This finally explains why there are red crosses above the hard shoulder on the M42. and the digns I saw driving back last night.
htt p://tinyurl.com/ply4o
Not sure if I think it's a good idea or not...
|
|
can't imagine it will make much difference......... a lot of people in this country have an aversion to 'keeping left'.......... You've only got to drive up the bits of motorway with 4 lanes on them, it's like an American freeway & doesn't make much difference to the outside lane
|
|
It is a totally carp idea IMHO. Enough vehicles parked on the hard shoulder with breakdowns punctures or whatever, get hit now. What will happen when it is open for traffic - where will i go to change a wheel or while waiting for the recovery service? Money saving madness from a bunch of chauffeur driven loons who, as we speak are on a 86 day holiday!
|
|
|
More interested by the ad on the right where the 18 year old college girl is looking for an older man.... : )
But seriously... we need TRAINING before we need half-baked schemes like this.
|
|
Having been up it this morning, I can't see it actually making much of a difference in terms of traffic-flow. Any regular user of the M42 will be able to tell you the "variable speed limits" of which there are no working cameras coupled with "stay in lane" seem to make drivers think they can sit in the fast lane doing 45 (on a 50 limit) whilst traffic in others do 50. They don't really understand motorway regs and this is typically a cross-country problem.
|
|
|
More interested by the ad on the right where the 18 year old college girl is looking for an older man.... :)
LOL! I think I would be too when I'm old enough!
"Drivers who break down on the motorway will be able to pull into new lay-bys, known as emergency refuges, which have been built at 500-metre intervals."
I don't think they've quite grasped the concept of what "break down" can mean. You may be able to nurse a punctured tyre into one of these, but what about an overheated engine with a split bottom hose, or clutch failure, or battery power loss, or... etc? Even if I could, it wouldn't be at more than 30mph in any situation!
I'll never happen.
--------------
Mike Farrow
|
Don't tell me you're young enough for her to be interested in you anyway? How depressing.... : )
You're right. It'll never happen. Both the lay-bys AND the 18 year old...
|
|
|
I'll never happen.
It'll never happen! (Permanently I mean!)
Re Marks comment about the M42, I was travelling down there the other day and it was telling us to use the hard shoulder when instructed because there was an lorry broken down in the outside lane. So it's already happening in these situations. Still a bad idea though.
--------------
Mike Farrow
|
|
Bad Idea - spelt L-E-T-H-A-L!
|
If it's such a wonderful idea, why did they spend billions building hard shoulders in the first place? They could have saved the money, and just built extra lanes where they were really needed.
If they are looking for more daft ideas, what about letting 4WD vehicles use the grass verges as well?
|
|
Apart from being a crazy idea, if they go ahead with it, we can all look forward to long delays whilst they reduce the number of active lanes whilst they convert the hard shoulders.
|
At £100m per motorway it's not only dangerous but a waste of money. Say they do six busy motorways - M42, M6, M5, M25, M4, M1 - that's (obviously) £600m minimum.
The money could be much better spent actively encouraging the use of public transport or improving its reliability / availability.
All this scheme will do is create more motorway accidents (and the resultant additional 'safety' camera's), more cars on the road(s) and more pollution.
|
|
|
personally, i think the best solution to making the most use of existing lanes is to allow overtaking in any lane as in america and elsewhere.
having said that, the hard shoulder idea is really no different to what we already have on dual-carriageway "a" roads. these do without a hard shoulder evern though the speeds are not that different from congested "m" ways. the hard shoulder will only be opened for use during heavily congested periods when traffic flow will probably be slower than on urban single-carriageway "a" roads.
so what is different, and what is the problem? i don't see any.
|
Agree with you Dalglish - they will only be used at busy times and hundreds of miles of A roads make do with emergency laybys. My main concern is the speed at which the emergency services can reach the scene of an accident - the hard shoulder currently provides a quick clear route along the whole length of the motorway and many accidents occur during rush hour periods - i.e. when the hard shoulder will be full of traffic.
