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Mon 7 Aug 2023 12:48

20 MPH - sammy1

Calls for more 20mph speed limits on roads around the UK to protect cyclists and pedestrians (msn.com)

No apologies for bringing tis up again. It is going to be a very serious issue if not already. For Wales as a whole this could have a serious impact on its economy as I can see why firms night not want to set up here or even leave. The 30mph limit was introduced as far back as 1934. There was hardly any traffic around then and in the last 10 years traffic has gone ballistic. However in simple terms vehicles with Fred Flintstone stopping power have moved on a lot and todays cars are entirely different in terms of braking efficiency. The argument for 20s in residential areas is noble and difficult to argue against. However there will always be road casualties because both pedestrians and road users are inattentive for one reason or another. The other argument is added pollution at 30 rather than 20 and well I like to see concrete proof of this because to me it does not make much sense and would be miniscule in any case The article says Scotland is next so where will England go. The real world reality when you are out and about is that a lot of drivers do not stick to limits and the resources employed to catch them are inadequate if indeed there is any great will other than to make a few quid. Near where I live is one of those signs that trigger a vehicles passing speed on the 30 road. 40 45 is fairly normal even had a 60 the other evening. Most drivers are responsible and will largely drive to suit the conditions. However there are those that don't including the uninsured and those with no licences So we are all about to ""suffer" for the few as is the norm these days. How many times will you read of a report of an accident involving a banned or compromised driver and it is usually serious. If these 20s are about to come and stay then the whole motor trade will be affected. People will not want to drive which is perhaps part of the thinking and certainly EVs will come more into their own. I can see your bigger and more powerful cars becoming obsolete. Public transport as an alternative is a complete joke away from cities.

There is a joke already doing the rounds in Wales. ""Will CYCLISTS please leave 1.5 metres when overtaking cars.

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Mon 7 Aug 2023 12:57

20 MPH - movilogo

I am looking at 20 MPH from a different perspective now, after changing from petrol to hybrid car.

In a pure ICE car, driving at 20 MPH is faff, it burns too much fuel and sometime auto transmission hunts for gears.

But in a hybrid (so in EV too) driving at 20 MPH is a relatively pleasnt experience. As long battery has charge car runs on battery alone, saving me from wasting fuel altogether.

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Mon 7 Aug 2023 13:09

20 MPH - Bolt

In a pure ICE car, driving at 20 MPH is faff, it burns too much fuel and sometime auto transmission hunts for gears.

Not a problem in a manual, and if the 20mph has humps or cushions depending on height of hump angle going over, 3rd is just about right and able to go over all at 20...maybe the odd change into 2nd if a steep hump but apart from that!

a lot of roads in Bromley are now 20mph and have got used to them, though a lot don`t stick to it and you can hear those crashing the front of the car as they go over humps

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Mon 7 Aug 2023 13:15

20 MPH - Adampr

Again, it's a default, not a blanket limit.

Traffic in urban areas tends to go at about 20mph on average anyway, and people going at 20, rather than alternating between 10 and 30, will reduce pollution and make life more pleasant for everyone.

30mph hardly conjures a sense of freedom, so I don't really see why driving at 20 instead is going to affect the pleasure of driving or market for faster cars.

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Mon 7 Aug 2023 13:23

20 MPH - movilogo

Perhaps motorists should agree on a deal - 20 MPH in town center is fine as long as motorway speed limit is raised, say to 80 MPH.

Most modern cars capable of doing 100 MPH easily. There will be always some problematic drivers but that's true at any speed so that can't be excuse for not raising motorway speed limit.

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Mon 7 Aug 2023 15:34

20 MPH - Andrew-T

Perhaps motorists should agree on a deal - 20 MPH in town center is fine as long as motorway speed limit is raised, say to 80 MPH. Most modern cars capable of doing 100 MPH easily. There will be always some problematic drivers but that's true at any speed so that can't be excuse for not raising motorway speed limit.

Quite a lot of vehicles can easily exceed the M'way speed limit, but any vehicle doing much over 60 will do fewer mpg, simply because of increasing air and rolling resistance. If you have the slightest interest in using less fuel you (all of us) should bear that in mind. Plus of course the possible result of any big collisions.

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Mon 7 Aug 2023 13:30

20 MPH - Terry W

The joy of local democracy is that you can vote for whoever promises to scrap the proposal if you want. Why should Westminster want to get involved.

20mph has some plausible benefits:

reduced injuries and deaths compared to 30mph, although some research shows the frequency of accidents is little changed
reduced emissions partly from the speed reduction, but more important (probably) is less braking and acceleration
it may make little difference to average speeds in practice - less waiting at junctions and traffic lights, more time spent driving

More significant is whether it makes any difference at all to actual driving habits. The law abiders will follow the rules, most others will drive (probably below 35mph) to suit conditions, a few routinely ignore the rules as policing is spasmodic at best.

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Mon 7 Aug 2023 13:42

20 MPH - Bolt

The joy of local democracy is that you can vote for whoever promises to scrap the proposal if you want. Why should Westminster want to get involved.

