Renault are up 34% on sales Jan-Nov 2024 vs the same period last year in the UK, with some very strong financials. They’re obviously doing something right, as opposed to their alliance partners.
Ah, but are profits up, and by what, and from what historical figures, particularly before the pandemic? Many car manufacturers have had a 'better' 2023-24 than the two years before, but then production was far more limited due to the lockdowns and knock-on effects such as logistics and shortages of parts.
Is Renault still part owned by the French government?
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‘ Is Renault still part owned by the French government?’
Not since 1996.
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‘ Is Renault still part owned by the French government?’ Not since 1996.
The French government has a 15% stake in Renault
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I was working as a quality inspector, when Renault bailed out Nissan, in plant, engine build, (machinine shop, cylinder heads, manifolds, collectors etc).
A pretty high tech place to work, no expense spared on equipment.
My job became very easy as the specs and tolerances were moved sideways.
Nothing much seemed to fail, and sc rap became almost non existent.
Every single person in that plant knew then that the writing was on the wall.
What was a very reliable, if a bit boring, product, very quickly gained a name for unreliability!
Remember the Micra timing chains? Or the dry solder problems on the throttle boxes?
Nissan (Renault) would take no responsibility for anything, as long as they could shave a few pence off costs.
Edited by mickyh7 on 10/12/2024 at 06:58
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That sums up the problems about many a car manufacturer, especially those that merge / get taken over by bigger firms: they rarely seem to get to the root of the problem, rather just use their own 'methods' of cost-cutting.
Nissan's original problem was, as you say, their cars were technically fine but mainly unexciting / not attractive, especially the Escort/Focus/Mandeo sized cars.
Manufacturers can often survive far longer if they sell attractive, exciting cars but which have design faults, because so many people buy cars for the prestige / image doing so projects, as well as the 'driving experience'.
That only goes so far, either when enough punters realise they've been sold a pup (for the money) and it was all hype about quality, and/or that sufficient numbers of significant (read expensive) product reliability failures are widely publicised (JLR), especially if economic hard times are on the horizon.
Almost all car firms are having serious difficulties at the moment for a variety of reasons - I can only think of Hyundai/KIA that (of the non-Chinese major players) is doing well globally. Nissan (and Vauxhall) may well be gone by this time next year if things don't go their way.
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Almost all car firms are having serious difficulties at the moment for a variety of reasons - I can only think of Hyundai/KIA that (of the non-Chinese major players) is doing well globally. Nissan (and Vauxhall) may well be gone by this time next year if things don't go their way.
Toyota profits are up globally for 2024 and think Mazda are doing well...and 2024 figures for JLR are all up as well...even Nissans global figures were up - their issue it they have a huge debt which needs paying next year.
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Almost all car firms are having serious difficulties at the moment for a variety of reasons - I can only think of Hyundai/KIA that (of the non-Chinese major players) is doing well globally. Nissan (and Vauxhall) may well be gone by this time next year if things don't go their way.
Toyota profits are up globally for 2024 and think Mazda are doing well...and 2024 figures for JLR are all up as well...even Nissans global figures were up - their issue it they have a huge debt which needs paying next year.
As I said before, we have to check any increase in profits against what they were in the lead up years to the pandemic / Ukraine war times. It won't be that difficult to increase profits compared to mid 2020 - end 2022, given how low sales were back then.
What will be 'interesting' is to see what happens now that the EV quotas are beginning to bit and hard.
As some have already alluded to, I suspect many manufacturers have been artificially boosting sales figures (and thus profits on a short-term basis) by buying up their own cars (mainly EVs) via some longer-term credit plan and flogging them later second hand.
This could well mean a VERY hard landing over the coming years, because EV 'real' sales are not likely increasing / at the rate required to stay profitable, especially because it has been widely reported that many manufacturers are deliberately cutting back production/sales of ICE cars (including hybrids) in order to meet the otherwise impossible percentage targets for EVs, and applying huge discounts to many of them as well.
One thing to note is that both Toyota and Mazda (who have a technical tie-up to presumably reduce their costs) are amongst those selling the least pure BEVs in their line-ups, and thus will likely find it very hard to stay within the sales targets most Western governments have set, which means they'll either have to pay enormous fines, drastically cut production/sales of non BEVs or a halfway house version. Whatever they do, it won't come cheap.
