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Steveieb post of yesterday mentions the need for another set of wheelnuts for a space saver. Both my Golf and Vitara have OEM space savers. The Golf’s was part of the standard spec and the Vitara one I bought from Suzuki and is branded as such. Neither came with different bolts. The Golf manual says to use “the wheel bolts supplied by the factory” which is a bit ambiguous but I assume means the ones from the alloys The Vitara manual says nothing about bolts.
I have used the Golf spare on the drive to facilitate a tyre rotation and wasn’t aware of the bolts interfering with any clearances. I’ve never used the Vitara one. Can I assume that the bolts from the alloys are fine in both cases, or is there any way I can physically check? I have no faith in calling either main dealer for advice (both use central call centres) but can of course do so if I can’t get reassurance here.
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Hi Catsdad.
The cad in question was a 19 reg Captur which came with a spacesaver and a set of replacement wheel bolts.
But I imagine there have been cases when wheels have been changed in the dark and stormy weather when owners have used the original wheel bolts which may have damaged the brake mechanism .
My indie specialises in providing a service to Main dealers in releasing locking wheel nuts in the case where the owner has lost the special wheel nut. He forces an old socket onto the stud and uses a long wrench ! It’s surprising the number of customers requiring this service .
My partner hit the kerb with her Captur ruining the tyre but I’m not surprised because the visibility out of modern SUVs like hers is so poor when looking ahead!. Two new Contis costing £300 it makes you wonder about buying premium tyres!
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I have used the Golf spare on the drive to facilitate a tyre rotation and wasn’t aware of the bolts interfering with any clearances. I’ve never used the Vitara one. Can I assume that the bolts from the alloys are fine in both cases, or is there any way I can physically check? I have no faith in calling either main dealer for advice (both use central call centres) but can of course do so if I can’t get reassurance here.
I'd remove a wheelbolt and get the spare wheel out, sadly you'll have to remove one wheel to check the protruding length measurement..
Check the bolt seats in the wheels are the same, some are shaped when the underside of the bolt head is slightly domed, others are taper fit to suit a straight angled bolt head, assuming the bolt seat is correct put a bolt in the wheelbolt hole of each wheel type and measure the length of bolt protruding, if you've removed a wheel you could slip the spare on and bolt it then turn the wheel gently to double check, suggest a rear wheel especially if drum brakes are fitted.
Wheelbolts for some alloys are slightly longer than for steel wheels, where the correct (usually full size) spare wheels are fitted there may be a collar welded into each bolt hole of the steel wheel to allow the same bolts to be used< PSA ghroup cars were brilliant for this.
A slightly longer bolt protrusion will likely only cause an issue where rear drum brakes are used, some rear park brakes are of the drum inside disc design, i haven't a clue about Suzukis...the only cars i've seen really noticeable difference in wheelbolt lengths were on Mercedes, almost all Mercs had the drum inside disc park brake and using the wheelbolts for (Ronal) alloys with a steel wheel could foul the drum brake mechanism, the other way round you'd end up with about 2 threads holding the wheel on.
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Thanks Gordon, both cars have discs all round.
Unfortunately I am in post-cataract operation period where heavy bending and effort are not advised so I can’t whip one off for now. The more I think about it (and given other comments) I don’t think it’s an issue with the Vitara or Golf as it doesn’t come up on a wider web search. But it does for some Mercs, Fords and as above Renaults.
I know it wasn’t an issue with my Accord or Civic either.
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Thanks Gordon, both cars have discs all round.
Unfortunately I am in post-cataract operation period where heavy bending and effort are not advised so I can’t whip one off for now. The more I think about it (and given other comments) I don’t think it’s an issue with the Vitara or Golf as it doesn’t come up on a wider web search. But it does for some Mercs, Fords and as above Renaults.
I know it wasn’t an issue with my Accord or Civic either.