20mph has some plausible benefits:

reduced injuries and deaths compared to 30mph, although some research shows the frequency of accidents is little changed

reduced emissions partly from the speed reduction, but more important (probably) is less braking and acceleration

it may make little difference to average speeds in practice - less waiting at junctions and traffic lights, more time spent driving

More significant is whether it makes any difference at all to actual driving habits. The law abiders will follow the rules, most others will drive (probably below 35mph) to suit conditions, a few routinely ignore the rules as policing is spasmodic at best.

Actually doesnt make any difference to anything apart from your travelling slower, pedestrians take thier time crossing the road as they dont always hear cars coming at 20mph, we have the cleanest air we have ever had so 20mph makes no difference whatsoever..all in the name of trying to get cars off the road

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Mon 7 Aug 2023 21:50

20 MPH - alan1302

The joy of local democracy is that you can vote for whoever promises to scrap the proposal if you want. Why should Westminster want to get involved.

20mph has some plausible benefits:

reduced injuries and deaths compared to 30mph, although some research shows the frequency of accidents is little changed

reduced emissions partly from the speed reduction, but more important (probably) is less braking and acceleration

it may make little difference to average speeds in practice - less waiting at junctions and traffic lights, more time spent driving

More significant is whether it makes any difference at all to actual driving habits. The law abiders will follow the rules, most others will drive (probably below 35mph) to suit conditions, a few routinely ignore the rules as policing is spasmodic at best.

Actually doesnt make any difference to anything apart from your travelling slower, pedestrians take thier time crossing the road as they dont always hear cars coming at 20mph, we have the cleanest air we have ever had so 20mph makes no difference whatsoever..all in the name of trying to get cars off the road

Hit someone at 30mph and they are more likely to be killed than at 20mph - makes quite a big difference. Also you can stop quicker at 20mph to a halt than from 30mph.

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Mon 7 Aug 2023 21:33

20 MPH - Bolt

will reduce pollution and make life more pleasant for everyone.

not sure how, as it makes no difference with petrol cars, its diesels who smoke everyone out going over humps and changing gears in 20 limits even newish diesels can be smokers...

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Mon 7 Aug 2023 21:51

20 MPH - alan1302

will reduce pollution and make life more pleasant for everyone.

not sure how, as it makes no difference with petrol cars, its diesels who smoke everyone out going over humps and changing gears in 20 limits even newish diesels can be smokers...

If they are broken they maybe...I know mine does not smoke.

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Mon 25 Sep 2023 11:49

20 MPH - HGV ~ P Valentine

Wrong on the diesel except the old ones.

"In reducing the NOx content of a diesel car’s exhaust emissions by turning it into water vapour and nitrogen via a chemical reaction, AdBlue helps reduce the emissions of nitrogen dioxides"

Most modern diesels with ad blue most they have fewer emissions then most cars, also a diesel engine will last 3 times longer then its petrol counterpart so less engines needed, they also generally do more mpg and are more reliable.

There is a reason why industrial vehicles spend more money on fuel and will continue to keep diesel engines in their vehicles.

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Mon 7 Aug 2023 23:24

20 MPH - Adampr

will reduce pollution and make life more pleasant for everyone.

not sure how, as it makes no difference with petrol cars, its diesels who smoke everyone out going over humps and changing gears in 20 limits even newish diesels can be smokers...

As I said, driving at a constant 20mph is obviously better than constantly accelerating and braking.

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Mon 7 Aug 2023 22:10

20 MPH - Metropolis.

I agree.

Despite all the evidence of transport infrastructure giving economic benefits, we sure do make it hard for people to get around in the best form of transport.

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Mon 7 Aug 2023 23:22

20 MPH - alan1302

I agree. Despite all the evidence of transport infrastructure giving economic benefits, we sure do make it hard for people to get around in the best form of transport.

That's because there are negatives to cars as well, so it's a balancing act.

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Tue 8 Aug 2023 08:50

20 MPH - Bolt

I agree. Despite all the evidence of transport infrastructure giving economic benefits, we sure do make it hard for people to get around in the best form of transport.

That's because there are negatives to cars as well, so it's a balancing act.

This balancing act is getting us nowhere, apart from more traffic jams that need not be there, its already been proved the air is cleaner now than it ever has been, but they still want us to pay for something that we didn`t do in the first place, just an excuse to make money.

the place that should be cleaned up no one has mentioned, the underground that is around 12 times worse in particulates than anywhere else in London. but no lets hit the motorist and blame them for poor air that doesn`t exist.

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Tue 8 Aug 2023 08:59

20 MPH - Catfood

I'm happy to drive at either 20mph or 30mph as long as there is no sleeping policeman which I can feel damaging the suspension of my car as well as forcing needless acceleration and braking.....