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As I said before, we have to check any increase in profits against what they were in the lead up years to the pandemic / Ukraine war times. It won't be that difficult to increase profits compared to mid 2020 - end 2022, given how low sales were back then.
I did that for you and they are all doing better than in 2019.
Toyota is bringing more EVs to the market so I can't see that they will have too many issues with meeting the sales targets - Toyota seems to be a very well run company and don't think they will have any issues with what's required of them. And you have to expect that the US where Toyota and Mazda sell a lot of cars the market will be less restrictive from next year and allow in more ICE vehicles.
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Almost all car firms are having serious difficulties at the moment for a variety of reasons - I can only think of Hyundai/KIA that (of the non-Chinese major players) is doing well globally. Nissan (and Vauxhall) may well be gone by this time next year if things don't go their way.
Vauxhall Mokka-e is made in a Peugeot factory in France. They benefit hugely from shared R&D, lots of commonality in parts within the PSA group. They're sitting very pretty. What's been the issue is greed. Stellantis EVs are about 20% overpriced, eg the Astra EV which is very overpriced.
That said they've just launched a competitively priced Frontera EV that has a lot in common with the new Citroen EV. Reportedly it's a bit lacking in performance / Range, but it's a family car so won't be driven like your hairs on fire.
So it's an interesting time.
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Press release Third Quarter 2024 Shipments and Revenues | Stellantis
- revenues down 27% compared to 2023
- volumes down 20% compared to 2023 suggesting price reductions
- stock of 1330k vehicles represents approx. 4 months sales
They are a global company - their European volumes are ~40% of the total with the US as their major other market. The US is a bit of a disaster area compared to Europe which also has problems.
As it is their press release there are lots of positive noises about new model rollout and developments - I would take with a pinch of salt.
Their profits in earlier financial reports are ~5% of revenues - they could not sustain cuts of 20% in prices in the long term to be competitive. Current discounting is to shift high stock levels and raise some cash.
There are only two options to secure long term survival:
- radical restructuring to reduce costs to become competitive with chinese
- tariff barirers to protect their operations
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I perceive Nissan these days to be basically undifferentiated and boring. Maybe it isn't just me. Once that happens they are prey to much cheaper producers in e.g. China. This probably isn't entirely rational, perception of brand is affected by many factors.
Memorable brands usually have 'halo' cars in the range, that don't necessarily sell in volume but are instantly recognizable and carry the flag. At the moment I can't think of such a car in the Nissan range.
Somehow Nissan has lost its identity for me.
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At the moment I can't think of such a car in the Nissan range.
Somehow Nissan has lost its identity for me.
They were market leaders in the small SUV sector with the Qashqai. Shame that they effectively gave the lead away to the competition.
And the Micra, once one of the first choices for novice drivers along with the Fiesta, seems to have lost its appeal.
Edited by Marlin1 on 11/12/2024 at 11:58
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The demise of Nissan seems to be happening at a time when Renault reliability seems to be improving. Perhaps they learnt this from the tie up with Nissan .
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>>And the Micra, ... seems to have lost its appeal.
The Micra has been discontinued.
The Qashqai was popular, although I found them very cramped when I travelled in them. Can't remember when I last saw an X-trail.
My son had a very cheap leased Note for 3 years. Seemed OK to me, I couldn't really understand why they didn't have a better following. Similar to Renault Modus - maybe it was a Renault under the skin? Not that I mind Renaults.
En passant, one of the most fun cars I have ever driven was a Renault 4. Certainly on a per horsepower basis. I will always love them for that.
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In 2023 Stellantis sold 6.3m vehicles worldwide. In 2024 this will reduce to ~5.0m.
UK brand sales to November 2024 are 271k - Nissan ~92k, Peugeot ~65k, Vauxhall ~73k, Citroen ~28k, Fiat ~13k. Alfa and DS are trivial.
Overall the UK accounts for 6% of Stellantis sales. Their woes extend far beyond the UK - that Nissan fail to deliver a worthy product for UK buyers is a small part of the problem.
What is interesting is that overall Stellantis sales in the UK are little changed from 2023 at 279k - Nissan ~82k, Peugeot ~59k, Vauxhall ~94k, Citroen ~28k, Fiat ~16k.
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Nissan is not Stellantis is it? Have I misunderstood? I can't keep up...
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Nissan is not Stellantis is it? Have I misunderstood?
