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Saw a new Passat on the road recently. It looked a bit bling for me (and I like chrome). A4 much classier IMO
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think the passat looks nice and the price over the a4 looks very very tempting!be a fool and pay audi prices.christ dont suggest a mondildo?
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think the passat looks nice and the price over the a4 looks very very tempting!be a fool and pay audi prices.christ dont suggest a mondildo?
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I take your point on the Audi pricing, however I have an A4 Avant now and can see where the extra money went over the VW, as the whole car feels though its made from granite and nothing whatsoever rattles, even thogh the old Passat was good, even that had querks that the Audi doesnt have.
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Make sure the Passat is available with the engine you want. I got the impression (may be wrong) that the biggest diesel engine was 2.0 litres. The A4 has both 2.5 and 3.0 TDI, which I think are worth the extra they cost. They've also ditched the 2.3 petrol V5, which was perhaps less of a bargain though it made a nice noise.
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I can't see the point of the bigger diesel engines, given that the 1.9 TDI 130 or the 2.0 TDI 140 give excellent performance and fuel economy in their own right. I hear that the 2.5 diesel is only marginally better in terms of performance and is obviously thirstier. This is only my personal view as I appreciate that some pepole still want berserk performance even after having chosed a diesel engine in the first place !
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The Passat 2.0 TDi will be available in a 170 PS version making the 2.5 TDi virtually redundant. This engine has been tested to over 200 PS so plenty of years of development left yet!
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The 1.9 is good for over 230hp - albe it off road !!!
K2
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I expect the 2.5TDI A4 to die out quietly when the current AllRoad is discontinued. It's an older generation engine and prone to abysmal low end Turbo lag. New AllRoad and Cab due mid next year will negate any need for this engine, given that the 2.0TDI will equal it in power by then.
The point of the bigger engines is all down to the number of people you carry/load. The 2.0TDI IS enough in an A4 or an A6 with just one up. With 4 or 5 in and a boot full though you have to work the 2.0TDI reasonably hard for good performance. It's hard to describe but once you've had more you wouldn't want less kind of thing. Also the 3.0TDIs are hardly abysmal. I've driven the A8, A6 and A4 3.0TDI and can better 40mpg in all of them, and over 45 from the A4. Actually the A8 betters the A6 but that's due to the Aluminium body mainly.
Regards
Chris
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The point of the bigger engines is all down to the number of people you carry/load. The 2.0TDI IS enough in an A4 or an A6 with just one up. With 4 or 5 in and a boot full though you have to work the 2.0TDI reasonably hard for good performance.
It's all about torque, the 2.5 Tdi is no more torquey than the 2.0 TDi, and less and so than the Ford and BMW 2.0 ltr diesels.
I don't accept the point about the 2.0 Tdi not being enough for the A4/A6 if loaded, after all it produces more torque than the 3.0 petrol!
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Anyone else think VW have made a car that looks like the bonnet is permanently open?
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Anyone else think VW have made a car that looks like the bonnet is permanently open?
Oh no! VW haven't gone into partnership with Vauxhall have they?
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"I expect the 2.5TDI A4 to die out quietly when the current AllRoad is discontinued. It's an older generation engine and prone to abysmal low end Turbo lag."
I used to think my 2.5 TDI had a bit of turbo lag (never abysmal) but like most diesels it took up to 10,000 miles to loosen up. It's fine now and with the multitronic it's a lot faster than the 130 bhp 1.9 that I tried, and very much quieter and more refined.
On pure performance, I agree that a 2.0 170 bhp should be the equal of the 2.5, although I would want to see the torque figure which is what counts more than pure bhp.
I'll have to see if I can run to a 3.0 next time. At the moment the 3.0s all come with 4wd which is expensive and which I don't need. It would be logical for Audi eventually to drop the 2.5 and offer the 3.0 with a choice of fwd and 4wd: but that doesn't necessarily mean they will.
(I thought the Allroad was an A6)
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On pure performance, I agree that a 2.0 170 bhp should be the equal of the 2.5, although I would want to see the torque figure which is what counts more than pure bhp.
