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boiler noise - maz64

It's a Worcester Bosch Greenstar 25i combi, which we had installed about 5 years ago I think. Every now and again, perhaps 5 to 10 times a day, it makes a sort of motor running noise for about 10 seconds, fairly consistent, steady pitch, more of a grinding noise than a whirring. There's a definite start and stop; it sounds quite controlled.

Can't match it up with any of these:

idealheating.com/tips-and-advice/why-is-my-boiler-...e

It's also making the 'quiet whirring' - pump appears to be working ok, at least when it's not making this short lived, occasional grinding noise.

I think it's doing this more often than it used to; we've got a man coming to give it its yearly service, but that's not until January.

Any ideas?

boiler noise - maz64

Forgot to say - we've got a water softener, although that's in a cupboard downstairs and the noise is definitely coming from the airing cupboard upstairs where the boiler is located.

boiler noise - Heidfirst

Is your boiler firing when this happens? Could well be the condensate pump running.

boiler noise - maz64

Oooh... that sounds very plausible. Although I've tried to find some examples of the noise one of those makes on youtube, and the few I can find don't seem to match what I'm hearing. Still think you're right though - will try to catch it in the act next time and see whether boiler is firing.

boiler noise - Chris M

"Could well be the condensate pump running."

Out of interest, what's the purpose of the condensate pump? I'm pretty certain our Worcester Bosch relies on gravity.

boiler noise - FP

I assume "condensate pump" means the fan that aids combustion in the boiler. I don't think gravity comes into the functioning specifically of the boiler.

All systems these days have a circulation pump. The days of gravity alone circulating the water around system are long past - it was too inefficient. On the other hand, gravity may well be pressurising the system, if there is a "header tank" in the loft, but even that is now old-fashioned, and modern systems use mains water pressure.

boiler noise - Chris M

I'm not referring to the circulation pump or gravity in that context.

Condensation forms on the heat exchanger and it drips off and (in my WB) collects in a small plastic vessel at the bottom of the boiler. When the vessel is full, there's a "float" which tips the contents out into the condensate pipe and hence into the drain. All done by gravity. No pump. My boiler is not a combi and is now coming up to 14 trouble free years. Do newer boilers have condensate pump?

boiler noise - Heidfirst

I'm not referring to the circulation pump or gravity in that context.

Condensation forms on the heat exchanger and it drips off and (in my WB) collects in a small plastic vessel at the bottom of the boiler. When the vessel is full, there's a "float" which tips the contents out into the condensate pipe and hence into the drain. All done by gravity. No pump. My boiler is not a combi and is now coming up to 14 trouble free years. Do newer boilers have condensate pump?

My Worcester Highflow does - admittedly it is a floorstanding rather than wall hung boiler

boiler noise - Engineer Andy

"Could well be the condensate pump running."

Out of interest, what's the purpose of the condensate pump? I'm pretty certain our Worcester Bosch relies on gravity.

Nothing to do with the heating or DHW pipework - the condensate (essentially slightly acidic water [akin to 'acid rain'] that the boiler condenses from the hot-ish exhaust gases to reabsorb heat back into the heating return to the boiler via a heat exchanger.

This (not very) 'acidic water' must be drained away, and if the boiler is near a drain (sink, wash basin or waste downpipe, it should be able to drain by gravity into that.

With some boiler installations (like my flat's original one), there's no nearby drain-off point to do so via gravity, and thus the water has to be pumped instead - normally up and over to the nearest drain in another area of the home.

I'm not sure if the OP's 'errant noise' is one of these running - it could be, but my unit (run to support a 4yo combi in my flat) runs a maximum of 3x a day. Many are quite noisy, but only run for 3-5 seconds each time.

I suppose a larger system could be configured to run in condensing mode more often (and thus the pump runs more often), but that's uncommon, mostly on newer properties or substantially refurbed ones, given you have to seriously bump up the radiator sizes or go to an underfloor heating system to take advantage of the heating lower flow and return temperatures.

boiler noise - Andrew-T

We have a combi boiler, a Celsia (which I think is a rebadged Worcester), now over 20 years old. I have never heard it make the noises you describe. I am meant to add mains water from time to time to maintain about 1 bar pressure - I was wondering whether a newer model might do that automatically ?

