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What qualifications must you have to work as an vehicle engineer in a dealership?
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There aren't any formal quals needed at all, though larger companies who go for quality awards such as ISO 9000 will only get it if they have a qualified workforce, ie a recognised qualification. MOT testers are now expected to have an NVQ L3 or equivalent, and some years experience. Sorry, cannot remeber how many. It about 4 I think.
Mike
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So the average bloke in the local main dealer, say Ford.
Can you assume he's had a couple of years of formal training?
What about an AA guy? Qualified or not?
What qualifications are there?
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Dave,
"Vehicle engineer"? Do you mean "mechanic" or "technician"? There is a great debate at the moment about what constitutes an engineer. Most of the "engineers" I know, and I include myself hate the way the term engineer has been hijacked by all and sundry, for example:
Heating engineer (Plumber)
Waste disposal engineer ( Dustbin man)
Software engineer (Computer programmer)
to, we think, make their job sound of a higher status. "Engineering" has many branches, mechanical, electrical and marine being just a few. But the majority of these are at a high academic standard, someone who repairs cars is a fitter, mechanic or technician not an engineer.
Does the guy who collects the money at the cinema call himself an accountant? Engineers are at the same level or higher as Chartered Accountants or Solicitors and Doctors. Unfortunately as we just get on with our jobs and try to make or supply the goods and equipment society needs rather than self-promoting ourselves, we now find ourselves in a position where seemingly anyone can call themselves an "Engineer"
Sorry Dave, rant over but you did hit a very raw nerve!
Regards
Bill Doodson
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Bill,
Not exactly a raw nerve this end, more respectful acceptance. I chose to "retire" from an engineering industry where most of the people at my level and above were either very long time served or chartered/qualified.
I have taken up work that now means I repair/maintain/diagnose/fit with my own hands. This is no less credible and I have the respect of qualified colleagues as, by their own admission, they can't/wouldn't wish to attempt to deal with these complicated modern vehicles.
The defenition of an engineer includes "a person who makes or repairs engines, a person who maintains machines.
I fully respect the extra status and training of your position but just look at the posts of Adam Going or Andrew Mooney (the TuneUp boys) when someone is stuck with a modern car system. Their understanding of electromechanical devices should make you happy to be associated with them.
On all my headed notepaper/invoices it says D J Woollard (Motor Engineer). I think that is a fair description of the way I maintain peoples cars.
Still happy to respectfully call you "genius", as a marine man in particular.
Regards,
David
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The term engineer does not derive from someone who works with engines, or even mends things, rather from a root (latin, I think) that has become Engineur, Ingenur, Ingenier etc, which is someone who "has ideas". English seems to have subverted the meaning from the rest of the civilised world (again!). In the rest of Europe, certainly, and possibly elsewhere, an engineer has the same status as a doctor or barrister. Moves are afoot to try and bring such status to the UK to try and stem the terminal decline in our engineering industries (what there are left). The Engineering Council has been proposing for sometime that only those with the required qualifications would be allowed to call themselves engineers. These qualifications would be a minimum of a relevant degree or sufficient experience such that the relevant Chartered Institute (mechanical, electrical, chemical, marine etc.) would offer Chartered Engineer status. It is my understanding that this is to become, at some point, (or may already have become) a legal requirement. The discussion in the trade mags on this is rather tedious so I tend to skim over them, but that is my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong.
I can understand Bill's point - it peeves me when I say I'm an electronic and electrical engineer and the response I get is "oh, do you mend tellys?". There is nothing wrong with mending tellys (or anything else for that matter), but that is not the job of an engineer, just as policing the streets is not the job of a solicitor. A lot of engineers feel that they should not have to continually justify their professional position. Professional in the true sense of the word - professing to having a deep and fundamental understanding of the principles and foundations of a vocational discipline, rather than professional as in footballer/insurance salesman etc.
Hope I haven't offended anyone ;o).
Ash
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That's fine Ash (and Bill), I know there are many who feel like you. Some very very strongly!
No-one who is a "proper" Engineer needs to justify his/her position. Just look at your salary slip, company car and daily high level contacts.
As I said I'm OK with your comments and at least, with the PC, it will only take 10sec to change my headings if the EEC make the ruling. No need for the £75 stationary pack at the printers.
But D J Woollard (Bodger), not quite the same is it?
David
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I know plenty of engineers who are also bodgers, or is that bodgers who are also engineers ;o).
Ash.
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you say it means someone who 'has ideas', does that mean i can be a inventive engineer.
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There are formal qualifications for a Vehicle Technician.
They can take BTEC, City & Guilds examss/courses at the local Technical College (as I did) and gain a firm grounding in vehicle technology.
What I look for in a Modern Vehicle Technician is a consientious person with some initiative, with common sense and most importantly, experience.
Qualifications on paper often mean nothing when it comes to practical experience.