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Tue 8 Aug 2023 09:30

20 MPH - Andrew-T

<< ... it's already been proved the air is cleaner now than it ever has been ... >>

How do you define 'ever' ? I suppose most cities' atmospheres would have been pretty nasty for a long time, but elsewhere - perhaps any time before about 1970 in the country breathing would have been pleasant. A bit aromatic, maybe, but harmless.

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Mon 25 Sep 2023 12:56

20 MPH - madf

<< ... it's already been proved the air is cleaner now than it ever has been ... >>

How do you define 'ever' ? I suppose most cities' atmospheres would have been pretty nasty for a long time, but elsewhere - perhaps any time before about 1970 in the country breathing would have been pleasant. A bit aromatic, maybe, but harmless.

Yes: breathing smogs was so enjoyable,

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Tue 8 Aug 2023 13:09

20 MPH - alan1302

I agree. Despite all the evidence of transport infrastructure giving economic benefits, we sure do make it hard for people to get around in the best form of transport.

That's because there are negatives to cars as well, so it's a balancing act.

This balancing act is getting us nowhere, apart from more traffic jams that need not be there, its already been proved the air is cleaner now than it ever has been, but they still want us to pay for something that we didn`t do in the first place, just an excuse to make money.

the place that should be cleaned up no one has mentioned, the underground that is around 12 times worse in particulates than anywhere else in London. but no lets hit the motorist and blame them for poor air that doesn`t exist.

Can you show any proof for the air being cleaner than ever - or is it just your thoughts? I can't see it myself...before the industrial revolution started I'd have though the air much better than it is now.

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Tue 8 Aug 2023 13:48

20 MPH - badbusdriver

Some odd statements being made here!

pedestrians take thier time crossing the road as they dont always hear cars coming at 20mph

First off, in my own experience, a pedestrian is not going to cross the road slower because they think there is nothing coming. Second, is a car doing 20mph going to be harder to hear than one doing 30mph?. I think it highly doubtful the difference would be anything other than negligible. Also, unless they are blind or just don't care, pedestrians will look to see if there is anything coming, and a car approaching at 20mph is just as visible as one doing 30mph. If they are blind, they will most likely have a guide dog and/or will most likely only cross at a pedestrian crossing. If they just don't care, a car doing 30mph is more likely to hit them than one doing 20mph.

all in the name of trying to get cars off the road

How would a 20mph limit get cars off the road?

This balancing act is getting us nowhere, apart from more traffic jams that need not be there

This is confusing because you are complaining that a 20mph limit is in order to get cars off the road, but also complaining about traffic jams that need not be there. As I said, I don't see how a 20mph limit would reduce the volume of traffic, but if it did, that would surely also mean there would be less traffic jams?

its already been proved the air is cleaner now than it ever has been

A couple of others have mentioned this, but what do you mean? (since the big bang?)

but they still want us to pay for something that we didn`t do in the first place, just an excuse to make money.

Surely only drivers who are breaking the limit will have to pay anything?

Edited by badbusdriver on 08/08/2023 at 13:49

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Tue 8 Aug 2023 13:51

20 MPH - Terry W

Not Wales but London - however the principle is clear. Average speed of traffic:

8.7 mph to 7.1 mph in central London.
12.5 mph to 11.6 mph in inner London.
20.3 mph to 19.3 mph in outer London.

Not sure whether this is average of a 24 hour period, daytime, rush hour etc - it probably doesn't matter. Speeds between traffic lights, roundabouts etc exceed this.

There is limited/no opportunity to increase road space - bus lanes and cycle lanes excepted.

Even if cycle/bus lanes were given back to cars the general experience is that capacity created would soon be consumed by more cars.

There is insufficient road space to meet the demand for personal transport. 20mph limits, ULEZ, parking charges etc are all ways of reducing demand and increasing alternative means of travel - buses, tubes, cycling, walking, car sharing etc.

No point in complaining unless there is an alternative workable solution - passing the problem on to someone else doesn't help

Reality is that circumstances change - since 1996 the number of vehicles on UK roads has increased by 48% - but the coastline and space available does is unchanged.

Back to 20mph limits - it truly makes little difference to anything - a 2 miles cross town journey may take 6 mins not 4 mins at 30mph - assuming no congestion!!

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Tue 8 Aug 2023 15:20

20 MPH - sammy1

"""Back to 20mph limits - it truly makes little difference to anything - a 2 miles cross town journey may take 6 mins not 4 mins at 30mph - assuming no congestion!!""

It is not just about travel time although in most parts it will make a difference to those who have to drive for a living and others such as carers, district nurses the list is endless To a lot of people time is precious. These limits will also apply 24 hours where is the sense in this, sheer stupidity. There are no cyclists or pedestrians around for a very large portion of the day. A sledge hammer to crack a nut scenario.

The second point I might raise is the likely hood of drivers paying less attention either through constantly looking at their speedo or the sheer boredom of driving at this speed. Here in Wales you are not necessarily talking about a few miles at 20. There are already many B roads going on for miles at this 20 limit with a lot more to follow not a pedestrian in sight who might be about to jump into the road.