Generally the boiler gives no trouble, but it was partially rebuilt 8 years ago when an internal leak developed in the heat exchanger. The most obvious symptoms were loss of water from the condensate outlet, and a 50% increase in our water consumption ... At about the same time the boiler fan started making mechanical noise, so that was replaced.

Edited by Andrew-T on 07/12/2023 at 17:46

boiler noise - Xileno

My Worcester Bosch Greenstar makes the same noise, it's the pump. I don't know why they do it but mine doesn't do it as often as yours, maybe a few times a week. The boiler has otherwise been fine so I ignore it (fitted 2012)

boiler noise - Heidfirst

We have a combi boiler, a Celsia (which I think is a rebadged Worcester), now over 20 years old. I have never heard it make the noises you describe. I am meant to add mains water from time to time to maintain about 1 bar pressure - I was wondering whether a newer model might do that automatically ?

There certainly are systems where that is possible though with some it may be an optional addon.

e.g. www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/products/accessories/dir...m

Edited by Heidfirst on 08/12/2023 at 11:31

boiler noise - Engineer Andy

It's a Worcester Bosch Greenstar 25i combi, which we had installed about 5 years ago I think. Every now and again, perhaps 5 to 10 times a day, it makes a sort of motor running noise for about 10 seconds, fairly consistent, steady pitch, more of a grinding noise than a whirring. There's a definite start and stop; it sounds quite controlled.

Can't match it up with any of these:

idealheating.com/tips-and-advice/why-is-my-boiler-...e

It's also making the 'quiet whirring' - pump appears to be working ok, at least when it's not making this short lived, occasional grinding noise.

I think it's doing this more often than it used to; we've got a man coming to give it its yearly service, but that's not until January.

Any ideas?

Aside from my other thoughts (see other comments), this could be the heating pump mistakenly doing a 'check run' (for about a second or two, rather like the noise when the pump is about to run when in normal mode) to stop it seizing up, as mine (4yo Vaillant) does during the summer when the heating is off. That should happen only once a day though, not 5-10x or for 10sec.

Maybe you could record the noise it makes on your phone and post it on the Interwebs somewhere for us to listen to. Might also be worth seeing if any fault codes have come up (see the manual to how to check this).

boiler noise - maz64

Thanks all. I'm not so sure now that it is a condensate pump - the boiler is upstairs so you'd think it could be left to gravity, and it does seem quite loud for a simple pump. The heating came on at 7 this morning and the first instance of 'the noise' followed not long after - it was a long one, possibly about 20 seconds. Sounded like it was working harder.

I also don't think it's just the 'normal' circulation pump - that's barely audible when it's running, and it seems odd that if would make this other noise.

I'm going to try to record it. I downloaded the Smart Recorder app yesterday which can be configured to ignore 'silence' - I'll leave it running on my phone in the airing cupboard. I tried it out last night - left it running on my bedside table. Interesting :)

EDIT and I'll look for fault codes, good idea

Edited by maz64 on 08/12/2023 at 07:25

boiler noise - Adampr

Have you recently turned the flow temperature down, as is all the rage this year?

boiler noise - maz64

I think my wife said she turned it up a few weeks ago when winter got going.

boiler noise - maz64

Got it! There's about 4 secs of normal boiler noise before it starts. Goes on for about 20 seconds, with it dropping down a notch for about the last 4. Enjoy.

audio.com/jm5678/audio/boiler

boiler noise - bathtub tom

I'd suggest that's something to do with the pump. Has it got a method of venting just that to bleed it?

boiler noise - maz64

Not sure. I've found an interesting page in the manual which states:

code 357- Appliance in air purge mode.

- Primary heat exchanger air venting program active - approximately 100 seconds.

Don't know if that's what you mean, but whatever it's doing is only taking about 20 secs (and I think that's increased from when I started this thread).

Manual here if anyone's interested; codes are on page 12. Next time I hear the noise I'll try pressing the info button to see what state it's in.

www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/professional/support/lit...s

boiler noise - maz64

...or were you talking about a mechanism that might prevent this from happening?

boiler noise - Xileno

Sounds like the noise mine makes and lasts about 20 secs. I haven't noticed it making the noise for quite a long time now.

boiler noise - maz64

Ok thanks Xileno - I know you said earlier that you thought we were hearing the same noise.