Yes, torque is what counts, the previous 2.5 TDi produced 330nm torque where as the latest 2.5 produces 350nm (same as a Mondeo TDCi 130!) which is 30nm more than the 2.0 TDi (320nm), chances are then that the 170 PS 2.0 will be as torquey as the 2.5.
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I have an A3 Sportback and last weekend got in a number of new Golfs. The difference in the design and quality of the interiors was astounding. Even my other half who has no interest in cars was forced to say how much nicer the A3 is on the inside than the Golf.
I also got in a new Passat and the interior was not exactly special. There is no interior like an Audi interior imho!
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Avant,
If I remember rightly you have an automatic A4? If so the multitronic does much to mask the lag on this engine. In the manual cars I find it possible to get caught out in a gear too high which for drivers not used to the car can be embaressing or risky. You are of course absolutely right about it taking over 10k for most engines to loosen up. It's unlikely that the 3.0TDI A4 will come in FWD for the same reason as the new A6 2.7TDI Autos are Quattro and Tiptronic not FWD/Multitronic: too much torque. You'd be shredding tyres on a daily basis not to mention gear trains trying to put that much torque down through just two wheels.
The Allroad is an old style A6, there is a new Allroad on the way, launch engines to be 3.0TDI, 3.2FSI and 4.2FSI. Torque counts more than BHP in terms of pull certainly, though gearing plays a part and the 2.0TDI might well produce *slightly* more torque than the 3.2FSI but the 3.2 is geared lower and is producing more or less the same torque but with more power (as it's revving higher) at motorway speed. I was driving an S4 Cabrio back today and at 70 you could just squeeze the peddle in 6th and get a diesel-like acceleration, or you could drop to 3rd and go stupid. Of course the 2.0TDI is enough in most circumstances, for me though I'd like a little more, mainly for overtaking. (Sorry about the use of a naughty word, of course I should sit like a good boy at 38mph in an NSL rather than break the NSL and get past someone slower)
Regards
Chris
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It's unlikely that the 3.0TDI A4 will come in FWD for the same reason as the new A6 2.7TDI Autos are Quattro and Tiptronic not FWD/Multitronic: too much torque. You'd be shredding tyres on a daily basis not to mention gear trains trying to put that much torque down through just two wheels.
IIRC there is not an A6 2.7 TDi auto, if you want an auto you need to go to the 3.0 which is 4wd as standard. The 2.7 Tdi puts 380nm through the front wheels, a Mondeo 2.2 TDCi puts 400nm through the front wheels so a heavier car such as the A6 should be OK with the 3.0's 450nm in front wheel drive configuration. Though I agree it is unlikely Audi will do it. Re gear trains remember there are many RWD cars putting a lot more than 450nm through 2 wheels.
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Nope there is now a 2.7TDI Auto Quattro. I know. Drove one today... working for an Audi dealer has the odd advantage ;-)
The reason Audi have given us for not doing a 3.0 FWD car is that the strains placed on the transmissions (manual/multitronic) would be too great to be acceptable for long term reliability.
Regards
Chris
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forgive me piggy backing on this thread ...
cjehuk, who can tell me if is it feasible to "soften" the suspension on an A3 sport tdi (quattro) by changing the shock absorbers?
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El Hacko - I went for the SE and put the 5 spoke star 17s on it (for looks!) because the Sport was way too firm a ride, too crashy. It has lowered sports suspension whereas the SE doesn't.
I expect cjhuk can advise you of feasibilty\cost to soften the ride on your Sport, presumably a change of dampers\springs???
Register (free) on www.audi-sport.net and look at the 8P A3/Sportback Forum. Guys are always talking talking about modding their set-ups, often with after market shocks, though I guess you'd need to find out about warranty implications if you did that. There's also a forum on there just about handling. A lot of knowledge and experience re the A3.
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Muchas gracias, Hombre - sounds useful site, will explore. Got 6 mths left of 3 year warranty and one issue might be: would any suspension change affect quattro system?
Love the car, but wish I cld "SE" it for the sake of my 63 year old bones!
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Agree, you would need to take proper advice re the quattro system as I guess (?) it could make things more complicated? I really don't know. You could try customer.services@audi.co.uk
There are also some Audi Techs on www.audi-sport.net. It is a feiendly site with plenty of knowledgeable people. Many of the guys 'fiddle' with their new cars, most commonly lowering and there are some real experts on there.
