A typical example of opportunistic garages preying on punters' insecurity with pseudoscientific reasoning.
Yes and no.
No, because while it is OK for you to decide that you won't ever get the brakes so hot on your car, a garage doesn't know how a car is going to be used and abused, and *must* assume the worst, and has to rely on manufacturer's guidance.
Yes, because I think that garages are bit too keen to obtain this extra work, and in most cases, brake fluid is fine for longer than two years. I would be happier if a sample of fluid from the reservoir were checked for its boiling point, with the fluid change only recommended if the boiling point fell below a reasonable limit.
>>If it works don't mend it!
I think you can push this maxim too far!
Number_CRuncher
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My vauxhall dealer does my fluid for free at MOT time as the car is already in the air, and it must take them 6-7 mins and £1 of fluid. It is small things which cost very little like this that makes all the difference, and makes a customer loyal.
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A braking system contains more than £1 of fluid. Your dealer may do a resistivity test but a fluid change I doubt. To clean the old fluid out uses about 4 times the volume of the system so you'll use around 600 to 800 ml of fluid depending on the car. Regards Peter
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VW insist on a fluid change every 2 years. £49 for my Passat last time even at main dealer.
BMW also specify an annual change of brake/clutch fluid on my R1150R and biennial? on the power servo fluid.They must be joking.At under 3000 miles per annum, mostly dry miles it is just overkill.
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I wasna fu but just had plenty.
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I think for a £1 of fluid & 6 to 7 minutes they are just topping up the reservoir (unless they can run like hell around all four wheels wielding their spanner etc) .... so it will overflow nicely when they next change the pads and forget to draw some fluid off first!
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I think for a £1 of fluid & 6 to 7 minutes they are just topping up the reservoir (unless they can run like hell around all four wheels wielding their spanner etc) .... so it will overflow nicely when they next change the pads and forget to draw some fluid off first!
The standard Vauxhall labour time allowance for a brake fluid change done as part of a service is 18 minutes. When you already have the wheels off the car, this is a gift, and, especially with a retard (oops, sorry, apprentice!) pumping the pedal and topping up the fluid, can be done in five minutes easily.
The places charging for half an hour's time either are quoting the time including bringing the car in from the car park, getting it in the air, and getting the wheels off, or are making a killing on the job!
Number_Cruncher
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pumping the pedal and topping up the fluid, can be done in >> five minutes easily.
If they do it at that speed that explains why so often fluid is oozing down the outside of the master cylinder onto the painwork. Notwithstanding your observations, if Audi want £90 I can't imagine a Vauxhall main dealer will do a full fluid change for £1.
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The price they pay for fluid will be about £1!
I have changed the fluid myself with 2 litres for about £2.50 and 20 minutes labour without raising the car, just screwing around on the floor with an E Z Bleed one man kit, and a damn fine job I did too.
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>>If they do it at that speed that explains why so often fluid is oozing down the outside of the master cylinder
You are mixing up sloppiness with efficiency.*
It's a job that can be done easily, without bodging, or breaking sweat, or dripping any fluid in 5 minutes when done as part of a service, typically using 1.5 to 2 litres of fluid.
I can't remember the prices charges by the Vauxhall dealer where I worked - long out of date now anyway. However, they would be composed of 0.3 hours labour, plus 1.5 litres fluid, whatever that equates to . (Significantly more than £1 I think!)
Number_Cruncher
* One of the problems with the bonus system employed in many dealerships is that it encourages all mechanics to speed through the work. There are some mechanics who work efficiently, and methodically who can usually beat the quoted labour times without trying too hard, and without cutting any corners. There are other, more sloppy types, who struggle, and the only way they can make any bonus is by bodging. A good foreman can deal with this, and straighten out any slackers, but a good foreman costs good money that most garages aren't prepared to spend.
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Whilst the vehicle is on the ramp,it can be done by putting an extension on the top of the m/cyl that holds a resevoir about 2ft. higher than the cylinder.You then go round the bleed screws letting gravity send the fluid thro' the system.When finished,you turn off a tap below the resevoir,which leaves you with a system full of fluid and a topped-up resevoir.
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Are you sure this bonus system still exists?
I often ask the mechanics wherever I go and they all say pretty much the same thing, not these days, they wish it did but no they just get wages, overtime and a tool allowance.
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>>Are you sure this bonus system still exists?