Getting a car to squeeze between queing traffic is difficult enough, try this with a fully loaded fire engine and problems will be encoutered. You could have three wagons side by side and a 7.5 tonner in the outside lane all four forming a very good road block.
|
they will only be used at busy times and hundreds of miles of A roads make do with emergency laybys.
The shoulders of dual-carriageways are often wider than the hard shoulder of motorways. Also, a lorry can move out to the edge of its lane if theres a car on an A-road shoulder, but the hard shoulder on motorways is too narrow for them to do this, which means braking and changing lanes.
--------------
Mike Farrow
|
This is such a crazy idea from a numpty government transport ministry, I believe this must be a smoke screen for something even crazier to be divulged, prehaps next week it will be announced that from 2007 we'll all be driving on the right hand side!!!
|
i wonder who has and who has not read the scheme details.
highways official press release
www.highways.gov.uk/news/pressrelease.aspx?pressre...9
..... Drivers between Junction 3A (the M40) and Junction 7 (the M6) will be directed to drive on the hard shoulder at times of peak congestion by hi-tech electronic signs. When the hard shoulder is in use a maximum 50 mph speed limit will be applied to all lanes
Emergency refuge areas are provided behind the hard shoulder approximately every 500 metres to ensure people whose vehicles have broken down have a safe area away from the traffic.
The Highways Agency has also worked closely with the emergency services on this scheme. Individual lanes, including the hard shoulder, can be opened and closed by Highways Agency operators by simply displaying a red 'X' on the electronic lane signals. This flexible approach allows immediate lane closures to ensure safe emergency services access in the event of a major incident. ...
read the rospa response to the original proposal:
www.rospa.com/roadsafety/consultations/2004/active...f
.......
In the international context, hard shoulder running is not a new concept. It has been common practice in some America States for over ten years and the Netherlands and Germany have both trialed its use. The aim of hard shoulder running is to provide a cost effective way to increase road capacity and decrease congestion without the necessity of road widening or road building. When it was first introduced in America, hard shoulder running resulted in an increase in collisions but the introduction of sophisticated traffic management systems has resulted in a reduction in these collisions. In America the system tends to be used on a regular basis during peak hours. In the Netherlands the use of hard shoulder running is triggered when congestion is unusually heavy.
In the seven locations in The Netherlands where Hard Shoulder Running is presently used, emergency refuge areas have been built at 500 metre intervals and equipped with MIDAS (Motorway Incident Detection and Automatic Signalling) inductive loops in addition to the traditional telephone linked to the control room. When a vehicle's presence is detected by the MIDAS loops, an automatic alarm warns the control room operator and pans the nearest CCTV camera onto the scene. Other safety features include a strictly enforced speed limit on the hard shoulder and a restriction on overtaking. These measures have resulted in a positive road safety benefit with a reduction in collisions not only in the area of hard shoulder running, but in the surrounding routes.
The M42 pilot provides an opportunity to experiment with a similar system in Britain and RoSPA hopes that the results of the trial will be fully analysed and evaluated before similar schemes are implemented elsewhere in the country. This will allow any peculiarly British problems to be highlighted and the lessons learned from the pilot to be fully integrated into any future schemes of hard shoulder running.
Congestion is a serious issue on British roads affecting as it does travel times and consequently the cost of transporting people and materials for business and industry. However any cost saving in reducing congestion cannot be made at the cost of road safety. Motorways are some of our safest roads. We need to ensure that they stay that way. Any modifications to the regulations should not negatively affect road safety. .....
other details of the scheme here:
www.opsi.gov.uk/si/em2005/uksiem_20051671_en.pdf
www.roadtraffic-technology.com/projects/m42/
|
|
|
|
"Drivers who break down on the motorway will be able to pull into new lay-bys, known as emergency refuges, which have been built at 500-metre intervals." You may be able to nurse a punctured tyre into one of these.....
