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For both of the last services it went in for a general check up and MOT, only missing the last oil and filter change. Everything else was carried out as per the normal service routine so has not been totally ignored.
I am aware that other stuff needs checking, I was only asking about the state of the oil. .
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Oil & filter is under £50 and even less if you DIY - £25 will buy 4 litres & a filter
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Thanks, unable to do this myself now. I have always looked after my cars as best i could hence the Nissan is going well at its age even though It has low mileage which may be both good and bad.
I just thought it was a waste to change the little used oil if it still had the necessary properties to protect the engine after being in the engine for so long. I suppose it is best to play safe and have it changed as I intent to keep the car until I give up driving or a major failure occurs.
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I just thought it was a waste to change the little used oil if it still had the necessary properties to protect the engine after being in the engine for so long.
I think so too. My 1980 TR7 has had only three oil changes since 1997 and still works fine. It only does a few hundred miles a year. Oil is a bit like Angostura bitters - it doesn't 'go off'. The outdated advice 'change annually whatever the mileage' is in the garage's interest, not yours.
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ohsoslow, for peace of mind and the long term health of your engine get the oil changed.The engine in your car is light years ahead of the crude old lump in John's TR.
Just make sure whoever does it uses the correct oil and don't forget fresh oil will never harm your engine where as old oil definitely will.
Edited by paul 1963 on 17/09/2020 at 07:38
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....and don't forget fresh oil will never harm your engine where as old oil definitely will.
Very few statements in this area can be made "definitely". and..er.."definitely" not the one above.
If you added "excessively" in front of "old" it'd then be true by definition, but also a circular truism.
I suppose "old oil" might mean oil that has been in the engine for over a year. In that case the statement simply isn't believable. My last OCI was over 6 years. The engine was squeeky clean and chromatography showed no apparent oil degradation.
https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2007-01-4133/
The Effect of Oil Drain Interval on Valvetrain Friction and Wear 2007-01-4133
"As in the previous study, the results showed that the aged engine oils provide lower friction and much improved wear protection capability. These improvements were observed as early as the 3000 mile drain interval and continued to the 15000 mile drain interval."
Note: This is misleading since its performance in a test rig, NOT an operating engine, This isn't clear from the abstract which is all you get from SAE unless you pay them.
Rather rambling discussion by some oil geeks below. Its alleged that another issue with (too?) frequent oil changes may be boil-off of the volatile fractions of the virgin oil contributing to faster coking of the intake path, but again the links are to SAE papers and thus abstract-only
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/changing-your-oil-too-often-will-harm-your-engine.132462/
Edited by edlithgow on 17/09/2020 at 12:22
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....and don't forget fresh oil will never harm your engine where as old oil definitely will.
Very few statements in this area can be made "definitely". and..er.."definitely" not the one above.
If you added "excessively" in front of "old" it'd then be true by definition, but also a circular truism.
I suppose "old oil" might mean oil that has been in the engine for over a year. In that case the statement simply isn't believable. My last OCI was over 6 years. The engine was squeeky clean and chromatography showed no apparent oil degradation.
https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2007-01-4133/
The Effect of Oil Drain Interval on Valvetrain Friction and Wear 2007-01-4133
"As in the previous study, the results showed that the aged engine oils provide lower friction and much improved wear protection capability. These improvements were observed as early as the 3000 mile drain interval and continued to the 15000 mile drain interval."
Note: This is misleading since its performance in a test rig, NOT an operating engine, This isn't clear from the abstract which is all you get from SAE unless you pay them.
Rather rambling discussion by some oil geeks below. Its alleged that another issue with (too?) frequent oil changes may be boil-off of the volatile fractions of the virgin oil contributing to faster coking of the intake path, but again the links are to SAE papers and thus abstract-only
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/changing-your-oil-too-often-will-harm-your-engine.132462/
I think its a case of believe what you want, it is recommended in modern engines to change oil and filter regularly, at least once a year regardless of mileage, Personally I do it every 5-6k miles and never done any harm to my cars
I had a bad batch of diesel that wrecked the Civic engine, but never had bad engine oil, I dont give it the chance...
