packet to process this to trial. The "file" will go to CPS at some point so you need to include as much information as possible to reduce the possibility of going to Court. What you want is for the CPS to quash it before it goes near a Court. I would include as much technical data such as the photos and the fact you have spoken to the Highway Authority, basically its showing your hand to them. Me ? I would inclue a photosat of the original Ticket showing the incorrect date and including this in your sort of "Defence Statement" on its own its not enough but with all the other flaws it maybe the tipping point.
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Seems you're onto a winner.
When you write, don't forget to refer to the bloke you spoke to by name. The more info the CPS has, the better - because you want to ensure it's looked at carefully. I suppose it may not even get to CPS.
Claims for costs are for legal costs, not for inconvenience, loss of earnings etc.
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Let us know what happens.
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Ah, the delights of signage. Ask the enforcing authority if they will be contacting other drivers who have had incorrectly issued tickets and offering restitution. The admission of error by highways is unusual, in writing I hope?. Is the sign required at the entrance to the road or entrances to the general area?
Pepipoo mentions exemption from yellow lines, there is a thread running at the moment about St Neots (appalling place). I understand that some local authorities use very thin yellow lines and lines of colours other than yellow. All very confusing.
Perhaps you should go to court and seek costs?
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Hi All
An update...
I wrote to the Police, politely outlining my case that the ticket was wrongly dated and the signage is incorrect.
They have written back saying that the ticket date is just an administrative error and does not invalidate it, and the signage is correct, therefore pay up or see you in court.
The sign they refer to is some 500m away and relates to a separate TRO for a larger area, which is clearly marked with double yellow lines and is only 8am to 6pm (or something similar)
This area is covered by a separate TRO a copy of which I have. The TRO clearly states that a large sign (approx 2ft x 3ft) should be erected on the entrance to this zone (which is a one way road, in a loop shape). The sign is not there. I have had another good chat to the highways officer who has confirmed again that there should be a sign and they are in the process of ordering a replacement.
I have written to the police again with a copy of the TRO and have asked the police to check their copy of the TRO (they should have one, and if they've lost it they will have to contact the highways chap to get one). He believes they will let it go to court and either rescind at the last minute or offer no evidence.
Does anyone else believe I have a good case? What costs can be claimed in cases like these?
Thanks
Jonathan
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Just to let you all know, I decided to take this to court.
I have received a letter this morning saying that Cheshire Constabulary have decided not to proceed with the court action and the fpn has been cancelled.
Now I'm a little sad that they haven't stepped up to the challenge of court considering I have been preparing to go to court, and have spent some time learning about these matters.
What would be the situation for claims made against the police for expense/costs incurred to date, given that they have decided to pull the case, or is it simply, there is no action and no costs can be claimed?
By the way this is exactly what the Highways Officer (Council) said would happen.
I think they decided to look at the TRO, saw it was not being complied with and withdrew, rather than fighting it and having a judgement against them which effectively means they cannot legally issue fpn tickets against people parking in this area.
Thanks
Jonathan
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Well done! Look at the mutual waste of time and effort that has occurred, just because LA can't get their signage correct! Probably an OBE in this for some jobsworth!
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Hi AS
to be fair, the LA did get it right, but the sign was removed. The LA have told me they didn't know about it and it was present during their last inspection. It was because the sign was removed that invalidated the TRO. I was more frustrated with the police's responses to my letters even faced with the evidence they still would cancel the FPN.
On a slightly different subject, am currently reading Wasting Police Time by David Copperfield, fantastic book, highly recommended and gives a good insight into what modern police work is like, I'm not surprised the wheels are coming off the CJS and that insufficient attention is given to matter.
Jonathan
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Good on you........if only more people did this, then the rest of us might have a chance of complying with what we should be and not getting had over for the things we shouldn't be
sadly...if i'm honest......i'd have given up ages ago
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