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Volkswagen Polo '57 plate - Car slightly hesitant idling and Cardiff garages - adidas

Hello there

Just wanted your advice about my car. I have it serviced regularly, drive mainly motorway miles and was serviced about 5 months ago. Done about 39,000. Car SORNed for a year last year. The car sounded like the car would cut out when it was idling about 4 months ago. Fuel filter was changed, fuel injector cleaner used and fuel injector position 3 was changed. This resolved most of the problems but it is still not quite right although it's better.

Have had engine scanned for codes, spark plugs changed and compression test done - all OK.

Taken my car a few times to the same place and they didn't really think there was much wrong when I last went. Personally, I definitely feel a lack of power (although not major) to previously and when idling feels not as smooth. Previously completely quiet and car didn't shudder (even slightly) when idling.

I've read about performance tuning but not sure if this is what I'm after. Not really sure what else could be wrong. Would be very grateful for some advice about what might be wrong and recommendations of any other reasonably priced places that I could go.....

Thanks

Hannah

Volkswagen Polo '57 plate - Car slightly hesitant idling and Cardiff garages - elekie&a/c doctor
would this be a 1.2 3cylinder engine?
Volkswagen Polo '57 plate - Car slightly hesitant idling and Cardiff garages - adidas

Hello

Thanks for your reply. It's a 1.4 SE so I think it's 4 cylinder.

Volkswagen Polo '57 plate - Car slightly hesitant idling and Cardiff garages - The-Mechanic

The throttle bodies on these 1.4 and the 1.6 engines have a tendency to play up. You could try removing and cleaning it with carburetor or air intake cleaner then, when refitted it will need to have it's basic settings re programmed with diagnostic equipment.

Volkswagen Polo '57 plate - Car slightly hesitant idling and Cardiff garages - injection doc
As it had been parked up for some time I would simply have a cylinder balance test carried out or a compression test.

When a vehicle is parked up some valves are always open and can rust due to the fact that they are open to the elements ! Especially the exhaust.

It may have a valve that's not seating properly .

A cylinder balance test or compression test or cylinder leakage test would be best.

If all the compressions are fine then look else where but I would start with the basics
Volkswagen Polo '57 plate - Car slightly hesitant idling and Cardiff garages - adidas

Thank you both for your replies. Sorry if this is a silly question but are the cylinder balance/compression/leakage test the same thing? I wouldn't have the knowhow to clean the throttle body myself as I'm a car novice. Is it worth having any other parts cleaned at the same time? How much should I be paying for a job like this? Appreciate your help.

Volkswagen Polo '57 plate - Car slightly hesitant idling and Cardiff garages - adidas

Compression test also all OK

Volkswagen Polo '57 plate - Car slightly hesitant idling and Cardiff garages - The-Mechanic

The compression test you have had measures the cylinders ability to create pressure whilst cranking and should give an idea of health if they are a round the expected values set out on Autodata specs for that engine. If each cylinder reading is within 8-10% of the others, it's a pretty good indication of the norm.

A leakage test is where a measured amount of air pressure is applied to the cylinders and then the amount of air escaping is measured against it to give a percentage of loss. As long as each cylinder reads around the same ( up to 10-15% ) then they are pretty balanced. Even new engines can have a degree of leakage so a small pressure loss is nothing to be concerned about. If the loss on one or more cylinders is noticeably different, that's the one to investigate.

A balance test involves checking the individual cylinders ability to produce power. Most diagnostic test equipment can carry out this test and basically it reads the RPM whilst running and cuts off the cylinders one by one and measures the RPM drop. The lower the drop, the less work that cylinder is doing.

The suggestion I made for the throttle body should take no more than an hour all in with the basic settings re programming at most garages. Unfortunately, I don't know which is the best place for you to take it to as I'm the opposite end of Wales to you.

Volkswagen Polo '57 plate - Car slightly hesitant idling and Cardiff garages - adidas

Hello

Thanks for your replies and help.

Been to another garage today. Described the problem to them and they think it's the cylinder head and suggest a replacement. They haven't yet checked the car over but I explained yhe tests so far and they said they can't say 100% just yet but think that's probably the cause. They think the throttle body is unlikely to be the cause given that it's not hesitant when driving. They want £790 for this job. Is this reasonable? Have said I'll come back and have athink about it first.

