Fourtunately I learned in RWD drive cars, and mostly in evil handling Capris. Engine way in the front, no weight at the back, learning to handle oversteer was esential.
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Meh. When I was learning (1994) the "slower is safer" concept was very much amongst us. So I learned in a mk2 Fiesta diesel. Perhaps handling a slide in a fast RWD car should be part of the driving test. I could have used it, though it turns out that the "turn into the skid" rule is an instinct thing - lucky for me.
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Life is complex; it has real and imaginary parts.
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Borrowed a Montego turbo years ago and put my foot down pulling into a narrow car lined city street - that was hairy - never again!
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"Engine way in the front, no weight at the back, learning to handle oversteer was essential."
And a Renault Dauphine with all the weight at the back was possibly even worse!! Seemed to want to go backwards all the time!!
Phil
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The rear engine skoda would oversteer and understeer all at the same time!
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Early 3 series were interesting on wet roads...
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one advantage rwd has in bad weather/snowy roads is that you can put a bit of ballast over the driving wheels to aid traction,they are very differant so it just depends what the individual is happy with
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Fourtunately I learned in RWD drive cars, and mostly in evil handling Capris. Engine way in the front, no weight at the back, learning to handle oversteer was esential.
I owned a couple of Capri's - you could avoid oversteer with sensible driving (or provoke it easily if you wanted to) but the major problem I found was almost total lack of grip at the front, so they understeered terribly - in the wet they were truly scary. I had quite a significant crash in one, and I would have done the same in the other, if there hadn't been an open area of grass straight on from the bend it refused to steer around.
The last RWD Ford I had was a Sierra GLX, with its (then) newly introduced twin-cam 2 litre engine. Probably one of my favourite cars - it handled very well, but I had 2 big spins in that, luckily doing no damage to anything.
After quite a few yrs of FWD, I've recently bought a Merc - various 3 letter acronyms take care of things in normal driving, but I'm dreading snowy weather.
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I think things have changed in terms of skid safety in modern RWD cars. I took a driving course in Austria a few years ago and one of the exercises involved driving around sharp curves as fast as possible on a wet surface. The FWD drive cars obviously understeered more the faster you went, the surprise was trying an E46 BMW 320i. Even with the traction control switched off, I was disapointed to find that I could not get the back end to break away, the car remained neutral much longer than the FWD cars (and the 4WD Skoda Octavia for that matter) and eventually ran wide.
The only time I've ever experienced a brown trouser moment with a RWD car was in a Toyota MR2 about 10 years ago that swapped ends so quickly on a wet road I only realised what was happening once it had happened. Fortunately the road was wide and deserted and the car performed a 180 degree spin in its own length rather than going backwards through a hedge.
I would much rather have a RWD drive car, they drive better and have a smaller turning circle than FWD and for cold weather I use winter tyres.
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Interesting to read the many different definitions of "nicer to drive", utilization of space has certainly stumped me though.
I learned to drive in a RWD, albeit rather tame Vauxhall Vivas. Dad had a Rover V8 engined Victor that introduced me to oversteer at the tender age of 14 and whenever he was away, every corner on a neighbourhood dirt road had me slideways, rally style. I guess because of that early exposure to RWD cars I never thought of them as any more dangerous or difficult to drive than FWD. I certainly don't *feel* any safer in a FWD.
All the cars I have owned have been RWD, not necessarily because I had to have RWD, but more because the only cars I wanted were RWD. Thats about to change soon I imagine, as here in the UK, the only desirable RWD cars available are out of my financial reach. Not surpising then that there are some here who have never driven a RWD, but if you enjoy driving, I mean actually find it an entertaining exercise then you owe it to yourself to have a play in one.
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"Am I correct in thinking that in a FWD car, unless you have really made a mess of things, putting more throttle in will correct understeer as it pulls itself out?"
The key phrase hers is "really made a mess". If you HAVE made a real mess in a FWD car and you try accelerating into it, you will be in what my skid-pan instructor called THE KILLER SLIDE. This is so called because you will try harder and harder to control the skid in the same way (it's worked at slower speeds before, so why stop now?) and you will lose absolutely no speed as you slide in a straight line towards the tree on the outside of the bend.