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As someone said above, it comes down to what you choose to believe. If the OP says his oil looks very clean and his low usage pattern regularly gets the engine to operating temperature, I choose to believe him, mostly because I can't see any reason not to.
I CAN see reasons not to believe manufacturer time-limits, because they simply are not plausibly based on physical reality. Oil is supposed to do 10,000 miles a year in the harsh environment of an operating engine and its OK, but 500 miles in the same year and its game over?
Well if you believe that, you might even believe this, which is a survey of oil shelf life recommendations, the limit case for light use
www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/172/lubricant-st...e I
Table 4 (recommended shelf life for indoor storage at 20C) is especially instructive .
Major oil company C: 10-30W Motor Oil (mineral) 1 YEAR
Major oil company C: 10-30W Motor Oil (PAO) 1 YEAR:
Major oil company D: 10-30W Motor Oil (mineral) 1 YEAR
Major oil company D: 10-30W Motor Oil (PAO) 1 YEAR:
Independant oil company B: 10-30W Motor Oil (mineral) Virtually unlimited *
Independant oil company B: 10-30W Motor Oil (PAO) : Virtually unlimited
Independant oil company C: 10-30W Motor Oil (mineral) : Infinite
Independant oil company C: 10-30W Motor Oil (PAO) : Infinite
1 YEAR (!) isn’t very long, and 1 year to infinity is a pretty wide range.
IF the 1 YEAR (!) has a basis in fact, it could mean that the major oil companies massive (but of course secret) testing of their latest oils, extending over several decades, has told them that their oil is particularly fragile
.At 20C.
In a sealed bottle.
OR it could be that their general knowledge of the chemistry of their product makes them think it might be particularly fragile, though its odd that the PAO, plausibly believed to be more stable in an engine, is just as fragile on the shelf.
At 20C.
In a sealed bottle.
OR it could be that they wanted to cover their big fat corporate ass, and pulled the smallest number out of it that they thought they could get away with.
IF they thought they could get away with 1 YEAR (!), they were evidently not too worried about the perceptiveness of the average punter.
You pays yer money...or you don't.
Edited by edlithgow on 19/09/2020 at 05:32
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I just thought it was a waste to change the little used oil if it still had the necessary properties to protect the engine after being in the engine for so long.
Every few weeks this query pops up again and John-F tells us about his everlasting TR7 - but without the qualification that it depends on how the low mileage has been accumulated. In a few words: many short trips, bad; fewer longer trips, better. If the oil always gets fully warm, many nasties will not build up in it, and it will be less important to change it. Filter in a petrol engine, probably every other oil change.
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I'm with you bolt, my car is just a few days over 2 years old, 9800 miles on the clock, its had 2 oil changes in that time.
And no John ( and Ed) I couldn't care less if it "really" needed it or not, it certainly hasnt harmed it, with all due respect it's up to the individual how they choose to maintain ( or not) there vehicle but I do object to the "don't bother,don't need it, I haven't changed my oil, brakes etc for years" advice ( sorry Avant, just needed a quick rant!).
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I'm with you bolt, my car is just a few days over 2 years old, 9800 miles on the clock, its had 2 oil changes in that time.
And no John ( and Ed) I couldn't care less if it "really" needed it or not, it certainly hasnt harmed it, with all due respect it's up to the individual how they choose to maintain ( or not) there vehicle but I do object to the "don't bother,don't need it, I haven't changed my oil, brakes etc for years" advice ( sorry Avant, just needed a quick rant!).
I take this thread to be about the questionable validity of a time-based maximum OCI with very light use.
Your regime is about 5000 miles per year,(oil change), which isn't light use by my standards or apparently those of the OP.
Its of course up to you if you couldn't care less if it "really" needed it or not, but if you don't,care, that further reduces the relevance of your advice to the OP, who evidently does, or at least did when he posted the question.
Edited by edlithgow on 18/09/2020 at 15:57
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Every few weeks this query pops up again and John-F tells us about his everlasting TR7 - but without the qualification that it depends on how the low mileage has been accumulated. In a few words: many short trips, bad; fewer longer trips, better.
