I’ve had multiple iPhones over the years (all Chinese made) and the only failures have only been caused by an excess of gravity over friction (I’ve dropped and broken them).

As apple make phones to break down they obviously were broken by you before they got the chance....

as for the old metal timing chains it was rare to replace them only on the odd Volvo and then the sprockets were more worn than the chains, on the Volvos I did

The components may originate in China, but surely they’re manufactured to specifications laid down by the European/Japanese/American manufacturer? I’ve had multiple iPhones over the years (all Chinese made) and the only failures have only been caused by an excess of gravity over friction (I’ve dropped and broken them).

Perhaps, but I suspect there's a lot of turning on blind eyes going on as regards the quality of third-party sub-components and materials.

This is happening all over the world, often because manufacturers - of all goods, not just cars - are (often desperately) trying to compete with emerging markets than are far lower on the labour costs and often who cut corners on the quality and safety front as well.

In my old industry of Building Services (Construction), I noticed a steady downward trend in the quality of sub-components from the mid 2000s onwards, with cheap and nasty PCBs, plastics and even metal casings being increasing used, even on 'high quality' equipment.

I've often said here that many car manufacturers have reduced R&D - especially component testing before release to market, and particularly how they interract with other systems / components on the vehicles (especially software), but the same is true everywhere.

Never mind the quality - feel the width and the use-once, cannot / too expensive-to--repair throwaway culture is the order of the day. Ironic, given all the furor about pollution / waste, energy use, etc.

Speaking to a retired mechanic with 50 years in the trade and working on all makes he attributes the high rate of failures in timing chains and other components to the increasing use of Chinese sourced metal .

Mechanics have been saying this sort of thing since the first Japanese cars and motorbikes started coming to the UK.

"Oh, the engines are made of monkey metal, not like a proper car / bike."

Timing chain tensioner issues in BMWs have been largely because of the company's stupid decision to make the guide / slipper blades of plastic. I mean, who could have possibly imagined that a plastic component in a very hot environment with a steel chain running at high speed over it might eventually get brittle and break?

And Fiats rust because of Shonky Soviet Steel they innocently traded for the Lada base design.

Not poor Fiats fault at all.

I mean, what, you expect quality control?

Re plastic chain guides, I had one fail in a Ford Sierra DOHC, which eventually, in combo with a rather incompetent repair attempt from me, killed the car.

I was (naively) a bit shocked that they would use what looked like a bit of bakelite in such a role, but it turns out "they all do that, Sir"

European manufacturers have had trouble with timing chains for as long as I can remember. Vauxhall, BMW, Peugeot/PSA, Fiat and VAG have all failed to design and build robust chain driven engines. Yet the Japanese, even those built in the UK and Europe are rarely any trouble - I exclude Nissan which are really just rebadged Renaults. It could be cheap Chinese components but this problem has existed for many a year.

Some said it was because the chain wasn`t heat treated during manufacture so wore faster as the oil got older, can`t say I disbelieve it judging by what I have seen over the years, what with oil changes being missed as many still do.

Rubbish designs are nothing new, some I remember way in the past:-

• Ford Essex V6 failing fibre cam shaft fibre wheel and oil pump hex drive shaft that rounded off.
• Ford Pinto with horrible cam lubrication system that failed and also an oil pump hex drive shaft that rounded off.
• Early Vauxhall ohc - cam shaft failure/knock.
• Austin/Morris A series - awful cam chain rattle (fortunately got noisy but didn't snap).Some had SU electric fuel pump that failed frequently.
• Datsun 120y - steering box mounts rusted away with predictable results.
• Morris Minor, nice car but front trunnions wore (poor maintenance) where they pulled out and a front wheel collapsed - fortunately usually at low speed on a roundabout.
• vw pierburg carburetor.
• Ford VV carburetor - oh dear.
• Oh and rust - almost everything did!

Some good designs though:-

• Toyota Starlet - bullet proof.
• Datsun 100a - mechanically bullet proof but if a clutch ever failed - plate on bellhousing & inner wing - 30 minute job without removing gearbox.

Edited by Big John on 11/04/2023 at 22:25

European manufacturers have had trouble with timing chains for as long as I can remember. Vauxhall, BMW, Peugeot/PSA, Fiat and VAG have all failed to design and build robust chain driven engines.......

Over 20yrs, VAG have produced around 100,000 W12 engines, many of which have clocked up high mileages. In stark contrast to some other manufacturers' 12 cylinder offerings, engine and/or timing chain failure in this exceptionally robust lightweight lump is virtually unknown.

BL's Triumph slant 4 had a reliable chain, too.

Edited by John F on 12/04/2023 at 11:03

Back in the 1980s I used to read a custom car magazine. I can recall someone rebuilding an engine for either a Capri or a Scimitar or something similar. That engine had plastic gears driving the camshafts and they replaced them with steel/alloy. It struck me that that was a good idea and I've often wondered if that would be a viable solution to cambelt/cam chain issues?

>>Japanese manufacturers don't always get it right

However, Honda, Toyota & Lexus have in the past, had problems, but then stood by their mistakes and fixed the problems in most cases.

Lexus/Toyota diesel in Avensis & IS - oil burning - reworked / replacement engines even out with the 3 year warranty assuming they had been serviced.

Honda auto box issues - replaced - some out with 3 year warranty

The not so good stories

VW - ABS brakes on Golfs etc, DSG gearbox failures, Golf plastic impellers failures on water pump,

Ford - 3 cylinder engines failing due to bad design, Ford Powershift failings put down to poor driving by owners. Ford eventually owned up and repaid engine repair/replacement costs

Subaru diesel engine failures at low mileages -a few years back and they walked away.

Nissan autobox failures just out of warranty - owners left with huge bills

Edited by daveyK_UK on 16/04/2023 at 05:16

The obsession this forum has with DSG is nearly as bad as the one with DPFs.

VAG DSG gearboxes are generally fine and I've come across enough of them at silly miles (200k) working absolutely fine to not be scared of them.

Sure some of the early ones and early iterations of the 7 speed fitted to smaller engines were prone to issues but these cars have either now been fixed or scrapped.

Someone may have thrashed it but you know what - drive a regular manual badly and you'll eventually wreck that or the clutch and they're not cheap either. A lot of the 6 speed autos from ten years ago are arguably less reliable than DSG.

I am less of a fan of Ford's Powershift but on a VAG DSG just check the DMF isn't rattling, it doesn't snatch when moving off, service it when you buy it and it'll probably still be going fine when the car is scrapped due to something else

You can mostly drive a DSG car like an auto. I can't think of much you can or should specifically do different.

The only concession I might make to a DSG is I'm more likely to shift it into neutral if stopped at traffic lights for a while etc as technically the clutch is at the point of engagement. So, in theory, you might be wearing the clutch plate and/or DMF more than otherwise. I must admit I tend to do the same with normal autos even though it is probably entirely unnecessary. It just feels "right".

I enjoy driving DSG, there is something quite addictive about the almost race style gear change.

I'd fully agree that If they do go wrong they can be costly but then rebuilding an 8 or 9 speed auto isn't exactly a bargain either! :)

I quite like DCTs. As I've said, probably in this thread, I didn't like the DSG in my golf, but do like it in my Karoq. I don't know if they're different boxes or it was just the auto hold thing. I had one in a Mini too, and really liked it.

To drive, they're a bit jerkier than TCs at low speeds and a bit smoother on the move. They certainly seem more responsive and more efficient. The problem with them is just that they're a bit fragile.

It's horses for courses I guess; there's more to choosing a car than just running costs.