I'd get advice from a number of Audi dealers first (make sure they all say the same!) and then you know what is what and can then perhaps talk to a suspension\tuning specialist, there are apparently plenty around.
I checked with cust services b4 specifying the optional 17" for my SE and they were very helpful, though that was a factory optional extra and mine is not a quatty! Mine is a Sportback and I understand from some articles it has diff suspension to the older style grille A3s but that the new A3s with the same grille as the Sportback that are now coming through have the improved suspension set-up as on the Sportbacks.
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I can't think of a reason why you couldn't change out the shocks, but I wouldn't think it was financially worth it. You'd do better to trade in the Quattro for a 2WD SE spec. I wanted to retrofit Cruise to my A3 Sport and while its £180 at factory, despite the wiring loom to the ECU being there, to retrofit was nearly £600. I didn't have it done. Trade in will lose you less money. You'd probably spend a four figure sum changing the suspension and lose the same again at PX time.
With regard to chipping we shipped out a pre-chipped A4 Avant 3.0TDI v6 this weekend. Chipping company reckons they got 250Hp and 400lb.ft from it. I can't see anything wrong with chipping engines in the UK where our diesel is good (as it is in most of western Europe)
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Nope there is now a 2.7TDI Auto Quattro. I know. Drove one today... working for an Audi dealer has the odd advantage ;-)
It's not on the website yet?
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Sorry HJ, I actually meant the Audi website, I was not infering critisism of your excellent resource.
Regards.
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I think the introduction of the quattro for the 2.7 is a good call. I generally bomb up and down the A3 and M25 and there's no problem but recently on holiday I really threw the car round a few tight mountain roads and powering out of corners I noticed occasionally the wheels scrabbling for grip. I know it's an extreme example but I was conscious that for anything but straight line driving, this amount of torque must be close to the edge of what can be put through the front wheels whilst retaining decent control.
A colleague has had his Golf tdi chipped and he reckons that torque is up to 400nm! I don't know if the figure is BS but the performance is blinding but he concedes that he's had a few handling scares when pushing it on twisty roads.
IIRC the 400 figure for the Mondeo is only for the overboost and the standard output is considerably lower and seemed to handle great when I tried it. Just as on the smaller Ford diesel, the boost is a hoot, but I personally wouldn't want to be trying a rapid change of direction whilst it was active. OTOH, maybe I'm just overly cautious.
I've only sat in the Passat and have been impressed with the interior. IMO Audi interiors are a step up from any of the competition and you can see how the A4 is better quality and more solid in this regard, but the Passat is still way better than anything else in this class. It's also got a really big cabin and if the reviews are correct in terms of cabin noise then it'll be a great place to be and arguably quieter than the A4 which has a bit too much wind noise for my liking. The option of DSG and the lower price also swing the argument back towards the VW. The estate look even better if you could wait. The only worry is that might start to focus on small and admittedly very silly things which won't be as nice as the Audi.Needs to be balanced up and put in perspective by a test drive. Good luck
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IIRC the 400 figure for the Mondeo is only for the overboost and the standard output is considerably lower and seemed to handle great when I tried it. Just as on the smaller Ford diesel, the boost is a hoot, but I personally wouldn't want to be trying a rapid change of direction whilst it was active. OTOH, maybe I'm just overly cautious.
The point about the Ford system is that it is there whenever you need it, it is not an overboost button or such, so the 350nm (2.0) and 400nm (2.2) are real figures, Transient Overboost is basically marketing speak.
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I'm surprised. I actually recall thinking that in non-overboost mode the Mondeo didn't feel nearly as lively as the Audi, but the overboost, short though it was, was certainly a fantastic kick in the pants. If the normal torque is 400 what's the overboost?
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Actually thinking about it, surely it is a button so to speak as in flooring the accelerator allows the engine to work harder than normal for a brief period. I can't recall how long the boost lasted but in both the Mondeo and Jag, I'm sure that I was not allowed to drive the engine at this rate for any length of time. This seems a good explanation www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=21505
Just looking at the Ford website the torque figures for the ST Tdci are 360 normal and 400 with transient boost.
