there is nothing wrong with a DSG.
Maybe if the car has been driven sensibly by its previous owner/s, i.e, no boy racers or Jeremy Clarkson wannabe's. Feel free to explain how a potential buyer would determine this on a car at least 5 years old.
The Audi 1.4 DSG which I had recently would do over 50mpg on a run a easily keep up with anything in the legal limit
Are there any cars sold in the UK which wouldn't keep up with anything else doing the legal limit?. The 68bhp 1.0 Daihatsu Sirion we had from 2008-2011 certainly would.......
|
|
"""there is nothing wrong with a DSG.
Maybe if the car has been driven sensibly by its previous owner/s, i.e, no boy racers or Jeremy Clarkson wannabe's. Feel free to explain how a potential buyer would determine this on a car at least 5 years old. """
How would you determine this on any car you bought as regards the mechanicals on the day you purchased it. Faults develop over time on any car. A manual gearbox could fail the next week or a clutch fail. Equally on any car other running parts. Personally I would rather trust an auto on a second hand car than a clutch.
|
"""there is nothing wrong with a DSG.
Maybe if the car has been driven sensibly by its previous owner/s, i.e, no boy racers or Jeremy Clarkson wannabe's. Feel free to explain how a potential buyer would determine this on a car at least 5 years old. """
How would you determine this on any car you bought as regards the mechanicals on the day you purchased it. Faults develop over time on any car. A manual gearbox could fail the next week or a clutch fail. Equally on any car other running parts. Personally I would rather trust an auto on a second hand car than a clutch.
The problem is that many car owners mistakenly believe that 'dual clutch' gearboxes work in much the same way as any auto, especially TC autos - which they patently don't.
As such, many people will creep along in slow-moving traffic, whether on level roads, or worse still, up hills, essentially riding the clutch as they do. This will wear out the clutch pack far more quickly than a manual because the (ignorant) driver won't realise they're doing it.
Of course, someone who's either clued up about such gearboxes and/or buys a car with one where the vast majority of their driving is on faster-moving roads, the gearbox will be at least as reliable as a manual, as long as the fluid can be changed (now that the manufacturers relaise 'sealed for life' ones are not a good idea) and/or they don't use the car for racing on the road.
Beacsue they are computer-controlled, the likelihood is that the wear will be hidden until much nearer the failure point, and thus someone selling a car with a worn (manual) clutch is less likely IMHO to get away with it compared to a DCT type.
The problem is for secondhand buyer that unless you personally know all the previous owners and how they drove the car, you have no idea how worn that DCT box is. With a manual gearbox, it's far easier with the test drive to know and thus reject it or insist on a clutch change.
It's very different with a TC auto box, as that does give signs of wear you can either discern during a test drive and/or via an inspection.
|
|
|
|
|
I have a 2018 1.4 Golf. It’s economy is outstanding. Yesterday I did 120 motorway miles at 62mpg (albeit on the computer). Its performance is not super-fast but brisk enough for our congested roads,. No evidence of rust but it’s not yet four years old so the jury is out. Prices however are stupidly high even in such an current expensive market.
My car immediately before was the much recommended 1.8 petrol Civic. I liked it but it had two lots of brake pads and one set of discs up to 72k. These were expensive. It’s not nearly as light to drive as the Golf but the interior space is exceptional. It’s also cheap to service, brakes aside. Economy was mid-40s to 50 on a motorway run. What made me trade it in was a sudden increase in oil consumption, a common issue on 2012 cars.
Finally as the Mazda 3 has been mentioned I can comment on the older model. We have a 2012 1.6 petrol as our second car. It’s very nice to drive but well down on overtaking power compared to the Golf and Civic. It’s also had surface rust around the seams in the engine bay and on the rear subframe. The interior is a step down from the other two. It’s Achilles heel is economy. On a run the best it will do is low to mid 40s.
in summary, if you can afford the daft prices, I’d say the Golf is best all rounder. If you want an older or cheaper car then consider one of the Japanese options. The Civic for it’s space, economy and interior quality. Or the Mazda for simple, but not fast or economical, driving pleasure.
|
|
Go for a long test drive. I had a Golf 7.5 and didn't get on with the seats at all.
|
|
Re the DSGs... My son had a 2018 Skoda with DSG. Company car from new. Occasionally the DSG would play up, jolting and hesitating. Maybe once or twice in a 50 mile trip. He wasn't too bothered because it was not his car. Went back to the dealers three times but no fault found. It was returned last year with quite low miles (about 40k).