Volkswagen Polo '57 plate - Car slightly hesitant idling and Cardiff garages - Collos25

Before you spend £750 are you sure it has not the kiss of death timing chain problem if it has I would get rid of it.

Volkswagen Polo '57 plate - Car slightly hesitant idling and Cardiff garages - adidas

Thanks for your suggestion. How would I know it is the timing chain as opposed to the cylinder head?

Volkswagen Polo '57 plate - Car slightly hesitant idling and Cardiff garages - adidas

I've also only done just shy of 40k miles, I'm not sure what the service interval is for timing belt but wouldn't this be unlikely?

Volkswagen Polo '57 plate - Car slightly hesitant idling and Cardiff garages - adidas

Thanks for your advice. Just done a bit of reading. I see that at 6 years old, cam belt with the full kit should be looking to be changed as routine maintenance. Will look into this side of things to get the price down. Any thoughts about the cylinder head?

Volkswagen Polo '57 plate - Car slightly hesitant idling and Cardiff garages - The-Mechanic

Any info on what tests the garage has done to come to the conclusion of "the cylinder head" ? It seems a bit of a vague diagnosis, especially since they aren't 100% sure that's the cause. If it's the head gasket failing there should be some indication by way of coolant loss or overheating. Plus the compression test you had done should have shown if 1 or more cylinders was down by leakage from either a valve, piston ring or cracked/warped cylinder head.

The throttle body problem I suggested usually only manifests itself on idle and at low driving RPM but the car performs OK at higher speeds so it could still be the issue. If the battery was disconnected or run flat whilst the car was laid up SORN'd, the throttle body can lose it's basic settings and the fuel can "go off" whilst standing causing gummy deposits to build up in it along with the filter and injectors which you say have made an improvement since replacement.

The "kiss of death" timing chain issue that was brought up does not apply to this engine as it is belt driven ( two belts actually) and if either has jumped a tooth or two, would effect the running throughout the whole rev range, not just idling. From memory, the scheduled replacement for the belt kit is 80k miles OR 4 years and from my own experience, changing the coolant pump is a must.

I'd be inclined to get a second opinion from a different garage before handing over all that money for what basically equates to a guess.

Edited by The-Mechanic on 18/11/2013 at 20:35

Volkswagen Polo '57 plate - Car slightly hesitant idling and Cardiff garages - A3 A4

Long shot but if its a similar engine to my OH's 1.6 A3, we had similar problem (among others) and turned out to be the temperature sensor. Which apparently can send confusing info to the ECU.

Volkswagen Polo '57 plate - Car slightly hesitant idling and Cardiff garages - adidas

Thanks for your advice, will keep this in mind.

Volkswagen Polo '57 plate - Car slightly hesitant idling and Cardiff garages - adidas

Thank you for your advice mechanic. I have been a little worried as it is a lot of money to spend and have already spent a bit on the service/MOT to get it roadworthy after SORN and the fuel injector wasn't cheap either.

I hope you don't mind if I clarify, just trying to understand where I'm at. So what you're saying is that the garage needs to check that the cylinder head is the problem by doing the balance and air leak test first? And if there are no problems on the compression/air leak/balance test then the cylinder head will definitely not be the problem?

To be honest, he told me that the cylinder head was likely to be the problem and from what I gathered he felt it was unlikely that further testing would help. I had asked him if he could do the air leak/balance test but he didn't seem very interested in doing this. When I asked if they could clean the throttle body, he said 'there's no problem with your driving at higher revs?' to which I said no and I'm not sure if he directly replied but he gave me the impression that he didn't think this would help.

Would be grateful if you could clarify. I will try going elsewhere and ask them to list the tests and thoughts of how they arrived at their conclusions.

Edited by adidas on 19/11/2013 at 17:52

Volkswagen Polo '57 plate - Car slightly hesitant idling and Cardiff garages - elekie&a/c doctor

Before throwing loads of uneccessary money at this,has anyone suggested that the engine may not be filled with the correct spec oil.Perhaps the oil and filter should be changed before anything else expensive is done, along with the fuel filter.Worth a shot.