Returning to the main point about FWD and torque, I recall enjoying the ferocity of the Mondeo's overboost but being glad that I was overtaking in a straight line and not negotiating some tight turns. Likewise with my own car I felt that in terms of control, I wouldn't have wanted any more power going simply through the front wheels coming out of those corners
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Having done 93000 miles in my Ghia X TDCi 2.0 130 I really don't think it is limited, basically it has stonking torque whenever you need it. That being said I can't imagine needing to spend 30 secs or more within the rev range that max torque is produced because the car will have accelerated beyond the revs that max torque is produced (hope I am making sense). As I said before, I think the overboost is more a marketing exercise by way of highlighting the fact that the TDCi's (2.0 130 and 2.2 155) produce more torque than their competitors. After all the TDCi 2.0 115 is said to have Transient Overboost as well however it's max torque is far less than the 130 so would not need to be controlled or limited by way of protecting the engine etc in any way.
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I think that we may be talking at cross purposes and I'm not clear where your car comes into it. I'm not for a minute suggesting that your car does not have stonking torque, indeed like pretty much every decent sized modern turbo diesel, it can provide an abundance of it for a limitless period period whilst with the currect rev range. What I'm talking about is the transient boost as a physical phenomena as outlined in the link I provided which refers to a brief turbo boost over and beyond the norm and which I have experienced firstly in the X-type and then in the ST Tdci. I think that your marketing take is correct in that claims made about peak torque which might be given are disingenuous given that they are only available for brief spurts. That's said the boost it's a physical fact rather than a marketing invention and whilst I thought it great fun and can see the practical benefit of it, the 400 figure you gave is not what the engine provides constantly but the briefly boosted figure and outside of normal running parameters. I haven't driven your model so TBH I don't even know if your engine or any of the others has the transient boost facility. The Mondeo section on the Ford website only refers to transient boost in respect of the 2.2tdci so I honestly can't comment on other engines. Is the link explaining the overboost wrong? I'm not technician and just out of interest would be grateful for clarification of the facility if anyone knows.
The basic point is that IME the 380 range seems to be on the limit of what I would want to be putting down simply through the front wheels in anything but straight line driving. I had an extensive drive of the ST tdci and it handled well on twisty roads as it should do as, not using the boost facility, the max torque output was 360. I'm telling you, I would not want to have tried any tricky manouvres with the overboost on.
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My point is that even if the Transient Overboost is for a limited period and outside normal parameters I can't see how max torque can be used for more than 30 secs at a time because within the 30 sec period the car will have accelerated beyond the point where max torque is produced.
"I would not want to have tried any tricky manouvres with the overboost on."
The thing is it is not a matter of being on or off, it is there when you want it under you right foot.
For info the 2.2 is quoted at 360/400nm, the 2.0 130 at 330/350 and the 115, I think, 280/300.
If the 2.0 130 is able to produce 330nm all day why does the 2.0 115 need Transient Overboost to produce 300? Truth is it doesn't hence my suggestion that Transient Overboost is marketing speak.
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Hello Martin,
Reading it again I am sorry about my last rather unclear reply to your eloquent post.
In a nut shell I guess what I am saying is that if you drive a 2.2 TDCi you have 400nm under your right foot, if it is a 2.0 130 then you have 350nm under your right foot, irrespective of the technology or marketing speak, both are class leading figures.
Regards.
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Your Mondeo has a fine 2.0 diesel engine which for 99% of the time is stronger than some competitor?s engines and weaker than others, it scarcely matters either way as they all deliver similar performance. But with 330 or even the short burst of 350, I fail to see what relevance your car has to this discussion which is about the higher limits of torque which can be put through a front wheel drive car and still maintain good handling?
a
The 400 of the ST tdci is however relevant because for the brief period that it was available, IME, it felt like the front wheels were happy to go straight ahead but would have fought me if I tried to throw it round a tight bend. That is why whether or not this the car is class leading during this brief boost, it doesn't matter if the wheels can't transmit all this power where you want it. That's why IMO you can't use the temporary boost figure of the Ford or indeed the chipped tdi of my colleague, as a rational for putting down this kind of power simply through the front wheels. On a few occasions I felt the same scrabbling for grip on corners in my own car which is why I'm wondering, with current technology, if this is on or near the limit of how much power can be put down simply through the front wheels whilst maintaining handling.