Indeed, its one thing i really like about Japanese engineering, they think about maintenance etc at design stage where with too many euro makers ongoing servicing other than an oil change wasn't given a moments consideration.
Rapid recovery wishes for you, SWMBO had both done last year or the one before, she's got better sight than me now.
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Thanks Gordon, both cars have discs all round.
Unfortunately I am in post-cataract operation period where heavy bending and effort are not advised so I can’t whip one off for now. The more I think about it (and given other comments) I don’t think it’s an issue with the Vitara or Golf as it doesn’t come up on a wider web search. But it does for some Mercs, Fords and as above Renaults.
I know it wasn’t an issue with my Accord or Civic either.
Indeed, its one thing i really like about Japanese engineering, they think about maintenance etc at design stage where with too many euro makers ongoing servicing other than an oil change wasn't given a moments consideration.
Indeed - I like it that they bother to make many components / areas of the engine bay easy to access in order to replace or maintain parts. It's simple things like that that can make a huge difference to the ownership experience (as well as using parts that work well together and last a long time), including reducing costs.
It doesn't always work though, given my own recent poor experience with my 18yo Mazda3, when, for the sake of having a minor maintenance item of getting the screw threads of the exhaust lambda sensors reapplied with anti-seize every few years, I would've avoided an extra £1600 cost (replacing half the exhaust and manifold) when one of the sensors failed last year.
Still, I'm not complaining that much, given how other items have been ergonomically designed and fitted which has meant easy access on other fronts over the years, and the cost of its ownership (despite the above) is low overall.
Rapid recovery wishes for you, SWMBO had both done last year or the one before, she's got better sight than me now.
Seems like lots of people are getting theirs 'done'. My dad's just had one eye fixed, now the other in a month or two and he'll just need reading glasses after decades of bifocals.
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Hi catsdad, I have the same car as you, I use a honda civic 2008 space saver on it, same pcd etc , fits fine. It uses the standard wheel bolts, I've driven a few miles on it to check and all is fine. In fact I've never needed different wheel bolts for any space saver and I've had several- cheers.
Edited by bazza on 27/08/2024 at 14:25
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I found the cars to be rough-running, throaty and thrashy. ....I'd be more than happy to hire a BMW or MINI on my next trip away, to see if they have found the magic formula to get their three pot to run smoothly.
I guess you had a sluggish non-turbo version. Try a car with the 110hp turbo, or better still, the 130hp, as in ours, mated to an EAT gearbox. I think you would be pleasantly surprised. (I have no special allegiance to Stellantis). It's certainly smoother than a 4 pot 1.2 VW engine I encountered once in a hire car - it was so rough I thought it was a diesel!
I don't think the engine in a hire car is the best representation of the specific model. It will no doubt have been driven by all sorts of people, some good, others with no clue, probably lugged in the wrong gear e.t.c. No one cares about the car because they don't own it. You can get 2 models of exactly the same spec, and after a few years they can feel very different depending on who has been using/abusing them.
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Out of interest what are people's objections to electric / push button handbrakes? I mean...they do exactly the same job with less effort and easier use. They are also more reliable (yes, honestly, they are - the only ones I know which give trouble are the very early Renault ones).
I don't want to worry anyone but people seemingly haven't noticed that the manual gearbox and clutch is also nearly RIP with ever dwindling sales and most manufacturers dropping them......
Edited by pd on 27/08/2024 at 16:34
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Out of interest what are people's objections to electric / push button handbrakes?
They don't let you do handbrake turns! Seriously though, I find the delay between pressing the release button and pulling away can lead to stalling.
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Out of interest what are people's objections to electric / push button handbrakes?
They don't let you do handbrake turns! Seriously though, I find the delay between pressing the release button and pulling away can lead to stalling.
I've never found that. In any case the vast majority of cars also have some sort of auto hill hold so you don't actually need to use the handbrake. But I take your point on handbrake turns.
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Most cars I’ve driven with EPB’s haven’t needed the button to be pushed/pulled to release it.