I'd like to know what it is though, and the fact it seems to be happening more often and for longer is a bit of a worry.

Edited by maz64 on 08/12/2023 at 17:20

boiler noise - Chris M

How about just getting your man round a month early?

boiler noise - Engineer Andy

To be honest, I've never heard that noise before. It sounds also fan-like, though admittedly the recording may have distorted the sound a bit.

My thoughts (guesses, really) are:

1. The heating pump possibly be either partially blocked up with sludge or some other detritus, or cavitating for some reason, though not sure why. Is the system actually operating at the time or is it in a dormant period?

My old (unreliable) Range Powermax boiler was notorious for the automatic air vent gumming up and locking out because the pressure sensor is in the vicinity of the AAV at the top of the boiler, meaning air gets trapped and it thinks it out of pressure. The pump could be trying to pump air if your AAV isn't doing its job.

2. The flue fan is trying to do *something*. No idea what though - it may be a fault that's slowly getting worse over time.

3. Either the pump or fan's bearings are failing because of the fault that makes the unit operate far more often / as it shouldn't, rather like one of my local LED streetlights that is currently switching on/off every second or two and which will likely cause the unit to fail due to it going through its entire on/off lifecycle in a few days. Most electronic devices prefer being either on or off, not switching on and off a lot.

If I were you, I'd get your plumber out asap, just in case the whole unit goes down, especially at this time of the year when you most need it and its working the hardest. If they can successfully diagnose the fault before it fails, any replacement part will hopefully be procured prior to the Christmas shutdown of all the suppliers.

The last thing you want is no heating or hot water for several days and no way of fixing it.

boiler noise - maz64

Thanks again - apologies for not coming back sooner.

Regarding the 357 code I mentioned above, it doesn't actually show that when it's making the noise; I saw it in the 'previous state' info option after the noised stopped, and assumed the 2 were related. Don't think they are now.

In fact I managed to bring up the 'current state' info option while it was making the noise the other day and it claimed that it was in a normal operating mode.

However, I have also seen 276 'flow sensor fault' a couple of times, not when it's making the noise, but at other times during the day. So there is definitely a problem, although not sure whether it's related.

Thanks for the list Andy; my thoughts are

  1. The pump is working a lot of the time when it's cold (boiler probably should be higher capacity and/or house better insulated). I feel that the noise would be more frequent with less well defined start/stop if it was being caused by a dodgy pump. I think the pump has been working at least most times I've heard the noise.
  2. Noise doesn't sound like a flue fan type of noise to my ears; too 'solid'/grindy.
  3. Sort of like (1) - feels too infrequent/distinct to be those.

But probably less educated guesses than yours.

Getting the man round early is looking more and more like the best option. Not quite as straightforward as it sounds for reasons I'm not going to bore you with, but will try.

Edited by maz64 on 14/12/2023 at 13:49

boiler noise - Engineer Andy

Best to get him out asap, given S*d's Law will cause the unit to pack up over Christmas. Hopefully it'll be something that can be easily / quickly repaired replaced on a like-for-like basis.

Pumps these days - at least in the better boiler makes, should be more than capable of lasting the average lifetime of the boiler, which for small footprint ones like combis / wall-mounted system boilers is around 15 years.

Worcester-Bosch boilers are decent quality (top three with Vaillant and Viessmann last time I checked), so the pump should be. I presume that your unit is not under warranty? You may have been unlucky on that score as increasingly the top brands now offer minimum 5 year warranties, and 7 & 10 year ones if fitted by one of their 'expert' fitters, which essentially is just a plumber who's done an extra course or two to justify a higher fitting charge.

My Vaillant, fitted in 2019, came with a 10 year warranty - which covers everything (parts and labour - manufacturer repair - not my plumber) aside from the wall controller (only 1 year I think) and heat exchangers (2 years). Quite handy as the unit ages. I must admit than mine wasn't as reliable as I'd hoped - 3 callouts (FOC) in the first 3 years, though none this year.