Strangely enough the country is not about average speeds in London of life as a whole.

The emissions argument is unproven. The government policies has put people into cars and made or making no provision to take them out of them other then pricing some of the roads

Educating children cyclists and pedestrians to the fact that you will get seriously injured if hit by a motor vehicle is the way to go. Some motorists also need educating.

I will come back now to the lawlessness that is the bicycle and scooter either electrical or peddled. The amount of carnage that these unrestricted 2 wheelers are causing is probably as much as your motor vehicle and NO insurance for the injured party.

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Tue 8 Aug 2023 17:50

20 MPH - FP

"For Wales as a whole this could have a serious impact on its economy as I can see why firms night not want to set up here or even leave."

Whether that's an option would depend on (a) the likelihood of England following suit with 20mph limits and (b) whether 20mph limits actually make that much economic difference.

"The argument for 20s in residential areas is noble and difficult to argue against."

Residential areas would probably account for the majority of the present 30mph limits; the rest consists mostly of town centres.

"The real world reality when you are out and about is that a lot of drivers do not stick to limits and the resources employed to catch them are inadequate if indeed there is any great will other than to make a few quid. Near where I live is one of those signs that trigger a vehicles passing speed on the 30 road. 40 45 is fairly normal even had a 60 the other evening."

Nothing to do with 20mph limits. Problems with drivers not sticking to speed limits is a whole separate issue.

"Most drivers are responsible and will largely drive to suit the conditions. However there are those that don't including the uninsured and those with no licences So we are all about to 'suffer' for the few as is the norm these days. How many times will you read of a report of an accident involving a banned or compromised driver and it is usually serious."

Again, nothing to do with 20mph limits.

"If these 20s are about to come and stay then the whole motor trade will be affected. People will not want to drive which is perhaps part of the thinking..."

I doubt it very much. The sheer convenience of personal transport will outweigh any real or perceived inconvenience of 20mph limits.

"Public transport as an alternative is a complete joke away from cities."

The areas where public transport is thin will be small towns and villages, therefore compact and fairly quickly navigated even with 20 mph limits.

As has been pointed out more than once, the actual average speed of daytime traffic in many urban areas is often around 20mph or less anyway.

Once again, we seem to be going round in circles, covering much the same ground as in previous discussions, with some irrelevance thrown in.

Edited by FP on 08/08/2023 at 18:03

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Tue 8 Aug 2023 18:47

20 MPH - Andrew-T

<< Public transport as an alternative is a complete joke away from cities. >>

This discussion has been done to death, but the 'joke' is because people living away from cities greatly prefer the convenience of a car - not having to wait in the rain, easier for carrying lots of shopping, etc . The usual downside is parking and paying for it. Many towns operate a halfway-house with Park & Ride.

As this preference takes hold, rural bus services become steadily less economic, especially when many passengers have bus passes. A vicious circle, but unless driving into towns becomes prohibitive (or impossible for some) I see little hope of reversing the trend.

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Tue 8 Aug 2023 19:59

20 MPH - Terry W

Public transport is typically only used where a car is unaffordable, health issues or similar intervene, or as the only realistic option for travel into heavily congested cities.

The marginal cost of driving approximates to a fuel cost of ~12-20p per mile despite a full cost (including depreciation, insurance, servicing etc) of ~40-50p per mile.

It is no surprise public transport cannot compete against marginal costs despite high taxes the motorist is subject to. The challenge for government is implementing policies which encourage more thoughtful use of energy having regard for climate change risks.

If you don't believe climate change is a threat, then it is all an unreasonable and unnecessary burden. Otherwise it is all about incentivising folk to use cars less, public transport more, or avoid travel completely.

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Tue 8 Aug 2023 23:12

20 MPH - Andrew-T

If you don't believe climate change is a threat, then it is all an unreasonable and unnecessary burden. Otherwise it is all about incentivising folk to use cars less, public transport more, or avoid travel completely.

Rural people can only use public transport more if it is available, and much has already been withdrawn. Its other disadvantages are a fixed, and often very spa***, timetable, and the fact that it may not take you where you want to go. (stupid undefeatable swear filter ... )

Edited by Andrew-T on 08/08/2023 at 23:14

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Wed 9 Aug 2023 00:50

20 MPH - Terry W

I agree with you. Cheap energy and personal transport has radically changed the way we live over the last 75 years. Commutes of many miles are common, high streets dead or dying, retail malls and out of town shopping, families increasingly widely spread.

The genie is out of the bottle. Squeezing it back in will be difficult - painful and difficult for some. For the next house move, job change etc folk should reflect more on the longer term future rather than immediate gratification of more money or bigger house.

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Wed 9 Aug 2023 13:55

20 MPH - sammy1

Having spent some £30 million on this 20mph madness the Welsh government announces a deficit of some £900 million in its budget and cuts to public services all because pedestrians are wandering its streets on their mobile phones not paying any attention to their own safety

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Wed 9 Aug 2023 14:58

20 MPH - FP

I suggest this is a gross oversimplification. In any case, you have already claimed you support 20mph limits in residential areas, so a bit of a contradiction.