Not unless I have missed something somewhere ! It's PSA + Fiat + Vauxhall at my last count ?
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Nissan is not Stellantis is it? Have I misunderstood?
Not unless I have missed something somewhere ! It's PSA + Fiat + Vauxhall at my last count ?
And sub brands like Alfa and Jeep. Not Nissan though, their gang is Renault and Mitsubishi.
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>>And the Micra, ... seems to have lost its appeal.
The Micra has been discontinued.
The Qashqai was popular,
Last year in the UK it was 2nd best selling car so think it is still pretty popular...and the Juke was the 8th most popular and the Micra is due to return as an EV - assuming it will be based on the new Renault 5.
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Nissan should introduce their popular models like Sakura in European market.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNK8Fwyy_Io
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Nissan should introduce their popular models like Sakura in European market.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNK8Fwyy_Io
I presume you're being ironic here.
It would probably sell less than the Cube, especially as its size (particularly the width) isn't exactly 'compatible' with the 'girth' of many a Brit these days. I don't think it'll win any awards for practicality (incl. boot space), styling or handling / performance either.
Only for slim people from the Far East.
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Nissan should introduce their popular models like Sakura in European market.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNK8Fwyy_Io
I presume you're being ironic here.
It would probably sell less than the Cube, especially as its size (particularly the width) isn't exactly 'compatible' with the 'girth' of many a Brit these days. I don't think it'll win any awards for practicality (incl. boot space), styling or handling / performance either.
Only for slim people from the Far East.
The reviewer seems to fit and Smart cars have sold here despite being very small so can't see that as an issue and no cheap/city car is likely to win awards for practicality/styling/handling or performance - that's not really the point of them. They are cheap/low running costs for a single drive/couple - seem ideal for a lot of people especially as a second car.
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Bearing in mind the smattering of Renault based question marks above (and occasionally elsewhere, it has to be said) .... I would imagine there will be an enthusiastic following for the new Duster which is probably in the showrooms by now and would expect it will do OK, as the previous one has.
On the face of it though, if you wasn't a fan of French cars, and Renault in particular - for the reasons that are well enough known - then to buy a cut price budget Renault would be worse still in their eyes, but yet they have sold in respectable numbers, so someone is buying them.
I've occasionally asked myself if it was better, if buying new, to consider buying a more cheaply priced Dacia at list price (which is the norm) as opposed to something from a more "mainstream" company but at £3.000 off list price, thus bringing it down to where the equivalent Dacia might be.
Edited by KB. on 16/12/2024 at 12:48
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With economy in reverse gear + push for EV pushing up prices of cars in general, cars are turning into luxury items than a necessity. Many people simply cant' afford cars anymore and number of multi-car households diminishing fast.
On this context, an affordable car will be welcomed by many.
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I must admit I bought my first new Nissan back in 2007 (a Qashqai) expecting a far more reliable product than I actually got. I think the security of Japanese reliability had become a myth by then. I quite liked the car but had numerous niggly issues with it.. I kept it for four years but got sick and tired of the time it spent being repaired. I probably would have had several Qashqais since then as I quite like all the models but my own experience of one and their perceived poor reliability record has put me off.
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I must admit I bought my first new Nissan back in 2007 (a Qashqai) expecting a far more reliable product than I actually got. I think the security of Japanese reliability had become a myth by then. I quite liked the car but had numerous niggly issues with it.. I kept it for four years but got sick and tired of the time it spent being repaired. I probably would have had several Qashqais since then as I quite like all the models but my own experience of one and their perceived poor reliability record has put me off.
My perception is that Nissan has always been excluded from Japanese reliability, just Honda, Toyota, Lexus and Subaru really.
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Maybe Nissan would have been part of that community before the Renault alliance, I’m not sure. But I certainly thought it would be more bullet proof than it actually was.
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And I guess they can sell millions and millions of them but if they are selling them at a loss that’s not particularly very good for the business.
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With economy in reverse gear + push for EV pushing up prices of cars in general, cars are turning into luxury items than a necessity. Many people simply cant' afford cars anymore and number of multi-car households diminishing fast.
On this context, an affordable car will be welcomed by many.
Are you sure? Just a look outside any housing estate you will see a lot of cars and traffic levels are all still very high anytime I venture out.