And judging by the amount of debris scattered on the hard shoulder, these new lay-bys will soon fill up.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Here's what ROSPA had to say back in 2004 when commenting on this specific trial during its planning stage: tinyurl.com/rwqk2
|
sjb;
:: ;-) :: you beat me to it with a link while i was copying & pasting the contents !
|
No worries!
We just cross posted again! ;-)
|
|
|
|
Err, I posted the Rospa link already.
Mods, suggest you remove the link if you are happy for the text that's been quoted to remain, or viccy vercky.
|
|
National road charging scheme....extra lanes....how quiet a lane can you afford?
|
Regardless of the obvious safety pitfalls - it may work okay elserwhere, but we're talking British drivers here- the gantries they build every half mile (so as to be able to tell us whether or not that particular half-mile of shoulder is open or closed and obstructed) are just BOUND to have scameras - how could they resist, especially when they've said the limit in all lanes will be 50 when the hard shoulder is in live use...?
And they'll be digital, average-speed ones, not your old-tech wind-up wet-film, driver friendly (oh yes they are, you aint see nuthin yet!) Gatso's...of which we will soon have fond memories!
Still want this??!
N
|
are just BOUND to have scameras
>>
if only people read the links, they would find:
"Variable speed limits will be enforced using gantry-mounted speed enforcement cameras.
It is proposed that an automatic system be developed for enforcement of hard shoulder offences. However this may not be in place when ATM becomes operational and enforcement may initially be carried out through a combination of deterrence, police patrols and traditional enforcement techniques."
Still want this??!
>>
yes i do, i say roll it out nationwide. works extremely well on the m25 around heathrow.
|
|
|
|
|
|
The van driver heading south on the M11 approaching Stansted this afternoon was obviously aware of the changes, his journey was only slightly impeded by artic 1 (57 mph) overtaking artic 2 (56.5 mph); hazards on, a swift lane change to the hard shoulder and away into the distance. Quite impressive .... in an insane way.
|
I agree with westpig above - you can create as many lanes as you like but unless people start using the proper lane discipline you will still have needless congestion as everybody just sits in the right hand lanes.
I also think it is a bad idea - wait till the first pile up in the autumn fog when the emergency services cannot reach the accident and then it will revert completely back to normal.
Who thinks these things up.
Why not just try and educate drivers to use the motorways properly.
I'm convinced we could decrease congestion by 20-30% purley by driving correctly and only using the outside lanes for overtaking.
|
|
Where will all the allegedly unreliable french cars and VW's go? ;-)
|
|
For the sake of convenience, maybe they could break down in the outside lane with the lorry Mike mentioned - what on earth was a lorry doing in the outside lane anyway?!?
|
"Where will all the allegedly unreliable french cars and VW's go? ;-
Now here's a strange thing. Last year there was a thread on here suggesting that car reliability could be assessed by counting the breakdowns on the hard shoulder. I tried this on my various trips up to Leeds from the Midlands but there were too many to really keep count. I tried last summer to do the same in France but my sample was rather small (one BMW on the hard shoulder and one Renault 5 at a junction on an ordinary road - draw your own conclusion or not!).
This summer, on the way to Dover we commented on how many breakdowns (quite a few of which were punctures) there were on M1, M25 and M20 - must have been a couple of dozen. Last week I went up to the northwest via a (short section of ) the M6 another dozen or so cars stopped on the hard shoulder. In France I did my count again. In over 1000 miles on autoroutes I saw not one breakdown on the hard shoulder. Now I realise this qualifies me as a very sad person but the other thing that was really noticeable was the debris on the hard shoulder and the central reservation of UK motorways - crates, packing cases, big plastic containers, stones, bricks, bottles , you name it. In France - nothing, no litter whatsoever.
Is there a connection? Or is it that the French (and the Dutch, Brits, Belgians who use their motorways) maintain their cars better, are French cars super-reliable (apart from Renault 5s!). Are Bmws the most unreliable cars (along with Ren 5s). Is it the density of traffic? Are our motorways carp?(Uneven, rutted, potholed etc)
--
Phil
|
|
|
|
Where do you enter that link? The web address bar doesn't work.
|
Where do you enter that link?