Volkswagen Polo '57 plate - Car slightly hesitant idling and Cardiff garages - adidas

Hello

Thanks for your suggestion. I had an oil change with the service about 5 months ago (although I didn't ask which oil they used). I had the filter and oil changed today as well. I checked the spec online and it's the right oil. Feels slightly better again but problem still present. I asked specifically about the fuel filter when I had the car looked at originally. They told me this wasn't the problem and wouldn't normally be serviced until 50k. So actually wasn't changed in the end.

The car actually was running very well for about 2 or 3 weeks after the service. Then had the fuel injector problem etc.

Volkswagen Polo '57 plate - Car slightly hesitant idling and Cardiff garages - The-Mechanic

Right, get the fuel filter changed and the spark plugs and air filter next then that'll rule out them as the culprits. The garage that said if there's no running problems at higher revs in regard to the throttle body obviously don't know what they are on about. I've been working exclusively on VW's for about 8 years now, and in that time all the 1.4 and 1.6 engined cars that were diagnosed with throttle body issues had idling problems but were OK once driven over about 1500rpm. Also, it's worth looking for any air leaks on the intake system. The favourite is the vacuum hose to the brake servo from the inlet manifold. The plastic pipe goes brittle and cracks/splits around the elbow joints and can cause idling issues as unmetered air is being drawn in weakening the mixture.

Find another garage to carry out diagnosis if changing the remaining filters and plugs doesn't help as the one you have gone to only seem interested in taking your money off you and not carrying out a proper and full diagnosis. I can't see what the problem is with not cleaning and re setting the throttle body ? It's a simple and cheap job to do rather than replace/repair a cylinder head that in my opinion, is not an issue in your case. Anyways, if the head is removed, the basic settings need to be done as a matter of course cos the throttle body has to be disconnected.

Volkswagen Polo '57 plate - Car slightly hesitant idling and Cardiff garages - adidas

Thanks mechanic for your detailed and helpful replies. It's going to be a bit tight for me to get the car in again this week but have booked it in for about 2 weeks time. I have decided to take it to an independent VW garage that I found recommended on the internet. I have spoken with them today on the phone, the problem is more pronounced on a cold start so they suggested leaving it overnight for one or two days and seeing how it is.

They will do a full diagnostics.

I will ask them to write down the tests they do within this and ask them to change the fuel filter and clean the throttle body when I go. I'll also get them to re-do all the tests including the air leak and balance test.

The air filter and spark plugs were changed about 6-7k miles ago so they are down as the culprits.

I really don't know why they wouldn't take the suggestion of cleaning the throttle body either?! They were fixated on the fact that it was the cylinder head. Surprisingly, I found that garage on the goodgaragescheme website. I have to say I went to another goodgaragescheme place elsewhere in the country and not found them to be great either which is a shame. Places are so variable!

My normal garage are very good and honest but they are a bit of traditional garage brakes and exhausts type place so not best placed on the diagnostics front. The new garage is recommended on a lot of VW forums so hopefully they will be able to get to the bottom of things.

I will post up my findings when I visit next. In the meantime, thanks again for your time, I really appreciate your help :) hope you're having a good day.

Edited by adidas on 20/11/2013 at 16:13

Volkswagen Polo '57 plate - Car slightly hesitant idling and Cardiff garages - adidas

Hello

Quick update......I have taken the car to a new garage and they have redone the compression test.

The invoice says 'carried out compression test, low on all cylinders but lower on 1 and 2. Suspect valves fractured and recommend replacement' I haven't the exact readings, sorry I forgot to ask.

They've told me this costs around £750.

I asked about the other tests initially but they just did the compression test again. On discussing this they said they felt that the valves were most likely the problem here. They didn't do a leakage test even though I'd suggested this or a balance test.

Is there anything else that can be done to salvage the situation rather than having this major work? This place was an independent VW garage and thinking might have to escalate it to the main dealers.

Edited by adidas on 12/12/2013 at 16:26

Volkswagen Polo '57 plate - Car slightly hesitant idling and Cardiff garages - adidas

Or will be thinking about weighing up my options.....

Edited by adidas on 12/12/2013 at 16:31

Volkswagen Polo '57 plate - Car slightly hesitant idling and Cardiff garages - skidpan

At some point you will have to get the car fixed or scrap it.