My wife's nephew leased an Audi A1. At about 15k miles the DSG started playing up. Juddering and vibrating. Audi had it several times but couldn't resolve the problem. In the end the lease company substituted a different car.
|
|
|
Go for a long test drive. I had a Golf 7.5 and didn't get on with the seats at all.
Good call. Seats are an individual thing but a colleague of mine thought the seats in his Golf were the worst feature. Saying that I have a related 2014 Skoda Superb and I rather like the seats - amazing long distance cruiser.
|
A manual gearbox could fail the next week or a clutch fail. Equally on any car other running parts. Personally I would rather trust an auto on a second hand car than a clutch.
A manual gearbox doesn't 'just fail'. It builds up to that point and impending failure will be very obvious on a test drive.
But replacing the clutch on a manual box will be much cheaper than replacing the clutch pack on a DSG. And while the manual box on the Golf is not prone to failures, should the worst happen, it would also be much cheaper to replace than a DSG.
Edited by badbusdriver on 04/06/2022 at 11:50
|
|
"""""As such, many people will creep along in slow-moving traffic, whether on level roads, or worse still, up hills, essentially riding the clutch as they do. This will wear out the clutch pack far more quickly than a manual because the (ignorant) driver won't realise they're doing it."""
Well I have read some rubbish on here but this about beats them all. How do you think you are supposed to queue in traffic and do you not think that the manufacturer has tested these boxes over thousand and thousand of miles. Even BMW have started using this type of box as have some of the makers in the far east
|
|
I suppose you're supposed to drive in traffic by stopping and starting, rather than crawling. When I had a Golf DSG, one of its best points was how slowly it would crawl if I took my feet off the pedals, so I certainly drove it like that. Conversely, one of its worst points was its inability to start moving with subtlety than a lawnmower. I'd say the worst point, though, was probably the 'emergency braking' suddenly stopping the car for no reason on occasion.
As for testing it for thousands of miles, don't forget were talking VW here. They will test it up to 60,000 for the warranty and couldn't care less if it subsequently explodes.
|
|
|
|
A DSG is not an automatic gearbox as such. Its two manual gearboxes and two clutches combined into a single unit. Selection of gears and operation of the clutches is done via a Heath Robinson box of tricks (electrohydraulic 'mechatronic unit') bolted to the side of the gearbox. This thing has its own electric pump for the fluid, solenoid valves and dozens of little valves. You don't have to be a genius to figure out that this thing is going to be a heck of a lot less reliable than a simple manual box and also a lot more difficult and expensive to fix...
|
|
|
"""""As such, many people will creep along in slow-moving traffic, whether on level roads, or worse still, up hills, essentially riding the clutch as they do. This will wear out the clutch pack far more quickly than a manual because the (ignorant) driver won't realise they're doing it."""
Well I have read some rubbish on here but this about beats them all. How do you think you are supposed to queue in traffic and do you not think that the manufacturer has tested these boxes over thousand and thousand of miles. Even BMW have started using this type of box as have some of the makers in the far east
Your opinion, sammy, and certainly very much the minority on this. As Rerepo says, a DCT is NOT an automatic gearbox in the same way a TC auto is - it is an automated manual with two clutches instead of one, which means it will slip the clutch when creeping along at lowish speed to avoid stalling or lurching forward. The computer controlled system just compensates so you don't notice it's happening.
I'm not telling anyone that you shouldn't drive like that in heavy traffic, but that doing so using a DCT gearbox will wear it out far quicker than a car with a TC auto or a decent CVT, both of which are, design-wise, far better suited to those conditions. DCTs are better suited to driving at reasonable speeds, not under 10 mph.
Yes, makes like BMW and Hyundai/KIA produce / use more reliable DCT units than the likes of VAG, Ford and Renault/Nissan have done, and even with the VAG DSGs, 'wet' dual clutch units tended to be more reliable than 'dry' ones, as did those that were significantly oversized for the maximum power they could handle.
|
"""""As such, many people will creep along in slow-moving traffic, whether on level roads, or worse still, up hills, essentially riding the clutch as they do. This will wear out the clutch pack far more quickly than a manual because the (ignorant) driver won't realise they're doing it."""
Well I have read some rubbish on here but this about beats them all. How do you think you are supposed to queue in traffic and do you not think that the manufacturer has tested these boxes over thousand and thousand of miles. Even BMW have started using this type of box as have some of the makers in the far east
Your opinion, sammy, and certainly very much the minority on this. As Rerepo says, a DCT is NOT an automatic gearbox in the same way a TC auto is - it is an automated manual with two clutches instead of one, which means it will slip the clutch when creeping along at lowish speed to avoid stalling or lurching forward. The computer controlled system just compensates so you don't notice it's happening.