Simply set off and it releases.
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Most cars I’ve driven with EPB’s haven’t needed the button to be pushed/pulled to release it. Simply set off and it releases.
You only have to wait until the electric motor releases the brake sufficiently.
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Out of interest what are people's objections to electric / push button handbrakes? I mean...they do exactly the same job with less effort and easier use. They are also more reliable (yes, honestly, they are - the only ones I know which give trouble are the very early Renault ones).
I don't want to worry anyone but people seemingly haven't noticed that the manual gearbox and clutch is also nearly RIP with ever dwindling sales and most manufacturers dropping them......
My objections?
First off an answer to a problem that didn't exist for most of us that can control our vehicles on hil starts and tight maneuvering, just another notch in the deskilling ratchet, i've covered millions of miles and never did i desire something electronic for parking brake operation, in years gone by cable or rod operated park brakes on trucks weren't great admittedly in some cases operating on a brake drum built into the diff) but once air sprung safety brakes became a thing and park brakes became air operated these were the best of all and still are imho.
Added complication, not only more electronics and servo motors (themselves in the most inhospitable of places regarding wet and salt corrosion etc) but more equipment needed for periodic brake servicing, which means for most workshops already reluctant if even capable of correct car brake servicing will be even more reluctant, if thats possible, to whip the pads out clean and lube things up properly and exercise the pistons in their bores because more dismantling required as well as electronic intervention to put the system into service mode in the first place.
Compare to my own cars, all of which have manual drum inside disc park brakes, which not only give no trouble at all it also means the calipers are as simple and easy to dismantle and service or whatever as the simplest front calipers are because all they do is provide service braking from the brake pedal.
They've even found their way onto artics now, over the last 40 years where once one applied a locking park brake lever, usually (except for VW group MAN who managed to hide the thing beside the driver's seat base in the middle of the cab) up on the dash, when applied a proper truck park brake can be heard blowing the air off and one glance at the handle you can see its either applied or it isn't, now the same as cars its just a dash switch which gives no noise on applying and the only way you know 44 tons is securely immobile is if the little red led is glowing under the switch.
The only people EPB benefit in trucks are the drivers who shouldn't be allowed within a mile of one in the first place, because so long as all the electronics are working once you open the driver's door the brake applies automatically.
The other thing about trucks is now we've gone EPB we've lost our full driver controllable secondary braking system, in the event of foot service brake failure the initial unlocked movement of the park brake lever would apply the service brakes in a similar gradually increasing way as does the footbrake valve, now its just a switch on or off, what the result would be applying that switch if the footbrake valve failed i haven't the foggiest but obviously the driver is now out of the equation making a gentle contolled stop....i won't further complicate truck secondary braking by discussing the superior UK 3 line design ditched many decades ago to comply with the inferior european 2 line system, the 3 line system offered completely seperate air lines operated by a second brake lever often referred to as the dead man, main service line blew you had a complete second system as back up.
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Out of interest what are people's objections to electric / push button handbrakes? I mean...they do exactly the same job with less effort and easier use. They are also more reliable (yes, honestly, they are - the only ones I know which give trouble are the very early Renault ones).
I don't want to worry anyone but people seemingly haven't noticed that the manual gearbox and clutch is also nearly RIP with ever dwindling sales and most manufacturers dropping them......
My objections?
First off an answer to a problem that didn't exist for most of us that can control our vehicles on hil starts and tight maneuvering, just another notch in the deskilling ratchet, i've covered millions of miles and never did i desire something electronic for parking brake operation, in years gone by cable or rod operated park brakes on trucks weren't great admittedly in some cases operating on a brake drum built into the diff) but once air sprung safety brakes became a thing and park brakes became air operated these were the best of all and still are imho.