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Wed 9 Aug 2023 17:20

20 MPH - sammy1

I suggest this is a gross oversimplification. In any case, you have already claimed you support 20mph limits in residential areas, so a bit of a contradiction.

NO your statement here is the only gross oversimplification. If you care to look the £900 million is fact and as usual it is not Welsh Gov fault but the UK according to the Welsh leader. As far as 20s are concerned I do NOT support the blanket 20 being introduced but welcome it in targeted areas such as schools but only in school time. Most school areas already have the 20 usually controlled by warning lights at the appropriate times which works very well.

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Wed 9 Aug 2023 18:33

20 MPH - FP

"NO your statement here is the only gross oversimplification."

Perhaps the meaning of "oversimplification" wasn't clear. You said higher up that, "having spent some £30 million on this 20mph madness" the Welsh government's financial deficit was "all because pedestrians are wandering its streets on their mobile phones not paying any attention to their own safety."

THAT is an over-simplification. I have no idea what oversimplification you're accusing me of.

"As far as 20s are concerned I do NOT support the blanket 20 being introduced but welcome it in targeted areas such as schools but only in school time."

You said in the first post in this thread, "The argument for 20s in residential areas is noble and difficult to argue against," so presumably you supported that when you wrote it. It now seems you're not sure.

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Wed 9 Aug 2023 19:24

20 MPH - sammy1

"""Perhaps the meaning of "oversimplification" wasn't clear. You said higher up that, "having spent some £30 million on this 20mph madness" the Welsh government's financial deficit was "all because pedestrians are wandering its streets on their mobile phones not paying any attention to their own safety."

THAT is an over-simplification. I have no idea what oversimplification you're accusing me of. ""

No it was not oversimplification it was sheer sarcasm on my part. The fact I said "" it is difficult to argue against "" does not mean I agree with it which I don't. It is very difficult arguing with many on here where I disagree.

Still the dye is cast on the 20 in Wales We shall soon see how popular it really is.

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Wed 9 Aug 2023 19:49

20 MPH - Xileno

"We shall soon see how popular it really is."

Indeed - and that's probably the best conclusion to this thread otherwise we will go over all the same issues yet again.

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Wed 9 Aug 2023 20:06

20 MPH - FP

"""Perhaps the meaning of "oversimplification" wasn't clear. You said higher up that, "having spent some £30 million on this 20mph madness" the Welsh government's financial deficit was "all because pedestrians are wandering its streets on their mobile phones not paying any attention to their own safety."

THAT is an over-simplification. I have no idea what oversimplification you're accusing me of. ""

No it was not oversimplification it was sheer sarcasm on my part. The fact I said "" it is difficult to argue against "" does not mean I agree with it which I don't. It is very difficult arguing with many on here where I disagree.

Still the dye is cast on the 20 in Wales We shall soon see how popular it really is.

"The fact I said "" it is difficult to argue against "" does not mean I agree with it which I don't." What does it mean, then?

Sometimes I wonder if there's any point in making a comment about what you post.

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Thu 10 Aug 2023 14:28

20 MPH - Heidfirst

As someone who lives in a very urban area I support a 20mph limit in residential areas but excepting major arterial/radial roads (tbh at peak hours you would struggle to hit 30mph on many of those major roads here anyway).

& as has been mentioned already even in places with existing 20mph limits here many people currently exceed that. I live on a street with a primary school within a couple of hundred yards of me & I reckon that some people are going through at 50/60mph (also ignoring slowing down for the 2 junctions from the school - we are all awaiting the next crash).

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Sat 12 Aug 2023 14:52

20 MPH - Bromptonaut

London has been a guinea pig for 20 limits for ages; whole boroughs have gone down the Welsh route. Is (say) Ealing an economic basket case as a result?

Is the Kingsway, Southampton Row, Woburn Place alignment worse now than before 20 came in?

I'm currently on holiday in France where the 50 kph (roughly 30 mph) urban limit is now reduced to 30 kph (roughly 20 mph).

I'd say none of the above are actually a problem to drive, cycle on or, in the UK - never used a local bus in France) - use public transport.

Comment deleted.

Edited by _ORB_ on 12/08/2023 at 17:26

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Sat 12 Aug 2023 17:34

20 MPH - _

London has been a guinea pig for 20 limits for ages; whole boroughs have gone down the Welsh route. Is (say) Ealing an economic basket case as a result?

Is the Kingsway, Southampton Row, Woburn Place alignment worse now than before 20 came in?

I go to Ealing a lot. Now there is the Elizabeth line we can go to Ealing Broadway or Acton Mainline. If one of us either to friend or dentist then Train from Colchester, if both car as some shopping done too and a meal in one of the excellent Iraqi restaurants in Park Royal.

As you say, Ealing is thriving, not many empty shops, there are some, but It's a fair place to be Acton High st is OK too..

