I expect the average driver covering 12k a year is doing some reasonably long runs, which will help the oil to keep clean as everything is getting hot.

The driver covering 5k a year is probably doing a lot of short runs.

In both cases in most modern cars i expect an annual change is sufficient for most people, bearing in mind how long most people keep their cars, i also expect most people don't service their own cars so annual is probably costs effective for them.

Where the water muddies is for those of us who keep our cars a long time, and quite possibly either service our own or have an indy or make specialist to do an annual service at MOT time, thats my situation by the way.

When my mileage was higher in other cars i would slip a half yearly oil change in myself as well as my indies annual, now my mileage has dropped his annual services are adequate IMO @ around 7k miles (12k recommended IIRC).

Mind you i trust my garage, i know he uses Fuchs full synthetic oil and genuine filters and the service is done properly including full brake strip outs, transmisson oil changes when required etc.

I also wouldn't go past 10k miles without an oil change under any circumstances whatever the maker recommended (to attract lease and hire companies), but then i'm a dinosaur apparently.

"For pities sake JohnF just give up with your stupid car maintenance information."

I see the spirit of friendly tolerance is alive and well in the BR in 2014. Of course, it's Skidpan, who probably wouldn't react too well if someone else described a comment of his as stupid.

So you think that JohnF is correct telling people that changing their oil, brake fluid, tyres is a waste of money.

If you do you are just as stupid as JohnF.

< For pities sake JohnF just give up with your stupid car maintenance information.

Nice to see a bit of intelligent debate apart from skidpan's insulting use of the word 'stupid'. [ Just for the record I had 'A' levels in Chemistry and Physics by the age of 17]

Of course oil is much better than the old 20-50 gunge - that's why it doesn't need changing every year. And the extraordinary comment above about house insurance merits no response.

My 30yr old TR7 engine continues to run sweetly [admittedly only about 70,000m] - the head has never been off and it uses hardly any oil. Our old Passat was still running well at over 240,000m when we got rid of it - cheap semi-synthetic oil every 10-12k or so.

No one so far has explained exactly why oil needs to be replaced annually. I still contend that if you only do 2000m a year it will still be doing its job after 5yrs. So instead of disagreeable invective I would appreciate a scientific argument why this should not be so. Just because 'it says so in the brochure' is not a satisfactory argument.

Cleaner?

:-)

"I find it equally shameful that people who claim to have a scientific and engineering backgrround continue to claim that changing your oil is not necessary."

Once again your reading skills let you down. It was not claimed that changing your oil is not necessary - ever.

You are trying to swing the "shameful" tag back onto those who merely disagree with you. Originally "shameful" was applied to your comments as a result of your rudeness and your inability to tolerate opinions different from yours.

It is a pity this thread has got bogged down in such matters; it could have been an interesting discussion instead of a display of petulance.

If I were a moderator I might be considering closing it.

Edited by FP on 08/01/2014 at 11:07

Thank you, Avant. It is shameful that those who cannot provide a scientific argument against my assertion that oil will work perfectly well for a number of years resort to either insults or accusations of 'trouble making'. I suppose it is a contention that the garage industry would not wish to debate.

I find it equally shameful that people who claim to have a scientific and engineering backgrround continue to claim that changing your oil is not necessary. You also claim that its is OK not to change your brake fliud or tyres even when they are beyond the accepted ages and that is a safety issue.

I find it baffling why members of this forum wil critisise BMW, VW, Renault etc. etc. for introducing long life servicing schedules with 20,000 mile oil change intervals and then say on this thread oil changes are not necessary if you only do a small mileage.

John F. If you wish to wreck your engines go ahead and do it but do not tell posters its OK to use 20 year old tyres like you did the other week. That is just plain dangerous.

He hasn`t wrecked his engine though even in 27 years,I have seen oil in India and African countries do 5 years hard work then strained and put back for another long time and with the dust and heat it has to work far harder than in the UK..

< John F. If you wish to wreck your engines go ahead and do it .... >

I think it is up to you, Skidpan, to persuade us of your opinions by providing evidence of engines 'wrecked' by not having annual oil changes?

There's also a hell of a differernce between a TR7 doing 2k miles comprising a few longish summer journeys and a car used year round for short runs. Ditto a car that gets out and up to temperature regularly but takes 2yrs to do 10k miles.

It also depends on the engine. A highly stressed petrol turbo will need more regular oil changes. And there are a number of these that will self destruct if left too long. Saabs 2.0 turbo used in the 95, or the VAG 1.8T for example. Both can block their oil pick ups and oil pressure will drop with the inevitable result.

Edited by corax on 08/01/2014 at 20:23

The last two posts say it all: it depends on several factors.

Assuming that John F means what Bromptonaut and I think he does, that overnight complete draining sounds like a useful tip for people doing a DIY oil change.

In the hope that if there's anything more to be said it's said moderately and politely, I'll let the thread run. Any more rudeness will be deleted.

Once again, thank you Avant. Both you and Bromptonaut are correct in your assumption. I am astonished anyone could have interpreted my advice otherwise. A garage that sucks the old oil out from above, inevitably leaving residual gunge below, is clearly more interested in profit than doing a proper job, although I appreciate that leaving it to drip for several hours would be commercially unacceptable.

But still no-one has convinced me that it is necessary to change modern oil in a modern engine more frequently than 10,000m or 5years [or even longer], whichever comes first. The 'short journey' argument is a red herring; the vast majority of Aunt Minnies' engines are small and warm up rapidly. As indicated by one or two interesting links in previous posts, oil does not go 'off'.

Perhaps we might have separate debates about brake fluid and tyre rubber, both of which have much increased longevity these days. I sometimes wonder how old tyres are on some low mileage caravans and trailers.