Added complication, not only more electronics and servo motors (themselves in the most inhospitable of places regarding wet and salt corrosion etc) but more equipment needed for periodic brake servicing, which means for most workshops already reluctant if even capable of correct car brake servicing will be even more reluctant, if thats possible, to whip the pads out clean and lube things up properly and exercise the pistons in their bores because more dismantling required as well as electronic intervention to put the system into service mode in the first place.
Compare to my own cars, all of which have manual drum inside disc park brakes, which not only give no trouble at all it also means the calipers are as simple and easy to dismantle and service or whatever as the simplest front calipers are because all they do is provide service braking from the brake pedal.
They've even found their way onto artics now, over the last 40 years where once one applied a locking park brake lever, usually (except for VW group MAN who managed to hide the thing beside the driver's seat base in the middle of the cab) up on the dash, when applied a proper truck park brake can be heard blowing the air off and one glance at the handle you can see its either applied or it isn't, now the same as cars its just a dash switch which gives no noise on applying and the only way you know 44 tons is securely immobile is if the little red led is glowing under the switch.
Take your point on trucks and maybe progressive control but honestly they need far less maintenance than manual ones. I don't think I've had to sort one EPB in the last 500+ cars I've dealt with but have had several seized, broken or otherwise needing work manual ones. Most garages also much prefer them for replacing brake pads - simply pressing a button is much quicker than messing around with windback tools etc.
As for the equipment needed just about any £100 box will do the vast majority of them. That's cheaper than a decent socket set. Any garage which hasn't for some sort of basic diag machine really needs to find a new trade. They cheap as chips on eBay.
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.... they need far less maintenance than manual ones. I don't think I've had to sort one EPB in the last 500+ cars I've dealt with but have had several seized, broken or otherwise needing work manual ones.
You were lucky - or (most likely) your cars were newer. I recently had to fork out £500 for what I thought would be a simple job for my indy to replace the original rear pads on my 2005 Audi A8. (Fronts were easy enough but I didn't trust myself with the EPB VCDS rewind malarkey). The caliper had seized and wouldn't wind back fully. Still, I suppose you could argue that a mechanical system might have needed more attention during the previous 18yrs.
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Is it a coincidence that it’s mostly three cylinder engines that feature in the problems pages of this website.
Noteably the Pure-tech, Ford eco tech and Honda three cylinder engines all fitted with internal fibre cam belts that have caused problems that the manufacturers have been slow to acknowledge .
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Is it a coincidence that it’s mostly three cylinder engines that feature in the problems pages of this website.
Noteably the Pure-tech, Ford eco tech and Honda three cylinder engines all fitted with internal fibre cam belts that have caused problems that the manufacturers have been slow to acknowledge .
It is the cambelt that is causing the problem, not that it has three cylinders.
Running a cambelt through the oil on the Puretech seems intuitively foolish - even though the design (one assumes) must have been thought through by experts first.
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Is it a coincidence that it’s mostly three cylinder engines that feature in the problems pages of this website.
Noteably the Pure-tech, Ford eco tech and Honda three cylinder engines all fitted with internal fibre cam belts that have caused problems that the manufacturers have been slow to acknowledge .
It is the cambelt that is causing the problem, not that it has three cylinders.
Running a cambelt through the oil on the Puretech seems intuitively foolish - even though the design (one assumes) must have been thought through by experts first.
Preferred by the bean-counters, more likely, as cheaper than chain drive.
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<< Running a cambelt through oil on the Puretech seems intuitively foolish - even though the design (one assumes) must have been thought through by experts first. >>
Perhaps by mechanical, not chemical, engineers ?
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<< Running a cambelt through oil on the Puretech seems intuitively foolish - even though the design (one assumes) must have been thought through by experts first. >>
Perhaps by mechanical, not chemical, engineers ?
They should still have sufficient training and experience to check that sort of thing out during the R&D phase before going ahead to manufacture.
As I found during my time as a mechanical engineer in the construction industry, designs / concepts can get 'imposed' from above to save on time / cost. Increasingly, colleagues were less inclined to push back on bad practices / poor designs because pleasing their boss, keeping their job and getting pay rises / promotions was more important.