The 20mph limit doesn't bother me a bit. Hangar lane is 30MPH when we use it, but in any of the roads we would never have got to 20 let alone 30.

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Sat 30 Sep 2023 23:30

20 MPH - Andrew-T

<< The 20mph limit doesn't bother me a bit. Hangar lane is 30MPH when we use it, but in any of the roads we would never have got to 20 let alone 30. >>

It is difficult, but not impossible, to manage 30mph on a pushbike, but a lot easier to keep up 20mph when traffic allows. Are keen cyclists likely to be fined like drivers for exceeding this Welsh limit ?

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Sun 1 Oct 2023 08:19

20 MPH - RT

<< The 20mph limit doesn't bother me a bit. Hangar lane is 30MPH when we use it, but in any of the roads we would never have got to 20 let alone 30. >>

It is difficult, but not impossible, to manage 30mph on a pushbike, but a lot easier to keep up 20mph when traffic allows. Are keen cyclists likely to be fined like drivers for exceeding this Welsh limit ?

Speed limits only apply to motorised vehicles - without number plates, they're unenforceable against cyclists, pedestrians or horse riders.

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Mon 25 Sep 2023 11:28

20 MPH - HGV ~ P Valentine

No argument from me you are right, if you have not seen it already then check out the link for the German town that is going to reduce the speed to 12, yes 12 mph and take out all the parking spaces.

I tell you the world has gone crazy.

Edited by HGV ~ P Valentine on 25/09/2023 at 11:31

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Wed 27 Sep 2023 19:11

20 MPH - movilogo

Welsh 20mph limit makes buses late and could lead to cuts in services

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/27/welsh-20mph-ma.../

On Wednesday, a spokesman for Arriva Wales said: “Arriva has been closely monitoring its timetables since the 20mph speed limit has come into force and is planning a review of its networks.

In his interview with The Telegraph, Prof Cole also suggested that urban buses were not engineered to travel at 20mph.

He said: “Most urban buses are automatic and they’re designed to be hardworking at 10mph and 30mph. They are never designed to travel 20mph.”

He said that buses were geared to either move in slow traffic or venture up to 30mph, the standard speed limit, when they hit less congested roads.

“But they can’t now, so the driver is expected to adjust the gearing constantly to override the system, which is a nuisance,” Mr Cole added.

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Wed 27 Sep 2023 19:48

20 MPH - badbusdriver

Welsh 20mph limit makes buses late and could lead to cuts in services

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/27/welsh-20mph-ma.../

On Wednesday, a spokesman for Arriva Wales said: “Arriva has been closely monitoring its timetables since the 20mph speed limit has come into force and is planning a review of its networks.

In his interview with The Telegraph, Prof Cole also suggested that urban buses were not engineered to travel at 20mph.

He said: “Most urban buses are automatic and they’re designed to be hardworking at 10mph and 30mph. They are never designed to travel 20mph.”

He said that buses were geared to either move in slow traffic or venture up to 30mph, the standard speed limit, when they hit less congested roads.

“But they can’t now, so the driver is expected to adjust the gearing constantly to override the system, which is a nuisance,” Mr Cole added.

What absolute and utter r******!

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Wed 27 Sep 2023 19:51

20 MPH - mcb100

‘ “But they can’t now, so the driver is expected to adjust the gearing constantly to override the system, which is a nuisance,” Mr Cole added.’

What does that mean?

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Wed 27 Sep 2023 22:27

20 MPH - alan1302

‘ “But they can’t now, so the driver is expected to adjust the gearing constantly to override the system, which is a nuisance,” Mr Cole added.’ What does that mean?

I think he means they need to change the gearing manually rather than letting the automatic look after it all.

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Thu 28 Sep 2023 08:03

20 MPH - badbusdriver

‘ “But they can’t now, so the driver is expected to adjust the gearing constantly to override the system, which is a nuisance,” Mr Cole added.’ What does that mean?

I think he means they need to change the gearing manually rather than letting the automatic look after it all.

On a bus designed for an urban environment, there would be no need for that whatsoever. The only type of bus which may find a steady 20mph awkward (and even then, only really when hills are involved) would be a long distance bus with a automated manual gearbox, particularly the single clutch type. It is also doubtful that a modern urban bus would have the facility for a driver to change gear manually, like in an automatic car (though there may be a means to prevent the bus from going beyond a given gear?)

Granted it has been a long time since I was a bus driver, but none of the buses we had at Stagecoach, at that time (2003-2009), would have any trouble sticking to 20mph.

But when considering the quote from Arriva Wales's spokesperson, bear in mind the average road traffic speed in most big city centres is less than 20mph anyway, an environment which urban buses are designed to work in.

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Thu 28 Sep 2023 08:29

20 MPH - mcb100

So by ‘changing the gearing’ he just means ‘changing gear’?
Or do they have a low/high range, like an off roader, which would ‘change the gearing’?.

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Thu 28 Sep 2023 16:22

20 MPH - KB.

It might have been asked before - but what happened to Sammy?