Saying that, I have got the *best* Modern Apprentice in my workshop.
Taken on as a 16 year old on work experience - he has been trained by MG Rover at their training establishment. It's not a cheap thing to do - it costs thousands to train him, but the rewards he will bring in 2-4 years time will bear the real fruits for me. He is currently 80% efficient on his jobs, there is not much he cannot cope with. Not bad for a 17 year old.
There is a shortage of good vehicle technicians these days - could this be the reason for some of the shoddy work we see?
An interesting aside to note - where have all the basics gone? We had a 1.0 Metro (!!) in for a service last week - valve clearances and contact breakers and all. Guess what? He was totally lost! Apparently, after a call to the training centre Manager, it transpired that these fundamantal subjects are not covered in the course!
Guess what they are covering in their next 2 week block?
You need to have a firm understanding of some of the basics (even though if they are 10 years out of date, methinks) to work on todays electronic systems.
All technicians are required to attend Manufacturer traing courses as and when - together with our Autoclimate Air Conditioning Training, July 2001 carried 8 training days between 4 technicians!
If you want to remain at the forefront of vehicle technology, with todays multiplexed wiring systems etc., then there is no substitute for continual learning.
Even myself, as the Service & Aftersales Manager, I still do technical training both in the form of manufacturer correspondence courses and formal training. It's no good talking to customers if you have no idea about what you're talking about. The same goes for my Service Advisors - they reguarly attend new model training so that they fully understand the products (The new MG's being an example)
Rgds
David
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Well said Fred - exactly!
David
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Hi
After reading through the posts on this thread I can see some nerves have been touched!.
As an engineer (yes a proper one) it does anoy me that the guy who fixes the washing machine or services the car is an engineer.
For the record, to becomes a chartered engineer (in electrical or electronics) you need a Masters degree and 4 years experience.
In this country we have two problems, a lack of competent 'technicans' AND a lack of good 'engineers'.
I work for a large motor manufactuer as a 'engineer'. I work on 'leading edge' projects which need very highly qualified and skilled people (most have Phd's). We need these people (and more of them) otherwise this country will have no capability to design and develop, with only a future as an assembly line when labour is cheap (e.g. the nissan sunderland plant which may close as costs are too high).
Having said that, I don't know the first thing about servicing a car! All the engineers I work with are trained in the basics and understand how and why things work, but not hands on servicing.
A competent vehichle technican which can diagnose faults, service and maintain cars, and report potential design faults is worth their weight in gold and I wish there were more of them.
As a note:
Henry Royce always signed his name H. Royce (mechanic).
Andrew
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My understanding is that if you want to become Chartered in electronics now you need an MEng rather than a BEng, but that only changed in the last couple of years and is not retrospective. The MEng is not the same as a Masters program - a Masters is usually technical, basically more of the same as a BEng but different/harder (ish), whereas the extra year spent on the MEng is entirely made up of management functions (case studies, group work etc.). When doing a PhD a Masters is merely a conversion course which is not particularly relevant if the PhD follows work done for a BEng, but may be a requirement if one is changing speciality and/or institution.
Ash
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the education industry (uni's, colleges and prof institutions) are in my experience very out of touch with the real world
chartered status doesnt prove anything, and neither does Phd or even degree over HND, or apprenticeship
good old experience, and most importantly who you are lucky enough to work with in the first few years of your career are far more important indicators
a good mechanic is worth his weight in gold
in a leading multi-national engineering company one of the best things is the foreign managers who dont understand you working class accent and the college you went to, but rather judge you on ability and results
brits are far too up their own a**e and sit around in coffee rooms claiming superiority cos their parents could afford to send them through college a few more years... it doesnt prove anything
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also go around a few leading engineering companies, and you'll be surprized at the number of cases where the chief techie and/or senior managers started on the shop floor (or similarly not started where you would expect)
its good fun being the best engineer in a place with lots of oxbridge (and similar) phd's and chartered boys running around doing what you tell them...
you sensitive chartered boys should reflect on this, and concentrate on being good at what you do rather than harping on about a bit of paper you were given ages ago...
etc etc etc
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With respect your outburst seems to have little to do with my point, and appears to be written by an outsider. My point was that it is legal requirement to have a certain set of qualifications to be able to call yourself an engineer. That had nothing more to do with being a car mechanic other than the title had been used erroneously in a posting, someone else had taken up the point, and I added my two penn'orths worth. Do you expect your GP/lawyer/barrister/vet/accountant to have a minumum set of qualifications? I would think so, so why not an engineer? Having a degree/PhD or whatever over an HND/apprenticeship does have a point - being able to correctly/legally use the title engineer. As a gross generalisation, if you've got an HND/apprenticeship you are not in the same industry - that was Bill's point, engineers are not car mechanics with bits of paper and delusions of grandeur, they are involved in a totally DIFFERENT industry/profession. The only problem is one of recognition - those not in the industry tend to clump (falsely) all the afore-mentioned groups into one.