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Car sales have fallen
www.goodcarbadcar.net/uk-total-auto-industry-sales.../
The last 2 years they have increased though:
2023
shorturl.at/YxFKp
2024 - up to November
shorturl.at/DidzE
And I think now as petrol and diesel only cars are getting older and EVs getting cheaper then sales will keep increasing.
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Honda have no existing EV technology worth buying
Ditto Nissan..
A merger of two about to be hasbeens..
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Thought they use the same technology in the new Civic and Qushqai known as e power ?
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Thought they use the same technology in the new Civic and Qushqai known as e power ?
E power isn't an EV, just a different name for a hybrid.
I don't think the Honda hybrid system is related to the Nissan EPower though. The Honda version works closer in principle to the Toyota and Kia/Hyundai hybrids with the engine driving the wheels directly at higher speeds.
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Not sure if you are right Ian
Both the Nissan e power and the system used in the new Civic only is a petrol engine charging a battery which powers the electric traction motor.
Theres the similarity .
Nissan got into trouble with the ASA by saying the Quashqai was an EV . And had to retract .
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Car sales have fallen
www.goodcarbadcar.net/uk-total-auto-industry-sales.../
The last 2 years they have increased though:
2023
shorturl.at/YxFKp
2024 - up to November
shorturl.at/DidzE
And I think now as petrol and diesel only cars are getting older and EVs getting cheaper then sales will keep increasing.
EV prices are apparently being cross-subsided by manufacturers by bumping up ICE car prices and reducing profit margins.
They are also taking a huge hit by artificially reducing production of ICE cars so that their EV sales can 'meet' the percentage mandates by Western governments. To me, that's a recipe for many bankruptcies, except for state-backed manufacturers from China. Class.
Total sales are still well below the 2019 (and before) levels, despite big increases in the working age population of many Western nations.
Artificially manipulating the market for no actual gain for anyone except a few mega-rich and powerful people. Medieval serfdom here we come!
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EV prices are apparently being cross-subsided by manufacturers by bumping up ICE car prices and reducing profit margins.
They need to if faced with a fine for selling too many ICE or not enough EV.
They are also taking a huge hit by artificially reducing production of ICE cars so that their EV sales can 'meet' the percentage mandates by Western governments. To me, that's a recipe for many bankruptcies, except for state-backed manufacturers from China. Class.
Chinese companies now offer excellent cars (performance, finish, gizmos etc) at a price well below that which European manufacturers can achieve. Folk vote with their wallets.
Some bankruptcies are inevitable amongst traditional brands unless they compete effectively. Alternative is tariff barriers to exclude Chinese manufacturers which simply drives up costs to consumers..
Total sales are still well below the 2019 (and before) levels, despite big increases in the working age population of many Western nations.
Covid - low mileage, uncertainty over ICE vs EV, at three years old cars are not obsolete. It is probably good less cars are sold - an in years to come fewer thrown on the sc*** heap.
Artificially manipulating the market for no actual gain for anyone except a few mega-rich and powerful people. Medieval serfdom here we come!
Depends entirely upon whether you value the environment, believe EV are the whole or partial answer. Blaming a few mega-rich is conspiracy theory nonsense.
Common ownership of cars has resulted in material environmental degradation - it is questionable whether this is sustainable in the future or whether a return to lower impact lifestyles is generally what awaits humanity.
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EV prices are apparently being cross-subsided by manufacturers by bumping up ICE car prices and reducing profit margins.
They need to if faced with a fine for selling too many ICE or not enough EV.
Then the (ill-thought-out, very bad) laws forcing them to do that and possibly bankrupting them or at least making the Chinese the dominant force in car making (leading to millions of job losses in the West) should be repealed.
They are also taking a huge hit by artificially reducing production of ICE cars so that their EV sales can 'meet' the percentage mandates by Western governments. To me, that's a recipe for many bankruptcies, except for state-backed manufacturers from China. Class.
Chinese companies now offer excellent cars (performance, finish, gizmos etc) at a price well below that which European manufacturers can achieve. Folk vote with their wallets.
Subsidising the global dominance and anti-Western efforts of the CCP who subsidise their products. "and that's a good thing"
Some bankruptcies are inevitable amongst traditional brands unless they compete effectively. Alternative is tariff barriers to exclude Chinese manufacturers which simply drives up costs to consumers..
Total sales are still well below the 2019 (and before) levels, despite big increases in the working age population of many Western nations.
Covid - low mileage, uncertainty over ICE vs EV, at three years old cars are not obsolete. It is probably good less cars are sold - an in years to come fewer thrown on the sc*** heap.