Happy to qualify - very few trips fewer than 6 miles (we live in a village at least three miles from a town), very few trips more than 20 miles. Engine never goes beyond 6,000 miles between oil changes. Apart from a cast iron block and less intricate valve gear its 'crude old lump' is little different in design to the bog standard Nissan Note engine which is neither highly tuned nor possessed of a turbocharger. It certainly isn't 'lightyears' behind it.
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Every few weeks this query pops up again and John-F tells us about his everlasting TR7 - but without the qualification that it depends on how the low mileage has been accumulated. In a few words: many short trips, bad; fewer longer trips, better.
Happy to qualify - very few trips fewer than 6 miles (we live in a village at least three miles from a town), very few trips more than 20 miles. Engine never goes beyond 6,000 miles between oil changes. Apart from a cast iron block and less intricate valve gear its 'crude old lump' is little different in design to the bog standard Nissan Note engine which is neither highly tuned nor possessed of a turbocharger. It certainly isn't 'lightyears' behind it.
But the note's engine is fuel injected, built to much tighter tolerances, meets current emission standards, produces almost twice the bhp per litre, is far more fuel efficient, revs higher...I'll stop there...
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<< But the Note's engine is fuel injected, built to much tighter tolerances, meets current emission standards, produces almost twice the bhp per litre, is far more fuel efficient, revs higher...I'll stop there... >>
The implication of this remark is that the wonderful features of the 'modern' engine cause it to degrade its modern oil faster than John-F's good old-fashioned simple car. Is that really true ? Surely modern oil is designed for modern engines, especially when we are told we can leave it in for 12K miles or more ?
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<< But the Note's engine is fuel injected, built to much tighter tolerances, meets current emission standards, produces almost twice the bhp per litre, is far more fuel efficient, revs higher...I'll stop there... >>
The implication of this remark is that the wonderful features of the 'modern' engine cause it to degrade its modern oil faster than John-F's good old-fashioned simple car. Is that really true ? Surely modern oil is designed for modern engines, especially when we are told we can leave it in for 12K miles or more ?
It's certainly less tolerant of missed oil changes, we're drifting off the op's original question so I'll finish by saying if it was me I'd give it a oil change.
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<< But the Note's engine is fuel injected, built to much tighter tolerances, meets current emission standards, produces almost twice the bhp per litre, is far more fuel efficient, revs higher...I'll stop there... >>
The implication of this remark is that the wonderful features of the 'modern' engine cause it to degrade its modern oil faster than John-F's good old-fashioned simple car. Is that really true ? Surely modern oil is designed for modern engines, especially when we are told we can leave it in for 12K miles or more ?
It's certainly less tolerant of missed oil changes, we're drifting off the op's original question so I'll finish by saying if it was me I'd give it a oil change.
they are different engines anyway, the TR7 2.0 was tolerant of bad oil ie not changed for a couple of years. not so much the bigger unit!
though this practice of non change on time is still around, I recently looked for another car due to my car being written off, and was not surprised to see most cars I looked at had black oil in, and when you asked of its last oil change -Sorry I dont remember- and last receipt was 2 years ago and hardly any SH
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Thought I would mention that I have booked the Note in for a full service, so including an oil and filter change and MOT.
Hope to keep the old thing for years yet as it is useful for tip runs and regular trips down back lanes full of mud and cow muck but is still a reasonable car for longer trips. I have given it its annual pre- MOT proper wash and polish plus internal clean-up so it looks quite respectable. Unfortunately Audi owning daughter will not drive it as it has no street cred unless she is really desperate.
We have had it from new and apart from missing the oil change last year it has been serviced and maintained regularly. Last year having covered only a few miles the oil looked as though it was straight out of the can.
Thanks all for your comments.
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After the service & passing the MoT - fill the tank with Shell V Power / BP Ultimate and give it a treat - Super petrol + an Italian tune up clears "the tubes" it should run more quietly.
You might get part of a mile extra to the gallon.
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After the service & passing the MoT - fill the tank with Shell V Power / BP Ultimate and give it a treat -
Better to do that before the MoT, to improve the emissions.