Plus, yes, firms in many industries are now using less and less experienced / qualified people to do, and just as important, check work, if it's done at all, other than perhaps by the originator.
It's one of the many reasons I left that industry, which in my view was much worse (and getting worse since the 2008 bad economic times) in regards bad practice than the car industry.
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Is it a coincidence that it’s mostly three cylinder engines that feature in the problems pages of this website.
Noteably the Pure-tech, Ford eco tech and Honda three cylinder engines all fitted with internal fibre cam belts that have caused problems that the manufacturers have been slow to acknowledge .
I don't think it's a coincidence, but the lower number of cylinders isn't the cause. These engines are designed to be as small and light as possible to reduce overall weight and improve efficiency/emissions. That means belts in oil, plastic components and maintainability being compromised in favour of lower cost, weight and friction.
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I wonder if there are other complexities involved with the A8. I’ve just got a price from my indie on my Golf for discs and pads all round at £540. He itemised it and front and rears are pretty much equal. It would also be a different story if the EPB wasn’t working.
It’s less than I paid for my Civic brakes 5 years ago at a main dealer. They were £600.
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The plethora of "wet belts" and dodgy timing chains is primarily down the to endless legislative needs to drive down every fraction of a CO2 output in tests rather than costs. Although the friction and weight reduction might seem small every CO2 counts in an effort to get into a lower tax bracket and overall manufacturer average CO2 of the range.
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I find it fascinating the development in areas like this.
I’ve never owned a car with a EPP, but have driven them. I’ve recently bought a car with the principle of keeping things as simple as possible but those l have driven & everyone l know who has a car with one fitted, hasn’t experienced any major problem.
The car l bought (C Max) didn’t have a spare tyre, only a can of weld & a compressor. Like others, l’ve gone decades without having to change a complete flat tyre. I don’t want to stretch my luck & bought a space saver. Sod’s Law if it were to happen it’ll be at the most inconvenient time.
The 3 cylinder debate is the one that seems to polarise debate, from those that rare them to those that couldn’t live with them. I know a near neighbour that recently bought a Skoda Scala, with the 1litre tsi & rave about it. Something to consider for the future, but as l tend to buy cars with 50K plus on the clock, l want to see long term results for a small engine.
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Reading through all the posts regarding engines leads me to believe that “Green” trumps almost every decision these days ?
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Reading through all the posts regarding engines leads me to believe that “Green” trumps almost every decision these days ?
Handy thing is these same posts (often of doom) provide some of us with lists of engines, and many other things, to avoid.
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The 3 cylinder debate is the one that seems to polarise debate, from those that rare them to those that couldn’t live with them. I know a near neighbour that recently bought a Skoda Scala, with the 1litre tsi & rave about it. Something to consider for the future, but as l tend to buy cars with 50K plus on the clock, l want to see long term results for a small engine.
I have had an Ibiza with the 1.0 TSi, from new. It's now approaching 5 years old (75,000 miles), and has been totally fine.
When I bought the car, I was looking to change it at 5 years old. With the cost of new cars, I think I'll keep it for a while yet. Not sure how long to keep it for. Think another 3 years, which would take it to 120,000 miles, should be ok. But wondering If I would be chancing my luck to take it closer to 150,000 miles.
Just had a look on Auto Trader and see a 2017 Ibiza (1.0 TSi) with 142,000 miles. Also see a 2017 Leon (1.0 TSi) with 214,000 miles. Of course, we've no idea if the engines have given any trouble.
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Many years ago I had a 2002 Suzuki Swift with a 3 cylinder engine. A bit of vibration at idling speed but otherwise lovely and smooth running. I would regularly get up to 50mph and forget I was still in third gear.