It is impossible to diagnose this problem over an internet connection, that is what garages do. If you don't trust them find a different garage. But eventually you are going to run out of garages to visit.

Volkswagen Polo '57 plate - Car slightly hesitant idling and Cardiff garages - The-Mechanic

Like skidpan says, it decision time....

If two cylinders are down on compression then the likely culprits would be the valves being burnt out. I've seen this many times on the 3 cyl 1.2 engines, not so much on the 1.4's but having said that, it'll make sense seeing as the car was laid up SORN for a while, the valves may have not so much stuck open, as has been mentioned in an earlier post, but not being able to fully close, causing the hot exhaust gasses to slowly burn the seats over time. Once this happens the only course of action is strip down, repair or replace I'm afraid.

One final, last ditch attempt would be to check the valve timing. If it's slipped there's the possibility that the valve overlap could cause low compression as they may not be fully closed on the compression stroke, but that's really clutching at straws. Also, if that's the case, the valve seats will be burnt by now anyways.

As I see it, you have 3 choices :

get it repaired ( not a nice financial thought this close to Christmas )

SORN it till you can afford to repair it

sell it for spares/repair

Volkswagen Polo '57 plate - Car slightly hesitant idling and Cardiff garages - Big John

As far as I know this is the 1.4 16v engine with a cam belt (not chain as per tsi) and a wasted spark coil pack. If you have a two cylinder misfire then it may simply be the coil pack. This is a COMMON fault especially after being parked up for a while - it is also a cheap fix.

There is a similar thread at the moment for a Golf with the same engine. To test when parked and in neutral with the engine running - floor the throttle. If is stutters a bit/ sounds like an old 2cv then change the coil pack!

Another common problem relates to the EGR valve - if it sticks open at all would upset tickover.

Edited by Big John on 16/12/2013 at 00:05

Volkswagen Polo '57 plate - Car slightly hesitant idling and Cardiff garages - The-Mechanic

John,

I know this engine is belt driven, and either belt (there's two of them), can jump a tooth if there's any slack or problem with the coolant pump or tensioners.

Whilst you are correct with the EGR and coil pack faults these engines can suffer from, they will have no effect on a compression test as the coils and plugs are removed and as such, the engine will not fire taking EGR out of the equation.

The definitive way to check for valve seat or piston / bore leakage is to carry out a leak test with compressed air. I pointed out the way this is done in an earlier post and it may be an idea to carry this out before deciding the next move ?

Volkswagen Polo '57 plate - Car slightly hesitant idling and Cardiff garages - Big John

I realise that the coil pack or EGR cannot affect compression readings - The only reason I was suggesting checking the coil pack first is that they are very prone to failure especially after a period of storage and it is a cheap fix. EGR can also fail closed when stored (runs fine but pops up insufficient flow code after a while)

Even though the compressions are low - it depends on how low. I've always been amazed over the years as to how well some cars run with low readings. They usually only come to light when another minor issue is investigated. THAT said these engines are well known for piston problems especially when run on lower octane fuel.

On a different engine (Punto Sporting 1.2) I've seen someone (not me honest!) rebuild an engine following similar symptoms as above only to find it had the same fault (slightly improved - probably due to better compressions etc..) - The engine bits and bobs had been retained complete with original coil pack - fault cured when this was changed!

Edited by Big John on 16/12/2013 at 23:11

Volkswagen Polo '57 plate - Car slightly hesitant idling and Cardiff garages - The-Mechanic

Even though the compressions are low - it depends on how low. I've always been amazed over the years as to how well some cars run with low readings. !

I agree, I've seen the 3 cyl 1.2's run with very little ill effect with 80psi or so more than one cylinder, that's why I suggested the leakage test. As long as there's 10% or so pressure loss per cylinder then the engine is in pretty good shape. Any more suggests a fault so it's best practice to remove the oil filler cap, dipstick and coolant header tank cap and listen/look for any escaping air (I use a stethoscope for this).

Head gasket is easy to see as air bubbles will show in the header tank, rings/bores thru the dipstick tube and valves/head thru the oil filler. Obviously the valves need to be closed on a per cylinder basis for accurate diagnosis so its important that the valve timing is spot on to ensure this.