Basically any of the current crop of diesels can pump out lots more power as the chip guys prove, but outside of overtaking and short races, what's under your right foot is only wholly useful if it can be totally controlled in any circumstance.
I'm guessing that is why Audi haven't released a FWD 3.0tdi and why they seen a market for the 2.7tdi quattro.
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I agree. It's all about grip. On a wet road a 2.7TDI dances to the beat of the traction control if you put your foot down hard at 1800rpm. Do that in the 3.0TDI and it just accelerates away smoothly. I find my A3 2.0TDI can easily be made to scrabble for grip in the right road conditions. Modern diesels put a lot of torque down and sometimes there just isn't enough wheel. The Touran is worse though, that has skinny tyres which accentuate the problem when cornering, though the additional weight helps in a straight line.
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I fail to see what relevance your car has to this discussion which is about the higher limits of torque which can be put through a front wheel drive car and still maintain good handling?
Sorry Martin however you are out of order, I pointed out that the 2.2 TDCi produces 400nm, you suggested that it not always available, I have simply used the other TDCis as examples that this is not the case.
I repeat my initail point on this - the 2.7 Tdi puts 380nm through the front wheels, a Mondeo 2.2 TDCi puts 400nm through the front wheels so a heavier car such as the A6 should be OK with the 3.0's 450nm in front wheel drive configuration.
Put it another way the 2.0 TDCi produces only 8% less torque than the 2.7 TDi and is substantially lighter though copes admirably well.
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Cheddar this is getting a bit silly. I at least have driven the 2.2tdci, the 2.7 and the 3.0tdi and I've posted my opinion and Cjehuk backs echoes my thoughts in respect of the Audis. How on earth am I "out of order" by stating that the 400nm is a temporary, transient boost, as clearly stated on Fords website?
I honestly think that you have got to emotionally disengage from what is after all, like Audis, BMWs, GMs etc. just a mass produced consumer product; you've chosen a Mondeo, it's a good car, get on with, or over, it. It is none of my business if you have issues or insecurities about your choice of car, but really your Mondeo is as utterly irrelevant to this discussion as my granney's Clio and the figures you quote in respect of it really meaningless. You appear determined to turn discussion on FWD torque limitation around to your vehicle, to find and stridently defend criticism of your car and yet as far as I can see the only shortcomings I've found and stated have been with my own car and how it's power could be better implemented via the quattro system.
The A6 3.0tdi 450 torque output is a constant output and IME would struggle with simply FWD to get it's power onto the tarmac in any controllable manner, unlike the Mondeo which although it has a facility which temporarily boosts the torque to 400 generally operates at 360nm where it has naturally no handling problems with it's FWD. Feel free to bang on about your Mondeo but I've made my point and am done with this.
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Martin,
You are completely missing the point, the discussion is around how much torque can a front wheel drive chassis be expected to cope with, I made the point that the 2.2 TDCi handles 400nm very well even though it is lighter than an A6 hence an FWD A6 should not have too much trouble with 450nm.
And no the 2.2 TDCi does not have 'only' 360nm most of the time, the full 400nm is available by depressing the accelerator, if you don't depress the accelerator you dont get max torque, same as any other car in that regard.
As for:
>>I honestly think that you have got to emotionally disengage .... It is none of my business if you have issues or insecurities about your choice of car ..... You appear determined to turn discussion on FWD torque limitation around to your vehicle ....
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With respect what rubbish!, I am not critising the Audi or even comparing it to the Mondeo, to the contary I am simply using the Mondeo as an example as to why I reckon a FWD 3.0 TDi A6 would not be unwieldy. The reference to my own vehicle and lesser powered TDCi's was only to correct your assertion regarding the meaning of overboost.
The A6 3.0tdi 450 torque output is a constant output
No! it is not constant, it is 450nm when the driver uses the required amount of accelerator at the required amount of revs.
unlike the Mondeo which although it has a facility which temporarily boosts the torque to 400 generally operates at 360nm where it has naturally no handling problem
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No! it is 400nm when the driver uses the required amount of accelerator at the required amount of revs. The only choice is how much throttle to use, there is now switch or dial enable selection of 360 or 400nm.
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