I'm not telling anyone that you shouldn't drive like that in heavy traffic, but that doing so using a DCT gearbox will wear it out far quicker than a car with a TC auto or a decent CVT, both of which are, design-wise, far better suited to those conditions. DCTs are better suited to driving at reasonable speeds, not under 10 mph.
Yes, makes like BMW and Hyundai/KIA produce / use more reliable DCT units than the likes of VAG, Ford and Renault/Nissan have done, and even with the VAG DSGs, 'wet' dual clutch units tended to be more reliable than 'dry' ones, as did those that were significantly oversized for the maximum power they could handle.
Who cares what sort of Auto the DSG is. It works as good as a torque converter and in many ways is a lot smother than some and is better on fuel economy. Do you think the DSG box will have premature wear if driven slow well there are stacks of examples on Autotrader of mileages in excess of 100k which in todays traffic must have done their fair share of queuing.
What proof do you have that the BMW and other DSGs is any better than the VW. I have the dual clutch in our MINI and it is not noticeable any better than the unit we had in the A1 and Golfs.
The Audi/VW group use a version of the DSG box in its performance cars with BHP well in excess of 300 so the unit must be well capable of handling the power.
In the days of HJ himself this site was almost famous for its hate of DSG it seems the memory lives on!!
|
"""""As such, many people will creep along in slow-moving traffic, whether on level roads, or worse still, up hills, essentially riding the clutch as they do. This will wear out the clutch pack far more quickly than a manual because the (ignorant) driver won't realise they're doing it."""
Well I have read some rubbish on here but this about beats them all. How do you think you are supposed to queue in traffic and do you not think that the manufacturer has tested these boxes over thousand and thousand of miles. Even BMW have started using this type of box as have some of the makers in the far east
Your opinion, sammy, and certainly very much the minority on this. As Rerepo says, a DCT is NOT an automatic gearbox in the same way a TC auto is - it is an automated manual with two clutches instead of one, which means it will slip the clutch when creeping along at lowish speed to avoid stalling or lurching forward. The computer controlled system just compensates so you don't notice it's happening.
I'm not telling anyone that you shouldn't drive like that in heavy traffic, but that doing so using a DCT gearbox will wear it out far quicker than a car with a TC auto or a decent CVT, both of which are, design-wise, far better suited to those conditions. DCTs are better suited to driving at reasonable speeds, not under 10 mph.
Yes, makes like BMW and Hyundai/KIA produce / use more reliable DCT units than the likes of VAG, Ford and Renault/Nissan have done, and even with the VAG DSGs, 'wet' dual clutch units tended to be more reliable than 'dry' ones, as did those that were significantly oversized for the maximum power they could handle.
Who cares what sort of Auto the DSG is. It works as good as a torque converter and in many ways is a lot smother than some and is better on fuel economy. Do you think the DSG box will have premature wear if driven slow well there are stacks of examples on Autotrader of mileages in excess of 100k which in todays traffic must have done their fair share of queuing.
What proof do you have that the BMW and other DSGs is any better than the VW. I have the dual clutch in our MINI and it is not noticeable any better than the unit we had in the A1 and Golfs.
The Audi/VW group use a version of the DSG box in its performance cars with BHP well in excess of 300 so the unit must be well capable of handling the power.
In the days of HJ himself this site was almost famous for its hate of DSG it seems the memory lives on!!
The DSG is better on fuel economy than a standard auto and less good than a CVT, but it is not smoother. Remember its just a doubled manual gearbox with a box of tricks that operates the clutch for you. A lot of manufacturers went to DCTs because they could build the boxes on their own manual transmission lines without having to buy in expensive autoboxes from the likes of Jatco or Aisin.
The trend now is back to conventional autos for larger cars and CVT for smaller cars. DCT/DSG is really too heavy in a small car.
Obviously the clutch life of the DSG will depend on how its used. Some fail at as little as 60k km. Other driven on the open road all the time will do 200k km.
The VW/Audi DSG has a design fault where the clutch accumulator screws into the mechatronic valve body. The alloy of the threaded portion on the valve body is too thin and over time it fractures. The accumulator pops off (denting the tin cover) and you have no drive in any gear. VW will quote you £4000 for a new mechatronic unit. However its possible to rebuild the old one with a third party kit for £300 plus about a day's labour. The aftermarket kits are stronger. This fault is quite common and occurs from 40k miles upward - mostly on cars driven in traffic.