Just paste tinyurl.com/ply4o into your URL address bar. The http:// bit will be added automatically.
|
|
|
|
Surprised no one has started a thread on this issue yet.
Traffic is using as an experiment the safety lane on the M42 near Birmingham to help ease congestion during peak times or when an accident is blocking the main carriageways.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006...l
Do you think this is a good idea or not?
--
Roger
I read frequently, but only post when I have something useful to say.
|
They have:
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=44501&...f
|
Missed this thread as I was away on holiday at the time.
Moderators please move this thread to the earlier thread. {Done - DD}
--
Roger
I read frequently, but only post when I have something useful to say.
|
|
|
|
|
Just waiting till someone breaks down, manages to get over to the hard shoulder.Meanwhile another driver perhaps tired or not paying attention will plough straight into the broken down vehicle.Accidents on the hard shoulder happen all the time, and thats without any one driving on it.IMHO a bad idea.I certainly will not use it.
|
Agree 100% with turbo11, this is an accident waiting to happen. I bet it's not long before there's an accident and the daft policy is abandoned.
Anyone driven on a hard shoulder anyway? Not exactly smooth is it, as it was designed for emergency use and therefore presumably didn't have such as expensive surface put down.
|
Agree 100% with turbo11, this is an accident waiting to happen. ... hard shoulder anyway? Not exactly smooth is it, as it was designed for emergency use
>>
in my opinion, this just goes to prove how hard it is going to be to change perceptions.
as i understand it|:
1. the whole point of this m42 hard shoulder section is that it has been entirely relaid and redesigned, and now there are overhead gantries controlling all lanes and a multitude of cameras watching out for accidents.
2. the hard-shoulder and the other "ordinary" lanes can all be closed off at a few seconds notice such that any lane where there is an accident is freed for emergency services.
3. by definition, during congestion periods when the hard shoulder will be open, a compulsory speed limits which will operate and this will always be 50mph or lower!
4. if the motorway is blocked, the emergency services will gain access from the "wrong side" at the next junction, as no junction is more than 4 miles apart.
5. the above is far better than existing motorways without the overhead lane closure instructions and without the multitude of camera watching for breakdowns, and is far better than current dual carriageways where you can travel at higher speeds and where there are no hard shoulders.
i just do not see what a problem.
and to quote from artful-dodger's telegraph link
".....in Holland the scheme had led to a 13 per cent reduction in accidents and a 19 per cent reduction in casualties. ..."
so if similar gains are seen on the m42 trial, will everyone (who has commented against this trial scheme here) be clamouring for a return to the higher accident and casulaty rates?
let us wait and see.
|
I'm one of those people that were screaming and shouting about what a terrible idea hard shoulder running is, that is until I've actually tried it.
In reality it's fine. The surface is as smooth (if not smoother, thanks to lack of use) as lane 1. No debris that I can see.
The low speeds means any breakdowns stuck there is just not an issue. The 50mph limit is rigoursly enforced and stuck to by almost all in the left hand lanes.
I mean come on, this country is littered with roads with 50, 60 and 70mph limits that have little or no hard shoulder equivilent. We don't worry about the thousands of miles of 50/60mph A-roads that have no hard shoulders do we? We should we worry about having no hard shoulder on Motorways with strict 50mph limits, continual monitoring from every gantry in each lane and no blind bends?
To put it in perspective, a few miles up the road you come to the two-lane A42 dual carriageway. 70mph + speeds (often nearer 90mph) are the norm.
I've seen vehicles stradling lane 1 after a breakdown on this section with cars and trucks flying by half across lane 1 and 2, leaving only a few feet of room. Scary stuff for sure.
Also, as a congestion measure, so far hard shoulder running appears to be working and will be very handy for jumping off at the next junction when the traffic does come to a halt.
It gets a big thumbs up from me, a regular M42 user.
|
|
|
|
|
