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Trains 'n' Trams - kerbed enthusiasm

A question for the engineers out there please.

Every so often I visit Sheffield. I was there on Saturday and used the SuperTram system to get into the city centre. Once again, found wondering how the trams manage to climb relatively steep hills when trains are limited to something like a 3% incline before they are obliged to use a cog system. Presumably, the trams are lighter than an equivalent train and, being electrically powered, perhaps they have greater torque at their disposal. Is this the answer or have I missed something? I hate not knowing!

Trains 'n' Trams - ohsoslow

I believe trams are driven by all of its wheels where most trains have one or two power units at the ends. Could be wrong!

Trains 'n' Trams - gordonbennet

I suspect number of driven wheels coupled with power to weight, modern tram (and smaller trains) acceleration from rest and low speed are noticeably faster.

I had the misfortune to use the Manchester tramway yesterday, i now know (as does the rest of the coach) all i didn't want to know about alcohol addiction, methodone use, avoiding hospital requests to stay in etc etc...oh and lack of work, Dear Lord, about as alien as another planet, glad to get off, never again.

Edited by gordonbennet on 25/03/2014 at 10:46

Trains 'n' Trams - kerbed enthusiasm

The number of driven wheels and less weight certainly sound like the factors at play. GB you have my fullest sympathies. It's the shouted, one sided telephone conversations that drive me mad: almost all of them involve unrequited love.

Trains 'n' Trams - gordonbennet

Funnily enough the two train sections of my journey from Northants, via Sheffield, tp Manc were marvellous, just normal people going about their lives, reasonably.

The sea change to inner city life tramming it was startling, should have known what to expect as Manchester Piccadilly station seemed to have as many paramilitary coppers as punters, they only needed ski masks to complete the Spetsnaz GRU transformation.

Trains 'n' Trams - focussed

That's a bit worrying to hear of your experience on the wonderful low-carbon sustainable Manchester tram journey.My youngest daughter has made Manchester her home since failing to return to home plate from her university years. She thinks that Manchester is the centre of the world-nay universe!

I have to admit that I always told her that the place was a s*** hole, from my travels many years ago - but what do I know?

Trains 'n' Trams - gordonbennet

Its probably fine for streewise young person Focussed (though i would share your concerns), its people like me, and possibly others here, who were raised in a different time who are the odd ones out now.

Forgot to mention another young man on the tram asked to use my phone, his was flat or kaput blah blah blah, he seemed a trifle shocked at the reply NO, it might well have been innocent and i just an old curmudgeon, but somehow i couldn't see me keeping up with him if he legged it at the next stop.

Confess if i never saw another city again in my life it would suit me fine.

Trains 'n' Trams - galileo

I believe trams are driven by all of its wheels where most trains have one or two power units at the ends. Could be wrong!

Many of the newer multiple unit trains are diesel-electric, with all wheels driven and with sensors that limit wheelslip. the Desiro units on the Transpennine route have about 2250 bhp for a 3-car set weighing only about 165 tons empty (13.6 bhp per ton!)

These could probably cope with gradients steeper than usual on mainline rail, but the trackbeds were mostly laid in Victorian days when steam haulage was the norm, so were specified to suit that.

Trains 'n' Trams - kerbed enthusiasm
13.6 bhp per ton sounds like a tiny power to weight ratio! Does this mean that rolling resistance is also relatively small?
Trains 'n' Trams - gordonbennet

To put in context, my lorry is rated @ 440hp @ 44 tons means 10 hp per ton.

Aprrox 1550 lbs ft of torque.

Maybe for commercial applications a torque per ton figure would be more meaningful.

Trains 'n' Trams - kerbed enthusiasm

Thank you for the context. My only experience is with cars: mine is 165 bhp weighing in at

1470kg. That's well over 100bhp per ton. I should be flying off the tarmac!

Trains 'n' Trams - galileo

To put in context, my lorry is rated @ 440hp @ 44 tons means 10 hp per ton.

Aprrox 1550 lbs ft of torque.

Maybe for commercial applications a torque per ton figure would be more meaningful.

You have a point where gradient climbing and acceleration are concerned, but railway trains often run at 90mph plus on level-ish surfaces, so weight is less important than air resistance. Torque per drag factor and frontal area?

Trains 'n' Trams - Bromptonaut

You have a point where gradient climbing and acceleration are concerned, but railway trains often run at 90mph plus on level-ish surfaces, so weight is less important than air resistance. Torque per drag factor and frontal area?

The Inter City 125 could maintian 125 up Stoke Bank (where Mallard hit 120 in opposite direction). On HS1 - the line to the Chunnel - and on French TGV lines climb quite steep gradients at 180mph.

A mix of distributed traction and, on electric trains, the power that can be drawn from the catenary ake a massive difference.

In a commuter environment, during the diesel era, sixties built DMUs running Leeds to Ilkley struggled, and often failed if rail surface was slippery, on the 1:37 climb out of the Aire Valley from Apperley Junction to Guiseley.

These days electric units sail up without dropping below the 70mph line speed.

Trains 'n' Trams - galileo
13.6 bhp per ton sounds like a tiny power to weight ratio! Does this mean that rolling resistance is also relatively small?

In horse-drawn transport days, the basis was that a horse that could pull one ton on a road could pull 10 tons on a railway (or 50 tons of canal boat!). That was when rail wagons had plain, greased axle bearings, with modern roller bearings resistance must be much less.

Trains 'n' Trams - kerbed enthusiasm

Thank you Galileo. That makes everything start to make much more sense. It's a significant difference.