I'm not sure, it's now some time since I used the bonus clock for the last time*. I know that some mechanics have been taken off bonus - the ones doing more diagnosis rather than servicing; but I don't know if bonus has been done away with altogether.
* This is where the mechanic physically clocks on and off each job - woe betide any mechanic booking too much time to a non-productive job code!
The bonus clock did an excellent job of making the mechanic feel like a valued contributor to the customer service experience - NOT!
Number_Cruncher
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In 34 years of car driving and ownership, and over 1/2 a million miles driving I have never ever cchanged or had the brake fluid changed. I have never had brake failure cause by not changing the fluid either.
Its an utterly pointless exercise, probably only required every 10 years or so.
And dont give me this "its hydroscopic" rubbish either, I bet no one has had brake failure caused by localised fluid boiling.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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You will have if you get the new Touran serviced as per the book. A bit dodgy not having the full service done when under warranty. What's that Sir ? ABS failure- not under warranty if you did not have the brake fluid changed at 2 years.
I bet (50p) that there have been brake failures- my old Maxi had the pedal go to the floor when I came off the Cat and Fiddle into Macclesfield. Later found that water poured off the bonnet and sluiced around the master cylider when it was lifted.. British design at its best.
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I wasna fu but just had plenty.
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And dont give me this "its hydroscopic" rubbish either, I bet no one has had brake failure caused by localised fluid boiling.
I remember when the boiling point testing of a sample of brake fluid became commonly used and car manufacturers said the temperature it was tested at had never been reached, even during the most severe repeated brake tests.
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the best example of hydroscopisity (brake failure due to water in the system) was a triumph aclaim 83y the brakes went totally due to the back cylinders sucking the stuff in it also affected the honda (pass cant remember but i burnt one out welding one due unknown to me the fuel lines ran inside the car) very frightening at the time and not something i would want to repeat as in the time your brain reacts to the fact you have no retardation the vehicle in front is pretty damm near
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And dont give me this "its hydroscopic" rubbish either, I bet no one has had brake failure caused by localised fluid boiling.
How is it rubbish?Are you saying BF does not absorb water?It is well documented,the problem being corrosion and subsequent failure of rear(drum brake cylinders).I have never seen a failed one with clean fluid in it,always filthy black stuff to accompany the corroded piston which has damaged the seals.Disc brakes seem to fare better,probably because the cylinders are larger,but for a few quid(I pay £10 for 5 lts.)and half an hours work I would prefer to have fresh fluid every couple of years.
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1. When I did chemistry it was called 'hygroscopic'.
2. There are, I recall, new brake fluids which are not hygroscopic. No idea what maufactureres actually use.
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2. There are, I recall, new brake fluids which are not hygroscopic. No idea what maufactureres actually use.
The non-hygroscopic fluid is DOT 5, which is silicon, and is not generally used: it has different properties which means you can't use it with many ABS systems. As a concequence, most manufacturers still use DOT 4, or DOT 5.1.
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Mike Farrow
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Its an utterly pointless exercise, probably only required every 10 years or so.
Which is it then TVM? Pointless or required every ten years?
And dont give me this "its hydroscopic" rubbish either, I bet no one has had brake failure caused by localised fluid boiling.
Happened to my brother all right.
I think you're also ignoring the corrosion risk on ABS pumps/ valve blocks. Before you ask I don't know if anybody has actually suffered from ABS pump failure due to not changing fluid so it must be a fairy story, right?
You keep yours, I'll change mine ;-)
Didn't you also suggest servicing was more or less unnecessary in a recent thread? Do you drive a company car by any chance?
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Didn't you also suggest servicing was more or less unnecessary in a recent thread?
Apologies, it was No FM2R!
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The fact is that I have NEVER changed brake fluid and NEVER had a problem.
And yes I reassert its all a waste of time and a load of rubbish.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Changing the brake (and clutch) fluid regularly is important. It helps flush out bits of debris (e.g. rubber particles) and ensures that there is no moisture in the system. ABS systems are design to aerospace standards and you don't want muck and moisture in there. Anyone who changes fluid will have seen the stream of dark and dirty fluid that emerges from a neglected system.
Once the fluid moisture content rises above 5% then the boiling point falls sharply.
For those that don't believe that brake fluid can boil...
In 1998 I bought a car from Measham auctions. I was with a mate and decided to drive it home. The car was a rather neglected Merc190E. After about 15 miles I noticed a 'hot brake' smell and prodded the pedal a few times. To my horror I found the brakes rapidly fading away.