When did I say that three-year-old cars are 'obsolete'? COVID is over, despite what some might say, and the 'uncertainty' of ICE-vs EV is caused by the very berks in charge of policy-making and those pushing them ever further in that direction.
Artificially manipulating the market for no actual gain for anyone except a few mega-rich and powerful people. Medieval serfdom here we come!
Depends entirely upon whether you value the environment, believe EV are the whole or partial answer.
Forgive me, but IMHO that's straw man argument, given many components and processes involved with EVs over their lifespan are definitely NOT 'environmentally friendly' and certainly not ethical as regards the treatment of the humans involved. Neither, in my view, is transferring yet more wealth towards dictatorships such a the CCP.
Plus, many aspects of environmentalism are still very hotly debated, but regularly downplayed by 'greenwashing' and excluding many studies which concluded there was little to no credible evidence of man-made global warming or on the scale those pushing for the policies like rapid changes from ICE--> EV are using to get their way.
Blaming a few mega-rich is conspiracy theory nonsense.
With respect, that is just nonsense and yet more straw-manning. I would note that a certain British billionaire climate activist is current the driving force behind the current government's 'environmental' policies, the effect of which seems to be to make those not rich a lot poorer and with less influence.
Common ownership of cars has resulted in material environmental degradation - it is questionable whether this is sustainable in the future or whether a return to lower impact lifestyles is generally what awaits humanity.
Funny how that (stopping car ownership or other nice things) only appear to negatively affect those who aren't rich and powerful who can get around that by 'paying' (but still having a lot left over for other nice things).
Far more damage being done by:
- Micro plastics;
- Pollution from factories generally;
- Pushing unproven 'green' tech costing taxpayers huge sums through subsidies that, despite promises to the contrary, never have lowered the price for heat, power and water/sewerage;
- Large and sudden population and demographics changes;
- Large and very significant social changes forced on populations without their consent;
- Industrialised, heavily industrialised and processed food production and promotion whilst simultaneously jacking up the cost of natural, (especially) home grown farmed products (including via policies to drive ordinary farmers to stop and sell up to multinationals [guess who has huge stakes in them?]);
- Not promoting healthy lifestyles and pandering to Big Pharma who IMHO are very likely in cahoots with Big Food and others to create problems (often out of thin air) they then tout to 'fix' but which are in reality a lifetime popping expensive pills, etc.
- General reduction in real freedoms, including speech and ability to go about one's business without having Big Brother look over your shoulder with the threat of several things that could easily ruin someone for something innocuous or that is truthful.
- Warmongers and the other 'industrial complexes' and 'globalist investors' who stand to benefit hugely at our expense, enabled by corrupt politicians, officials and journalists.
No, absolutely nothing else that is more important at the moment.
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Has that diatribe got anything to do with Nissan?
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"Has that diatribe got anything to do with Nissan?"
Not really. But Andy likes to get astride his right-wing conspiracy theories and work up a lather about real or imagined difficulties with other opinions that don't align with his views, producing excessively long posts in the process.
At one point I might have challenged some of that, but now I just smile and scroll on by. I have much better things to do with my time.
Edited by FP on 21/12/2024 at 16:46
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"Has that diatribe got anything to do with Nissan?"
Not really. But Andy likes to get astride his right-wing conspiracy theories and work up a lather about real or imagined difficulties with other opinions that don't align with his views, producing excessively long posts in the process.
I was merely pointing out the many other things in the world that are far worse than owning an ICE car. And isn't the difference from what you and the MSM call 'conspiracy theories' about 6 months now?
Besides, I'd hardly call microplastics, documented pollution and huge levels of migration 'made up', nor are the causes (not just how much, but what we eat) of obesity and the rocketing of poor health at the same time as profits of the biggest players in the food and pharma industry are at record levels.
What would you call Western 'leaders' touting for war (often by proxy) that appears to funnel 'taxpayer donations' back to their own military manufacturers (rather like another recent 'event '), all the while hundreds of thousands of ordinary people are slaughtered for, what benefit, exactly?
Car ownership is well down on the 'bad' list.
At one point I might have challenged some of that, but now I just smile and scroll on by. I have much better things to do with my time.
Evidently not. A shame some people are so wedded to an agenda for so long that they cannot even contemplate being wrong. Oh well.
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