Go on a skid-pan before you believe anyone who says this. I speak as someone who used to say it with full confidence that I was right. Then I got in a FWD car on a skid pan and tried it, only to find that I was totally, utterly and critically wrong in every possible respect.
A skid in a FWD car is terrifying when it gets hold. What you need to do at that point is completely against all your natural instincts. I can make it no clearer; you may well save your life if you listen to this and spend £70 or so. If this sounds too dour and scary, that's because it is. On the other hand, though, it's cracking good fun.
I did a course at Castle Coombe on a Saturday. On the Wednesday I was hit on the M3 and went sideways at 70 or so. The training worked and nothing too permanent happened to me.
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=16...1
V
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Barrelling into a corner in a ......
.... RWD car on a steady throttle, accelerating can induce understeer, i.e. the power through the rear wheels pushes the car straight ahead though more normally encourages the rear traction to break and hence power oversteer(1), this is corrected by opposite lock. Lifting off encourages the car to tighten it's line, lift off oversteer is not a factor due to engine braking being through the rear wheels.
.... FWD car on a steady throttle, accelerating induces understeer, i.e. the power through the driven wheels starts to break traction and car wants to go straight on(2), lifting off encourages the car to tighten it's line though in exceptional circumstances can introduce lift of oversteer(3) where the weight over the rear wheels lessens as the car slows (due to engine braking through the front wheels) at the same time as turning more sharply, this is corrected by opposite lock.
(1) Needs skill to control
(2) Easy to control, the instinct to lift off normally pulls it back into shape.
(3) Very unlikely so not an issue (though I experienced it in a Metro Turbo).
Hence FWD is generally considered as more fool-proof.
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"surprise was trying an E46 BMW 320i. Even with the traction control switched off, I was disapointed to find that I could not get the back end to break away"
Recipe
1. Take one powerful BMW, warm thoroughly throughout.
2. Find a nice quiet bit of road, drizzle some rain, gently sprinkle some accumilated grease, oil and brake dust.
3. Disconnect all DSC,ASC etc.
4. Drive around said bend at steadily increasing speeds.
Back end will eventually break away regardless of age.
Anyone who wants a demo drive see me after class.
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So without being a wimp, if I want to drive safely for the conditions, then it doesn't matter which wheels are driven does it?
If I want to really enjoy driving - I take it this means racing through country roads with the car just on the limit of grip and no more. Or, in other words, not driving safely.
Sorry if this sounds too boring.
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>>Recipe
1. Take one powerful BMW ...
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........ or a Dolomite Sprint, more power than grip though very controlable, steerable on the throttle, I used to drift mine around roundabouts, one or two I guess RF would know such as Six Cross Roads on the Chertsey to Woking road.
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or a Dolomite Sprint
Ahhhhhhhhhh yeessss. Superb cars...
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tinyurl.com/cews8
Oh no !! 1000 lines "I must not participate in e-bay searching whilst wearing rose tinted coloured glasses"
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Brings back memories! Mine was a '77 R plate in brown (Russet Brown IIRC) with a beige vinyl roof (inc folding sun roof) though the interior was just as the e-Bay car, rather rusty for it's age in '85 when I sold it to my neighbour (who in turn had just sold a MkII Lotus Twin Cam Cortina) he ran it for a couple of years before rebuilding the Sprint parts onto a new Dolomite shell which was, I think, the same red as the car on e-Bay.
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To get back on track I was reading that the latest Pontiac Grand Prix which has a small block V8 putting 300 odd bhp through the front wheels has as standard wider tyres on the front than the rear, it is supposed to handle quite well. I am not sure it is legal to do this in the UK (wider tyres on the front than the rear) though I guess if the car was type approved it would not be an issue.
20 odd years ago I seem to remember a mate got in trouble for having wider tyres on the front of a Mini than the rear, though it was at the same time OK to put fat tyres on the rear of Escorts and Capris.
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"Six Cross Roads"
Ah
1.5 complete circuits of that with the tail hanging out all the way. Capri 2.8i
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I would go for FWD anyday,propshaft tunnel reduced to minimum giving more interior space.traction better by a long way better than RWD *ie* its pulling not pushing.discusion for and against been going on for ages.Capri was ok good looking,but its handling in poor weather was diabolical at best!