As a general rule if you mend it, you are a mechanic/technician. If you designed it, you're an engineer.
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um i dont agree
as someone who was allowed to take all of the exams for a very technical msc, and got very exceptional marks - marked with all the other student papers - but could not be considered for an msc award because "you need a first degree to be awarded this msc" i don't find your faith in bits of paper very inspiring, the educational establishment needs to sort stupid situations like this out (don't just stop people sitting the exams!)
as for "charted" this is essentially demonstrating your experience, having a few references, and maybe sitting through a review with some already charted bods - there are many who get through this system who are frankly very poor engineers (by general consensus), and since i have had charted bods work for me who were part of the professional bodies review panels i know a little of how this works
if you work on a big multi-disciplinary engineering project, you will often find chief engineer is not chartered - this goes in all branches of the profession
medicine is a heavily regulated bueurocratically organised profession, and not at all how typical free market projects/industries work... some of these differences are why the medical industry fails the country... too much dominated by academics etc
and since you ask if i was in a car crash i would prefer a well trained para-medic than an average gp and if i was asked to set up a big medical facility a lot of the senior jobs would go to nurses
this is a rant, so what... i'm just a little tired of the bar room "i'm a charted engineer i'm better than you" nonsense, in the same way that police drivers saying "im a grade one driver im better than you" upsets... real leaders in any field do not need to be condescending, and a little bit of humility would go a long way
yes its a bit of a diversion from the "what qualifications does a garage mechanic need" question, but its relevant comment on the educational/academic/training industry in this country
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How can I make myself understood any clearer??? I was quoting requirements from published documents, not opinions, mine or any body else's. I did not state whether I supported any of those particular requirements, or whether I thought they were good or bad. A car mechanic is not an engineer, nor is an engineer a car mechanic. They are different. Understand? That was/is my point. Is that so hard to grasp, without bouncing off at tangents?
When you're man enough to use a real email address perhaps you'll actually read the submissions and think a bit about what you saying.
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His Lordship always says that the ONLY way to learn is through personal experience..................
................and the BEST way to learn is through everybody else's.
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His Lordship is starting one if anyone is interested.
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It would seem that my post to poor Dave who has only had a couple of "proper replies" has set on a larger thread than I would have thought. I replied to David Woolards post but used his email address rather than than through the forum, mistake! so here is what I sent him:
David
Thanks for your comments; you are quite correct of course that there are people in "engineering" who are QBE (Qualified By Experience) and I certainly don?t wish to denigrate their achievements, as I am one. I am only qualified to a professional level within marine engineering with a Second Class Certificate of Competency (Motor) issued by the then Dept of Trade. This is a professional qualification in marine engineering for sea going engineers. Who are really very well qualified fitters or technicians. I suppose the point I was trying to make without spending all night at the keyboard was that ?Engineers? who have spent a long time gaining qualifications, and as you will have seen a long time progressing through a profession that requires many years experience to progress up the tree, find that people in ?lesser? occupations then feel that they can call themselves Engineers because they work with engines or they engineer software (They are mathematicians in my eyes).
I am the Chief engineer for a medium sized brewery near Manchester and am a member of the Brewing Engineers Association, as are engineers of many of the largest breweries in the UK. Many are chartered and far more academically qualified than I, but we all consider ourselves to be engineers.
If ever I should have to make use of your services I know that I will enjoy the best engineering service on my car I can get. And from Adam Going or some others, maybe we need another word for well qualified engineers such as INGINEUR (I know is not spelt right) as used in Europe with the professional cache that comes with it. I would not qualify to use it academically.
All the best
Bill
I hope this puts my points into context.
Regards
Bill
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I am not an engineer but a different sort of applied scientist who works in/with the engineering. industry.
However just to stir the pot and set it off on another tangent one common point of discussion when we are overseas and repair to the bar / restaurant is "What does an engineer earn in your country then?"
I shall not comment on the result except to say.......grrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!
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Well, I think that my mother summed it up very well when she told me never to get involved with anyone involved in trade.
As we all know very well, a doctor of medicine, or a QC, whilst only holding the equivalent of a masters degree, is a professional, whereas a doctor of engineering is just a tradesman.
If he wants to be addressed as Dr. Ing. Whatsisname by people bowing and scraping in front of him in the street he should go to one of those funny little foreign countries where the locals don't know to behave in polite society, or understand what really matters, like Germany.
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Is that the same as "moppet" or "popett" you saucy young man?
Or is it a special term of endearment for "outsiders" used by "insiders" who are undecided if they want them to join the "band".
I usually leave all that kind of thing to his Lordship - all that endless talk of blackballing - so tiresome.
Yawn.
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