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<< It's certainly less tolerant of missed oil changes, >>
That is probably true, but perhaps because the makers have stretched the change interval a bit too far ?
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Apart from a cast iron block and less intricate valve gear its 'crude old lump' is little different in design to the bog standard Nissan Note engine which is neither highly tuned nor possessed of a turbocharger. It certainly isn't 'lightyears' behind it.
But the note's engine is fuel injected,.....
...which is irrelevant to lubrication requirements,
built to much tighter tolerances,
I doubt it. Indeed, its aluminium block is less thermally stable than a cast iron block, and so will expand more resulting in worse piston block clearance, thus using more oil,
meets current emission standards,
again irrelevant for the bits that need oiling.
produces almost twice the bhp per litre,
Nowhere near twice - less than 20% more. 88HP from 1.4 litre v. 105bhp from 2 litres. Work it out.
is far more fuel efficient,
I'll grant you that
revs higher...
Hardly. Max power 88HP @ 5,600 rpm v. 105bhp @ 5,500.
I'll stop there...
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Apart from increased use of turbos and higher specific power outputs (which apparently don't apply in this case) , I can only think of three reasons a this-century car MIGHT be rougher on its oil than a last century car
(a) EGR. This puts impressive amounts of muck into the cylinders and some of it is likely to end up in the oil.
.I don't know if this car uses EGR
(b) Lower tension piston rings (to reduce frictional losses) which may allow more blow-by
(c) Wimpier Oil. Its generally a lower viscosity base, with more viscosity modifier in it, so its likely to give lower wear protection, shear down more and may be more likely to gum up rings. Of course manufacturers claim to have overcome these inherent limitations and probably have to a large extent.
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But the note's engine is fuel injected,..
Fuel injection probably has some relevance, but in the wrong direction for your argument, since its likely to result in lower fuel dilution of the oil than might be expected with a carburetted engine.
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My car's only done 300 miles in the last six months, due to shielding. It normally does 6K/year. It'll definitely miss the next oil and filter change and as soon as the fuel level's low enough I'll fill with super unleaded for the lower ethanol.
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My car's only done 300 miles in the last six months, due to shielding. It normally does 6K/year. It'll definitely miss the next oil and filter change
If a 6-month extension is OK for MoT testing, it should be OK for an oil-change too ?
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Every few weeks this query pops up again and John-F tells us about his everlasting TR7 - but without the qualification that it depends on how the low mileage has been accumulated. In a few words: many short trips, bad; fewer longer trips, better.
Happy to qualify - very few trips fewer than 6 miles (we live in a village at least three miles from a town), very few trips more than 20 miles. Engine never goes beyond 6,000 miles between oil changes. Apart from a cast iron block and less intricate valve gear its 'crude old lump' is little different in design to the bog standard Nissan Note engine which is neither highly tuned nor possessed of a turbocharger. It certainly isn't 'lightyears' behind it.
We used to have a saying in our workshop when customers asked us about oil change intervals.
"Clean fresh oil is much cheaper than piston rings, big end and main bearings, and is also much cheaper to fit"
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<< We used to have a saying in our workshop when customers asked us about oil change intervals: "Clean fresh oil is much cheaper than piston rings, big end and main bearings, and is also much cheaper to fit" >>
Let's revisit the discussion by starting from one unarguable fact: an engine cannot be harmed by a fill of fresh oil (correctly done of course). An OCD person might choose to do that every 3 months or 500 miles for peace of mind. I hope most of us would agree that would be OTT.
The question is Where is the happy mean between that and changing oil every 20K or 5 years (whichever comes first) ? Some posters here might advise an oil change every 12 months, even if the car has not turned a wheel; I would suggest that is also OTT, as I don't accept that oil will deteriorate significantly in a closed container over several years.
So it seems that it's up to you - with the rider that any active warranty terms should be allowed for. If the car gets regular exercise (meaning properly warmed through) the oil should last for several K miles. If it just potters around the locality the oil gets more contaminated and should be changed more often. You can argue about peace of mind, or retaining resale value, but those are optional extras and nothing to do with chemistry or lubrication.
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