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Steve
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As for the new breed of articulated buses that are becoming popular in our cities....
On most of these the engine is at the extreme rear and drives the rearmost axle - i.e. the 'trailing' section pushes the front part. This design allows a low floor throughout most of the vehicle.
Any bus drivers on here who've experienced one of these things going up a slippery hill. I wonder?
Cheers, SS
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You can't say that one is better than the other as there are so many different cases!
Are all rwd cars great? Try a Morris Marina
Are all fwd cars great? Try a Renault 21
Are all rear engined cars hopeless? Try a Renault 8
Should fwd cars have all the weight over the front wheels? That means the rear wheels do almost nothing under braking.
It's more complex than the pub experts would have you believe...
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Let's end the argument..... buy a Subaru.
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Let's end the argument..... buy a Subaru.
Justy?
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>> Let's end the argument..... buy a Subaru. Justy?
Hmm, I think not! Any of the others though.
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Agreed!
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Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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On a similar theme my first car was a Triumph Herald convertible ! Now that had absolutely no weight in the back at all. Found myself facing the wrong way more than once. Somewhat embarassingly right outside Farnham Station once with everybody waiting to be picked up off the fast train from Waterloo. (There was a small cobbled path across the road which set things in motion so to speak).
P
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On a similar theme my first car was a Triumph Herald convertible !
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Me too. Dark green, 1200cc of awesome power and Dunlop wide steel wheels. 2635KX, are you still out there?
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Hard to choose really. I have a Mondeo, which to my limited driving skills appears to handle very well and it has a reputation for doing so. Same as Mrs Etchells' MX5, again handles very well with a recognised history of doing so.
It is a case of each to their own. For me the MX5 edges the Mondeo, the steering is sharper than the old Alfa 155, I had years ago and it seems to handle better as a package overall. But then again I am not really comparing eggs with eggs.
Put it this way though, I am a lot happier hustling the MX5 through roundabouts and corners but I feel a lot more secure in the Mondeo.
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For winter driving in ice or snow: there is no contest.
Hill outside Burton on trent. 5 inches of snow.
BMW 525TD/Omega failed to get up. wheels spinning on worst section.
Rover 800 - got up - front wheels spinning.
ALl summer tyred.
Anyone ever driven a Mark 4 Granada in snow. Or any rwd Jaguar or BMW 3 series?
Or any fwd car with normal power (not 200+bhp.?
I would NEVER EVER drive a rwd car in snow without full winter tyres - as a minimum.
A Fwd car has a chance. A rwd on any slope with any dgeree of compacted snow? None.
Mind you I found a Triumph 2.5PI coped quite well if you drove with 2 wheels on the grass verge:-) but another story...
madf
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RWD + snow = great fun
RWD + Snow = mostly body-shop !
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Anyone ever driven a Mark 4 Granada in snow. Or any rwd Jaguar or BMW 3 series?
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Yep - over the last 9 years, a 316, a 323, a 530 and a 330. Still here to tell the tale, and no damage (so far, anyway!). Care is needed though - extreme care. Also, sometimes a careful choice of route can pay dividends ;-)
I admit that in serious white stuff, the 4WD 911 comes out. It may have an extra 100 bhp and 11" tyres but it does cope better. For us, though, the main problem is getting off a sloping drive. I once spent quite some time putting sand down before someone pointed out that it would have done more good in its bag, in the boot!
But, and these are two big buts;
- for me, the other 51 or so weeks of the year make up for the care that is required when all is white. That might not apply to you, which I accept.
- when the snow does come, 99% of the roads have a jam proceeding at 2mph in a rut that means RWD or FWD is a non-issue.
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Many drivers near us have fwd. titally great for country snow. Absolutely us for town snow as Stoke on trent is built on hills so snow + hills + no gritters or snowploughs = no go for everyone.