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Sun 1 Oct 2023 00:14

20 MPH - Adampr

So by ‘changing the gearing’ he just means ‘changing gear’? Or do they have a low/high range, like an off roader, which would ‘change the gearing’?.

I have been looking into this and...am none the wiser.

However, I was interested to see discover that a major reason almost all modern buses are automatic is wheelchair accessibility.

The engine is at the back, as we all know, so that's also the best place to put the gearbox to avoid any propshaft having to run the length of the bus (requiring ground clearance). If the bus was manual, there would need to be a linkage, so they did away with that too.

As for what this professor was on about, I think he was suggesting that modern buses do indeed have high and low ratios. I can certainly see things saying that modern (auto) buses have very short gearing to minimise the engine load. It seems like there is one setting for accelerating between 0 and 30 and another for crusing. Essentially an overdrive, I suppose. Presumably, trying to maintain a low speed with a short-geared auto would lead to a lot of hunting.

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Fri 29 Sep 2023 08:01

20 MPH - Xileno

I've removed some of the posts to curb speculation.

Clearly it is not appropriate to discuss individual moderation cases on the forum but for the time being sammy1 is not contributing to the forum. He may do so in the future.

As far as we're aware, sammy1 is well, probably walking his dog and enjoying his garden.

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Fri 29 Sep 2023 11:59

20 MPH - Ethan Edwards

What I find interesting is selective democracy amnesia as evidenced by Drakeford.

More people have signed the petition opposing this policy than ever voted for Drakeford. So I have read.

Yet here we are. It's imposed and he's not backing down.

ULEZ another "democratic" decision .

Never tell me again that we live in a democracy.

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Fri 29 Sep 2023 12:09

20 MPH - Sofa Spud

It's reported the government is planning to limit the use of 20 mph zones in England.

While I'm not against 20 mph limits or zones where they're really necessary, such as in town or city centres or perhaps in narrow, winding village streets, they should shouldn't be applied as a blanket policy as is happening in Wales.

The UK government should act for the whole UK and apply its policy to the whole country, not just England.

The cynical part of me agrees that a proposed roll-back of the 20 mph limits might be a vote winner for the Tories. While I agree that the policy 20 mph limits needs review on a UK-wide basis, this would certainly not persuade me to vote for the Tories!

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Fri 29 Sep 2023 13:08

20 MPH - alan1302

The cynical part of me agrees that a proposed roll-back of the 20 mph limits might be a vote winner for the Tories. While I agree that the policy 20 mph limits needs review on a UK-wide basis, this would certainly not persuade me to vote for the Tories!

I don't you even have to think about it cynically to know that's the only reason they would propose the roll back.

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Fri 29 Sep 2023 12:34

20 MPH - madf

What I find interesting is selective democracy amnesia as evidenced by Drakeford.

More people have signed the petition opposing this policy than ever voted for Drakeford. So I have read.

Yet here we are. It's imposed and he's not backing down.

ULEZ another "democratic" decision .

Never tell me again that we live in a democracy.

We live in a democracy

There is a General Election next year. (Did you vote in the last one?,If yes, good. If not, then it's YOUR fault:-)

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Fri 29 Sep 2023 13:54

20 MPH - Andrew-T

Never tell me again that we live in a democracy.

So presumably you don't bother to vote ? If you do, you must believe we live in one.

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Fri 29 Sep 2023 14:47

20 MPH - swansea_karl

Its nothing more than a deflection from the real issues facing the country. Hence why the Tories are making a big fuss about it.

Very few roads in Wales are 20 mph, its not a blanket ban as the Welsh Tories would have you believe.

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Fri 29 Sep 2023 15:10

20 MPH - Bromptonaut

What I find interesting is selective democracy amnesia as evidenced by Drakeford.

More people have signed the petition opposing this policy than ever voted for Drakeford. So I have read.

The Labour and Plaid Manifestos both called for 20mph. It was approved by the Senedd with all party support.

That, and not some petition got up at the last minute, is what constitutes democracy.

If the people of Wales want it changed the democratic route is to (a) campaign and (b) vote at the next Senedd elections for candidates who will repeal the relevant order.

Same with the ULEZ except the elections will be those for the Mayor. Again though it had all party support and, for the extension as far as the N/S Circular roads, it was supported by the Westminster government.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 29/09/2023 at 15:35

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Mon 8 Jan 2024 12:54

20 MPH - movilogo

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/07/wales-speed-li.../

Motorists in Wales are allowed to drive at 25mph in 20mph zones before being prosecuted, it has emerged, in contrast to rules across the rest of Britain.

From Monday, drivers can be fined, receive points or even lose their licence for exceeding the new widespread 20mph speed limits on Welsh roads in residential areas.

But GoSafe Wales, the road safety partnership which brings together local authorities and the police, said the enforcement threshold would start at 10 per cent of the speed limit, plus 4mph – meaning prosecution begins at 26mph in a 20mph limit.