I might go for a Worcester-Bosch next time, or Viessmann if there was a decent plumber who knows them (parts and local plumbers who know the units more difficult to come by than other makes).

boiler noise - maz64

Still under warranty - about 4 years old. Will check what it covers.

boiler noise - maz64

Checked warranty here: www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/guarantee-check

Covered until Aug 2029 :)

Although the list of what's not covered is longer than the list of what's covered. Not unreasonably it doesn't cover failures caused by:

  • Failure to install to manufactures [their typo] instructions or relevant standards
  • Contaminated system water
  • Contaminated or insufficient fuel
  • Non Bosch controls or ancillary products
  • System (non boiler) related issues
  • Lack of annual maintenance
  • Incorrectly specified equipment

So would have to be a bit careful to find all the service records before calling them out.

boiler noise - maz64

Boiler man here now, and the answer is... condensate pump, as suggested by Heidfirst. Man says 4 or 5 times a day is fine.

He's going to look into the 276 flow sensor fault.

boiler noise - Engineer Andy

Boiler man here now, and the answer is... condensate pump, as suggested by Heidfirst. Man says 4 or 5 times a day is fine.

He's going to look into the 276 flow sensor fault.

4-5x a day - fine, for a more powerful boiler configured to run in condensing mode a lot. More than that, no, in my view. The float sensors can fail, sometimes by the reservoir getting clogged up with gunk, though far more of a problem on A/C systems with them, as it's ordinary water rather than slightly acidic.

Might be worth your plumber checking the reservoir and pump impeller and cleaning as necessary at the next service if the unit has become noisier and running more often than originally.

boiler noise - sajid

Had a bosch Worcester 24i junior installed 2011 replaced with a baxi 830 model2

30 kw boiler . Old boiler broke down 4 times during its lifespan flow rate pipe was replaced as the part was made of mixed plastics. Other internal parts again plastic were replaced.

Changed to baxi 10 year warranty all parts internal brass and steel.

Older boilers tend to consume more gas due to rust, age the return water from the radiator

Can include debris like bits of rust, the baxi has a built in magnetic filter which traps the metal filings.

I had the system powerflushed before installing.

Local plumber gave me advise to which boiler to go for he says u want bosch worcester its a audi you want valliant its a Mercedes u want baxi a toyota

boiler noise - Engineer Andy

Local plumber gave me advise to which boiler to go for he says u want bosch worcester its a audi you want valliant its a Mercedes u want baxi a toyota

Not sure about that analogy. In my experience, Baxi were always a middle-of-the-road outfit, product quality-wise. They may have improved - do you have any reports (e.g. from Which? magazine, etc) to validate your plumber's claim? I also did here that Ideal had made some decent improvements. Many will often big up what they (mainly) are most familiar with in order to get more business.

In my view, Vaillant and Worcester Bosch were top of the tree for gas domestic boilers for a long while, with Vaillant being easier to use but not as good on the reliability front, plus more plumbers appear to be familiar with Worcester Bosch ones.

I think that in more recent times, Vaillant have regressed to some degree, though perhaps it depends upon which boiler you buy.

I think that Vaillant have been overtaken on the reliability front by Viessmann, though sourcing a plumber who is familiar with them ( install and maintain) locally is much more difficult than the other two, as their boilers aren't sold in that many numbers in the UK.

Many makes offer 7 and 10 year warranties, depending upon who installs the boiler. Whether a system should be power-flushed depends really on how old it is, the type and condition of the pipes, connections and radiators, as on older systems, doing so can easily open up holes or break open pipe connections previously held together by the build up of crud in the system over decades.

More so on systems with metal pipes than plastic ones (less joints and likely a newer system).

boiler noise - Xileno

I've had both Vaillant and WB in recent houses. I don't think there's much to separate them.

Biggest problem is finding a competent service/repair person. I don't know what it takes to get a brand-accredited badge on the side of a van but I suspect not much. If you find a good person grab them with both arms and fit the boiler they recommend as they will be fixing it at some point.

boiler noise - bathtub tom

I had an IDEAl fitted during lockdown (there wasn't anything else available). It's supposed to have a ten year warranty, subject to servicing conditions, I guess like modern car main dealer stipulations. OK so far, but I'm getting servicing through IDEAL.