Anyway, after managing to stop the car on the handbrake I found that the brake fluid was filthy (probably never been changed) a piston was sticking, causing a pad to overheat and boiling the fluid in the caliper....
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I recently rebuilt my rear calipers. The insides of the pistons were well rusted and seized to the caliper. If there's no water in the fluid, where does the rust originate.
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Wifes clio. 6 years old. Nver been changed. Undid one of the bleed valves two weekend ago on the back and pumped a bit out into a jar.
Clean as a whistle. Could have come straight from the tin.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Wifes clio. 6 years old. Nver been changed. Undid one of the bleed valves two weekend ago on the back and pumped a bit out into a jar. Clean as a whistle. Could have come straight from the tin.
A bit further up this thread you said you never changed fluid? Presumably when you pumped a bit out, you put a bit in?
Anyway, speak to any pro mechanic and they'll tell you that anything over about 4 years and the fluid's gone mucky. I've been changing fluid for 30 years - must have done hundreds - old stuff always comes out mucky. I change the clutch fluid as well. Its not usually on any service schedule so 10 year old stuff comes out nearly black.
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agree with tvm and john-f.
if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
there are far more accidents caused by bodged brake fluid changes than by leaving in old fluid.
anyway, it is just another manufacturers' (and dealers') con to generate income.
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Agree with Aprilia, whenever I've changed old fluid on our cars, the old stuff always came out darker than the fresh even though they got done every 2-3 years and not only that, the brakes felt keener too, dunno why.
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Oh BTW on our Volvos, not for the faint hearted.
There is a special knack for getting the bleed screws undone without snapping them, after breaking two and having to get rebuilt ones, I've developed a technique involving a hammer, a blowlamp and a lot of knocking on wood ;)
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agree with tvm and john-f. if it ain't broke, don't fix it. there are far more accidents caused by bodged brake fluid changes than by leaving in old fluid. anyway, it is just another manufacturers' (and dealers') con to generate income.
If thats the case I would'nt bother changing any fluids in your car or the cambelt. Tyres, leave them until the carcases are showing through, MOTs are for idiots you know what you're doing. Insurance, why your a good driver. Its all one big con, you know best ;-)
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I've boiled fluid on,of all cars,a 2CV6,and that was newish fluid but it was one with inboard drum brakes.
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I would'nt bother changing any fluids in your car or the cambelt. Tyres, leave them until the carcases are showing through, MOTs are for idiots you know what you're doing.
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calm down dear dox.
first any sensible motorist will check their tyres, fluids, pressures, on a regular basis. and will repair and replace as necessary long before they reach a critical level.
there is no magic about 1 year, or 2 years, or 10,000 miles, or 6,000 miles, or 15,000 kilometres, or whatever figure people wish to pluck from the ether to set their servicing schedules by.
if you were on a planet where the year was 1200 days, you can bet that the scheduled interval for brake fluid change would not have said every two-third year = 800 days = nearly two earth years.
routine servicing intervals are arbitrarily decided by manufacturers based on keen-commercial and conservative-engineering judgement, with a huge safety margin built in while keeping a beady eye on profit and protecting their brand. if you forced manufacturers to sell cars with a free lifetime servicing package, you can bet your bottom dollar that the servicing needs would suddenly become less critical.
as for safety items, the mot is there to test all safety critical components. testing of brake fluid condition is not part of the mot. otherwise you would be required by health and safety law to change your brake fluid every two years.
qed.
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>>the mot is there to test all safety critical components
No, No, No, - the MOT checks **some** safety critical components - those which are specified by the MOT procedures *and* which are acessible without any dismantling.
To think that a car must be safe because it has an MOT (even a very recent one) doesn't logically follow - however, a car that has failed an MOT (other than on political test aspects like emissions) definitely does have a fault which impairs the safety of the vehicle. This logical subtelty is lost on most.
It really would be better for people to begin thinking of an MOT as a secondary inspection, to catch any obvious errors, missed by normal routine servicing and maintenance rather than as a primary means of ensuring vehicle safety.
Number_Cruncher
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And dont give me this "its hydroscopic" rubbish either, I bet no one has had brake failure caused by localised fluid boiling.
Not even when descending Alpine passes? This aspect aside, moisture in the brake fluid leads to internal corrosion.
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L\'escargot.
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