So it appears that you can drive at indicated 30 MPH in speedo and mostly be fine.

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Mon 8 Jan 2024 13:52

20 MPH - bazza

30mph indicated would put me slightly over 26, as my Speedo is more or less accurate at 30mph ( reads 29mph) . But yes, slight rolling back of the regs by the looks, living in Wales I can confirm it's extremely unpopular, poorly implemented , confusing and a ball ache, as one can often get stuck behind a mimser doing 10 to 15 mph just in case! Overtaking has become more common in 20mph areas!

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Thu 18 Apr 2024 12:10

20 MPH - Andrew-T

.... living in Wales I can confirm it's extremely unpopular, poorly implemented , confusing and a ball ache, as one can often get stuck behind a mimser doing 10 to 15 mph just in case! Overtaking has become more common in 20mph areas!

After more than 60 years driving I can report having received my first speeding 'ticket' - detected by a fixed camera at 26 in a new 20 zone in north Wales. As the letter arrived only 5 days after the offence, I suspect that this may be a new automatic notification without human intervention. The letter says I can 'view the collision and speed history' (which this limit is 'intended to improve') on the gosafe.org website - so I did that, and there is no history yet, confirming my suspicion. Can the recently reshuffled Welsh govt have triggered this ?

Anyway, as a first offence it is only a Final Warning letter. Earlier messages in this thread say that 25 is tolerated, but perhaps that has changed too ? I have been driving this road every few weeks for about 20 years.

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Thu 18 Apr 2024 16:39

20 MPH - movilogo

detected by a fixed camera at 26 in a new 20 zone

If letter claims you did 26 in a 20 zone, considering speedo overreads, I am somewhat inclined to say you were doing 30 MPH.

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Thu 18 Apr 2024 17:16

20 MPH - Andrew-T

detected by a fixed camera at 26 in a new 20 zone

If letter claims you did 26 in a 20 zone, considering speedo overreads, I am somewhat inclined to say you were doing 30 MPH.

I don't see how you work that out, as cameras are intended to report true speeds ? Unless you mean that my speedo was showing 30 ? Not the same thing. Anyhow it seems to me that the alleged Welsh leniency may have ended. 20 + 10% + 2 comes to 24, so my error was pretty small.

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Thu 18 Apr 2024 17:46

20 MPH - movilogo

Yes, I meant speed showing 30 MPH

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Wed 17 Jul 2024 11:46

20 MPH - Andrew-T

.... living in Wales I can confirm it's extremely unpopular, poorly implemented , confusing and a ball ache, as one can often get stuck behind a mimser doing 10 to 15 mph just in case! Overtaking has become more common in 20mph areas!

After more than 60 years driving I can report having received my first speeding 'ticket' - detected by a fixed camera at 26 in a new 20 zone in north Wales.

Today's Times reports that many/most of the Welsh 20 limits will begin to revert to 30 from September onwards.

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Sun 21 Jul 2024 20:32

20 MPH - Smileyman

I follow "20's Plenty for Us" on X (Twitter) the suggestion is not so many will revert back to 30mph, I hope you are right and they are wrong as their campaign is getting a much deserved beating.

Next London needs the same treatment, 20mph is spreading like a bad plague there.

I will add there is a place for 20mph limits, but this limit is being abusively introduced on far too many roads whilst there is no reasonable need to do so.

Edited by Smileyman on 21/07/2024 at 20:34

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Sat 13 Jan 2024 08:34

20 MPH - FoxyJukebox

Traffic on the M25 frequently flows at 20mph-even lower sometimes

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Fri 19 Apr 2024 12:28

20 MPH - Sofa Spud

The fact that there are speed cameras and prosecutions in relation to 20 mph limits should at least dispel the old myth that "the 20 mph limit has no legal status and so is unenforcable". It is enforcable!

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Fri 19 Apr 2024 22:08

20 MPH - movilogo

20mph Wales: Some roads to revert to 30mph after backlash

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-68859568

If people are upset with 20 and 30 deemed too fast, why don't we settle on 25 MPH?

25 MPH/40 kmph is normal in USA & Canada and some parts of Europe too in towns.

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Fri 19 Apr 2024 23:12

20 MPH - Andrew-T

If people are upset with 20 and 30 deemed too fast, why don't we settle on 25 MPH?

25 MPH/40 kmph is normal in USA & Canada and some parts of Europe too in towns.

I don't know the rules, but the UK convention on public roads seems to be multiples of 10, tho there are lower limits of 5 or 15 in congested places ?

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Sat 20 Apr 2024 07:39

20 MPH - RT

If people are upset with 20 and 30 deemed too fast, why don't we settle on 25 MPH?

25 MPH/40 kmph is normal in USA & Canada and some parts of Europe too in towns.

I don't know the rules, but the UK convention on public roads seems to be multiples of 10, tho there are lower limits of 5 or 15 in congested places ?

It's a long-standing convention in the UK that public road speed limits will always be multiples of 10 and private road speed limits should end with 5.

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