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I have a VW Polo with a 3-cylinder 1.2 TDI diesel engine. Generally it drives fine and does about 60 mpg. The dangerous flaw with its engine, and other 3-cylinder cars, is the occasional flat-spot in acceleration when pulling away from a crawling speed in 2nd gear, like when entering a roundabout. You put your foot down and the car fails to accelerate but doesn't stall either.
Push button handbrakes - fine as long as they work properly. Lorries had air operated on-off handbrakes decades ago, usually operated by a blue toggle lever.
Space saver spare wheels. The Polo mentioned above has a spare tyre the same size and spec as the other wheels, but mounted on a steel wheel instead of VW alloys. Nevertheless it still has a yellow 50 mph speed limit sticker on it!
Edited by Sofa Spud on 03/09/2024 at 08:09
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.... The Polo mentioned above has a spare tyre the same size and spec as the other wheels, but mounted on a steel wheel instead of VW alloys. Nevertheless it still has a yellow 50 mph speed limit sticker on it!
So does our Peugeot 2008. 185/65 x 15 on a steel wheel instead of 205/50 x 17 on fancy alloys (designer dream, a pain to clean). Curiously, as well as the 50mph limit, the recommended pressure is 3bar (43.5psi). That's almost twice what's recommended for the similarly bulky tyres (185/70 x 13) on my TR7.
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The dangerous flaw with its engine, and other 3-cylinder cars, is the occasional flat-spot in acceleration when pulling away from a crawling speed in 2nd gear, like when entering a roundabout. You put your foot down and the car fails to accelerate but doesn't stall either.
I've driven more 3 cyl cars than I care to remember over the last 30+ years (including the VAG 1.4TDI) and that is something I have never experienced, at least not which can be attributed to the number of cylinders.
Any turbo car can experience lag to some degree or other which, along with gearing which is too long (in order to make it more efficient in simulated tests) can present noticeable flat spots. But that has nothing to do with cylinder count.
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.... The Polo mentioned above has a spare tyre the same size and spec as the other wheels, but mounted on a steel wheel instead of VW alloys. Nevertheless it still has a yellow 50 mph speed limit sticker on it!
So does our Peugeot 2008. 185/65 x 15 on a steel wheel instead of 205/50 x 17 on fancy alloys (designer dream, a pain to clean). Curiously, as well as the 50mph limit, the recommended pressure is 3bar (43.5psi). That's almost twice what's recommended for the similarly bulky tyres (185/70 x 13) on my TR7.
For comfort, pothole resistance and ease of cleaning, I would have good old steels with plastic trims every time.
The only advantage alloys have is that they're worth something when you sc*** the car. I'm not sure about the unsprung weight advantage either, I haven't noticed steels being heavier than some of the alloys I have taken off.
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<< The only advantage alloys have is that they're worth something when you sc*** the car. I'm not sure about the unsprung weight advantage either, I haven't noticed steels being heavier than some of the alloys I have taken off. >>
Exactly. Magnalium alloy is much less dense than steel, but loses all that advantage as it is more brittle, so has to be a lot thicker. But it can be cast into all kinds of trendy shapes which stylists love !!
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I have a VW Polo with a 3-cylinder 1.2 TDI diesel engine. Generally it drives fine and does about 60 mpg. The dangerous flaw with its engine, and other 3-cylinder cars, is the occasional flat-spot in acceleration when pulling away from a crawling speed in 2nd gear, like when entering a roundabout. You put your foot down and the car fails to accelerate but doesn't stall either.
Always the quandry at moving junctions especially with small turbo engines, will the start require dropping to first or will 2nd do, if you drop to first too soon and the space suddenly clears you're revving it like heck and having to take another quick shift back to 2nd.
Toyotas little N/A 3 pot i always found a surprisingly torquey engine, course it didn;t have any mid range grunt because no compressed air intake but then it didn't suffer turbo lag, similarly i always found NA Diesels a much nicer urban drive for the same reasons, but with older turboDiesels if you gave the fuel screw a half a turn to increase fuel engine tractability was transformed.
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