Edited by Rerepo on 05/06/2022 at 18:06
|
"""""As such, many people will creep along in slow-moving traffic, whether on level roads, or worse still, up hills, essentially riding the clutch as they do. This will wear out the clutch pack far more quickly than a manual because the (ignorant) driver won't realise they're doing it."""
Well I have read some rubbish on here but this about beats them all. How do you think you are supposed to queue in traffic and do you not think that the manufacturer has tested these boxes over thousand and thousand of miles. Even BMW have started using this type of box as have some of the makers in the far east
Your opinion, sammy, and certainly very much the minority on this. As Rerepo says, a DCT is NOT an automatic gearbox in the same way a TC auto is - it is an automated manual with two clutches instead of one, which means it will slip the clutch when creeping along at lowish speed to avoid stalling or lurching forward. The computer controlled system just compensates so you don't notice it's happening.
I'm not telling anyone that you shouldn't drive like that in heavy traffic, but that doing so using a DCT gearbox will wear it out far quicker than a car with a TC auto or a decent CVT, both of which are, design-wise, far better suited to those conditions. DCTs are better suited to driving at reasonable speeds, not under 10 mph.
Yes, makes like BMW and Hyundai/KIA produce / use more reliable DCT units than the likes of VAG, Ford and Renault/Nissan have done, and even with the VAG DSGs, 'wet' dual clutch units tended to be more reliable than 'dry' ones, as did those that were significantly oversized for the maximum power they could handle.
Who cares what sort of Auto the DSG is. It works as good as a torque converter and in many ways is a lot smother than some and is better on fuel economy. Do you think the DSG box will have premature wear if driven slow well there are stacks of examples on Autotrader of mileages in excess of 100k which in todays traffic must have done their fair share of queuing.
I'm sure sellers are absolutely willing to say they already had their clutch packs replaced (whether via warranty or [likely] not) at least once or knew whether previous owners had done as well.
As I've said many times before, a buyer will likely NOT KNOW what type of driving pattern any of the previous owners may have done.
What proof do you have that the BMW and other DSGs is any better than the VW. I have the dual clutch in our MINI and it is not noticeable any better than the unit we had in the A1 and Golfs.
Because they attract far less negative reviews and complaints that end up on websites like this (and others) and in the media generally. Honest John himself regularly documented them over the years - and ones related to Ford's 'Powershift' equivalent DCT, but far less than for other makes like BMW or Hyundai/KIA, even taking into account that VAG started using them earlier.
To me, I would say that the Ford units were even less reliable than the VAG ones.
The Audi/VW group use a version of the DSG box in its performance cars with BHP well in excess of 300 so the unit must be well capable of handling the power.
Hence why I made the comment about this - if I recall, they only changed that about 3 years ago when the previous 'small power' DSG had a lower top rating. Doing this and changing the design to make them not 'sealed for life' so the oil can be changed has certainly improved reliability.
That being said, the design of such gearboxes generally is still not conducive to reliability if predominantly used for runs in heavy, slow-moving traffic and/or up steep hills.
In the days of HJ himself this site was almost famous for its hate of DSG it seems the memory lives on!!
Whereas you seem to think they can walk on water. HJ was only relaying Telegraph and this website's readership's own accounts of ownership problems across many makes and models of car, not just VAGs. I've seen complaints from VAG owners on other websites over the years as well, as I have with the Ford units.
One of the problems both makes had was that they appeared (to me at least) to be effectively 'washing their hands' of such complaints whilst simultanbeously flogging new and used cars with DCT gearboxes to punters whose driving pattern was not suited to them, leading to such failures.
That Ford went back to TC gearboxes as a result showed they weren't prepared to put up with the loss in reputation. VAG appeared to be either more resilient or didn't care, given the generaly reputational damage done by this issue, Dieselgate, etc over the last decade.
One wonders what VAG would have to do to stop you eulogising over them...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Go for a long test drive. I had a Golf 7.5 and didn't get on with the seats at all.
|
Even BMW have started using this type of box
BMW have been using DCT's for years but are actually going back to t/c auto's now because the available control and shift times on modern t/c auto's are as good as a DCT but with better smoothness and reliability.
|
|
|
As such, many people will creep along in slow-moving traffic, whether on level roads, or worse still, up hills, essentially riding the clutch as they do. This will wear out the clutch pack far more quickly than a manual because the (ignorant) driver won't realise they're doing it.
Been out in the Octavia this morning which has a DSG. First thing I looked for after reading the post was the clutch pedal to make sure I was not accidentally riding it, there isn't one. So how on earth would I ride the clutch if I drive slowly in traffic?