SWMBO once took 6 hours to drive 8 miles in Stoke in snow.. In the same weather I drove some 60 miles via Leek and Ashbourne (totally avoiding Stoke) in under 2 hours.. and got home first despite leaving 4 hours later than SWBO. She was NOT a happy bunny.
madf
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I much prefer RWD probably because I was weened on the system and feel attuned to the way they tend to react. Having said that, about the worst car I ever owned was a beast called a Renault Dauphine; rear engined rear wheel drive, one wet morning I put myself and car into a 6ft deep monsoon ditch (I was young and indestructable). Also it had a 6 volt electrical system: evil transport.
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Mine was the 13/60 rather tha the 12/50. If I recall it had a massive 53bhp ...... aaah happy days
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Mine was the 13/60 rather tha the 12/50. If I recall it had a massive 53bhp ...... aaah happy days
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All right, don't rub it in that you had the performance version!
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Nah that was the 2.0l Vitesse - frightening !
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Nah that was the 2.0l Vitesse - frightening !
Many years ago a mate had one of these -RWD- white convertible & with I recall a straight six egine. Very few things on road then could touch it & compared to what else was about it looked the business.
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Got a pair of Vredestein Quatrac 2, all seasons tyres, fitted to the front of my Passat. Went to play in the drifts on our odd snowy day in the Peak District.
Soon ran out of ground clearance but the grip was noticeably better than the summer tyres.
I've left them on all summer and the wear rate is no worse than the previous brands.The handling seems fine in the wet/dry as well with summer tyres on the rear.
A friend who owns a Morgan and a BMW Touring, slates RWD in the snow.He was a sponsored trials driver and knows his stuff when the going gets slippery.
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I wasna fu but just had plenty.
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I prefer RWD.
More control at lower speeds, less twitchy at high speeds. Never had much trouble with snow, and I used to live in the Highlands of Scotland. Had a little trouble getting over a snow drift ONCE which FWD cars negotiated a little easier.
I only ever lost the back end once (diesel oil), and got it back very quickly
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RWD in the snow is scary, blissful the rest of the time.
But... if it's that snowy is your journey really necessary?
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When I was a student and lived in Banffshire (North of Aberdeenshire), I found an Austin A30 with snow tyres on the rear would get through snow up to 18 inches deep. Not much else would. RWD. snow tyres, high ground clearnace, narrow section tyres and about 34 bhp made all the difference..
I was the last car to get through from Montrose to Aberdeen one winter snowstorm, the following Rover 2000 got stuck in the drift I had (only just) navigated , it blocked the road and that was it until the ploughs came...
FWD with snow tyres in a Mini was much easier...
madf
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Today, at least, RWD is or virtually non-existent for small to medium sized cars. The obvious reason is that much more space is made available inside the passenger compartment with a transverse engine and front wheel drive. The Mini would never have come about without this arrangement and it really is the only sensible arrangement for small saloons.
As far as the argument about which is better in snow is concerned, I wouldn't choose to go out in snow without four wheel drive anyway. Given no choice, I would prefer FWD.
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I prefer a good handling, easily adjustable FWD small/medium car and RWD for large heavy car. For road and road rallies I prefer FWD, though RWD is better for track racing.
With the Sierras I had, I found that once it has gone through around 45deg in an oversteer in wet mud or snow, there is no way to correct it. Whereas in a powerful FWD I can still drag the front wheels round to correct the slide and you do not have to back off the throttle, even at around 60deg. Also, if you use the handbrakes, you don't have to declutch in FWD but you have to in RWD.
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BMWs are poor in the snow. That's why I have a Landie - which isn't.
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"Also, if you use the handbrakes, you don't have to declutch in FWD but you have to in RWD."
Gazza,
I'd be interested in knowing your technique in a FWD with a handbrake that operates on the front wheels!! (á la BX!!)
Phil
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Ahhh... I have never driven a car whose handbrakes are applied to the front wheels. I've never driven a Citroen, except the C5, and I didn't try handbrake turn as the saleman was next to me.
G
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I didn't try handbrake turn as the saleman was next to me. G
You should have done - it's what test drives are for
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The original question was which was "nicer", which I can only interpret as more fun to drive. I venture to sum up the discussion as amounting to RWD has it. Whether it is more "useful" in some odd circumstance is not relevant to the question.
However, the reason FWD has become so common has little to do with these issues; it is because FWD is cheaper to build.
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