Unlike a TC auto and even a Toyota CVT where the revs flare when you press the throttle before the road speed catches up the the Octavia the revs and road speed rise together. When you slip/ride the clutch in a manual the revs rise fast just like they do in a conventional auto, the Octavia DSG does not do this at all.
Presume the poster has never actually driven one.
|
Been out in the Octavia this morning which has a DSG. First thing I looked for after reading the post was the clutch pedal to make sure I was not accidentally riding it, there isn't one. So how on earth would I ride the clutch if I drive slowly in traffic?
The mechatronic unit on the gearbox rides the clutch for you.....
|
Unlike a TC auto and even a Toyota CVT where the revs flare when you press the throttle before the road speed catches up the the Octavia the revs and road speed rise together. When you slip/ride the clutch in a manual the revs rise fast just like they do in a conventional auto, the Octavia DSG does not do this at all.
That is because the electric motor in your car is either accelerating you by itself or assisting depending on how much charge there is and how far down you press the throttle.
|
|
Thanks for all the answers,
I did fear that the newer versions wouldn't be as good as the old one
So i'm still not sure which one i would choose, Honda Civic are well known for good engines but the car looks like a spaceship, i quite like the Mazda 3, i've looked at some and i saw a 2015 2.0L petrol version, are they the best in the range? My only worry is that i owned a Mazda before but was a 2.2D Auto which i learned they aren't good, but heard Petrol versions of Mazda are one of the most reliable is this correct? They seem to be at a decent price too
|
|
The Civic’s more extreme stying didn’t come in until 2017. 2017 onwards cars also have completely different, turbo petrol engines from previous Civics. If you are considering these then it’s worth looking up the issues these have with timing belts. The older model 1.8 petrol (so called Mk9) is a better bet for reliability from 2013 onwards when oil issues were resolved.
The Mk 9 petrol is not a turbo ( neither is the Mazda). It needs more revs than the 1.4 Golf to make progress. You might want to test drive one to see if it suits you. I liked the way my Civic picked up speed but other will prefer the quieter, smoother delivery of the Golf.
|
|
The smaller engine turbos that are in modern designs are much better than the old style larger engines that you have to rev the guts out to get anywhere and they are a lot more economical I would vote for a Golf
|
|
Thanks for all the answers,
I did fear that the newer versions wouldn't be as good as the old one
So i'm still not sure which one i would choose, Honda Civic are well known for good engines but the car looks like a spaceship, i quite like the Mazda 3, i've looked at some and i saw a 2015 2.0L petrol version, are they the best in the range? My only worry is that i owned a Mazda before but was a 2.2D Auto which i learned they aren't good, but heard Petrol versions of Mazda are one of the most reliable is this correct? They seem to be at a decent price too
Yes they are reliable, if not exactly spectacular in terms of performance. When I test drove a gen-3 car (the 2L petrol type you mentioned) to replace my gen-1 1.6 petrol manual, I found it to be more spritely, but not that much more. It's fine for everyday driving.
The newer 2L auto will be about the same performance and mpg as my 1.6 petrol manual, which is fine. I personally was looking for something with a bit more oomph.
Had the VAG equivalents had a TC auto box instead of DSG dual clutch one, I might've plumped for a Golf, Octavia or Leon in 1.4 TSI 150PS form (in the end I chose to keep my existing car) as they were indeed more spritely - even the 122PS versions were, despite them having essentially the same power as the Mazda3.
The Mazda3, especially in SE-L (Nav) form is perhaps the best value for money given its decent non-engine spec. The Leon is a great looking car with similar spec in the FR version, but that comes shod on 17in or (later) 18in rims which may be too firm riding. The Mazda SE-L is normally shod on 16in rims and 60 profile tyres, but with little handling penalty. Just make sure you can get one with a space saver spare fitted (not cheap if you buy a kit from Mazda - £395 last time I checked, were cheaper with VAGs).
The Octavia, if I recall, may come on 16 or 17in rims depending on the (mid) spec and year of manufacture - it's not so good handling as the others as its a bigger car, but its not that bad in that regard and of course the extra space (especially in the back/boot) can be VERY useful.
I personally would avoid dual clutch gearboxes when buying second hand for the reasons I've previously stated ealier in the thread.
Really up to you what you like (and anyone else who will be driving the car), practical needs, local availability and where you'll be getting it maintained. Unfortunately dealership quality on the post sales side can vary quite a bit outside of the likes of Toyota, Honda and Subaru and that may make a big difference to what you buy, though if you have a decent local indie you trust, that might be fine, given the car is likely to well out of warranty for most if not all of those you look at.
In the current market, you may need to be patient and possibly consider looking (to buy anyway) slightly further afield than normal to get what you want - though not too far away!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
