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First off, i like your forum name a lot, really enjoyed the TV film and the portrayal of Silas by Ben Kingsley, they don't make films like that any more, sadly.
Why do cars need 6+ gears?, mainly because of certain turbocharged Diesels (and to a lesser extent some multi valve NA petrol engines) that have about 1500rpm rev range of useful torque, given many Diesel didn't provide any usable torque until some 2000 rpm was reached and ran out of steam at 3500 rpm tops.
Cruising speeds and fuel economy are now the thing, back in 4 speed Escorts chances are the engine would be screaming along at 4000rpm at an indicated 70mph, where todays well sorted engines can cruise nicely at 1600/1800 rpm at that speed.
The move to automatic gearboxes has been hampered by so many makes fitting barely fit for purpose automated manuals and dual clutch boxes, not only poor things at close work and in heavy traffic but which lack durability...unlike in lorries where they are more or less bomb proof over 1 million miles and more.
Dare say manual gearboxes will be phased out in time, apart from some specialist makers, everything else is being dumbed down in the mad dash to make electric and then driverless cars the future...you'd be hard pressed to buy a new full weight artic with a manual gearbox now, think it's only Daf that still offer them in volume, most of the other akes it's not even an option now on fleet lorries.
Don't get me wrong i like proper auto boxes, those fitted with torque converters, and our small fleet of cars are all so equipped.
Edited by gordonbennet on 26/05/2019 at 20:48
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Historically auto boxes wasted power and gave poor mpg vs their manual equivalents. Hence autos tended to be restricted to larger engined cars where money for petrol was less of an issue and power more adequate.
The popularity of manuals now really rests on an illusion of control and driving pleasure. Autos are also generally premium priced when new - mainly manufacturers exploiting punters.
I currently drive a manual. When I change an auto will be high priority. as changing gears manually is just hassle with high traffic volumes. As far as I am concerned technology has moved on since the early 20th century, and mid 20th century when synchromesh became the norm.
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People like manuals. I would choose a manual box with most cars other than large execs and SUV’s. Car firms have in the past tried to force autos on is only to be punished with poor sales. With auto only, sports cars and hot hatches falling flat on their faces.
SOME people like manuals. But other than small engined cars, the bias is in favour of auto, and getting more so.
Look at all cars for sale (on Autotrader) from 2010> There are approx 63% more manuals than auto. Change the criteria to cars with engines of 1.4 and larger and the figures are just over 14% more manuals than auto. Change that to engines of 1.6 and larger and the tide very much swings in the other direction with 16% more auto than manual.
Try the same using cars from 2015>, for all cars there are approx 52% more manual than auto. For 1.4 and larger, they are more or less equal with approx 1% more auto than manual. For 1.6 and larger, there are approx 48% more auto.
Move that to cars from 2018> and out of the total, there are only 15% more manual than auto. But for 1.4 and larger there is a huge 56% more auto than manual. For 1.6 and larger, there are approx 174% (!) more auto than manual.
Now these figures are by no means scientific, as (a) the figures are approximate, and (b) they do not take into account the cars where the gearbox type is 'unlisted' (the amount of those were fairly small). Nevertheless it shows clearly that manual cars are very much on the wane.
I'd also dispute the notion of auto only sports cars and hot hatches 'falling flat on their faces'. The Mercedes AMG A45 is only available as an auto, the Audi RS3 is only available as an auto, the Golf R is available with manual, but far more are sold with the DSG. Porsche sell far more 911 with the DCT gearbox than the manual, it being kept on mainly to appease a few hard core purists. The new Alpine A110, which has been getting rave reviews left right and centre and being lauded as pretty much the best drivers car you can buy, for any money, is DCT only.
And of course, as electric cars become more common and useable, that will only hasten the demise of the manual gearbox.
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Something I have always wondered regarding the "illusion of control and driving pleasure" ascribed to manual gearbox cars... How well do automatics, especially CVTs, cope with sinuous mountain roads? I came close to choosing a hybrid CVT when I bought my current car, but I was put off by two things. One was the thought of navigating some of the mountainous countryside near home with the choice of gear being left to my car's electronics rather than me with my 30+ years of driving experience. The other factor was having to fork out another €2000!
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I’d be very interested to see you or anyone for that matter, operate a manual CVT, whereby you move a lever to change the belt position yourself, if such a thing is ever invented :-)
I think 6 speeds is the sweet spot for manual and autos. In newer autos, put your foot down at 30 and it drops about 3 gears before you move off, i find this really frustrating, much prefer my less efficient, slower but somehow more controllable (via throttle modulation) 4 speed auto with lock up overdrive serving as a kind of 5th gear. Autos every time for me, even in very small cars like the mk2 clio.
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Something I have always wondered regarding the "illusion of control and driving pleasure" ascribed to manual gearbox cars... How well do automatics, especially CVTs, cope with sinuous mountain roads? I came close to choosing a hybrid CVT when I bought my current car, but I was put off by two things. One was the thought of navigating some of the mountainous countryside near home with the choice of gear being left to my car's electronics rather than me with my 30+ years of driving experience. The other factor was having to fork out another €2000!
I don't know about all of them, but certainly most current CVT's are of the 'stepped' variety. This, in the case of our Jazz, has 7 electronic steps to mimic a DCT. The control of these (artificial) ratios can be done manually should you wish, using the paddles behind the steering wheel. It does work very well if you can be bothered (i can't), so no reason for it to cope with twisty roads any worse than the manual version. There is also a sport mode, which does work as a fully auto as well as taking manual control, and generally keeps the engine spinning higher on a lower ratio, also, in theory, responds quicker to throttle inputs. I say in theory, because after having the car for two years now, i find drive suits my needs best, even if i am in a hurry. The only time i use manual control is on very slippy or icy roads to help coming to a stop, especially downhill. As for sport mode, i will use that at certain points if i'm in a hurry, such as a series of bends, but i also use it at times going through 30mph areas, especially if going downhill, as 'drive' will have a tendncy to let the speed creep up through virtually no engine braking.
As for your having to fork out an extra 2k, that wasn't because it was an auto, that was because it was a hybrid auto.
I’d be very interested to see you or anyone for that matter, operate a manual CVT, whereby you move a lever to change the belt position yourself, if such a thing is ever invented :-)
What on earth for?
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I was replying to the earlier post of not trusting the CVT to choose the correct gear compared to his 30+ years of experience.
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“I’d also dispute the notion of auto only sports cars and hot hatches 'falling flat on their faces'. The Mercedes AMG A45 is only available as an auto, the Audi RS3 is only available as an auto, the Golf R is available with manual, but far more are sold with the DSG. Porsche sell far more 911 with the DCT gearbox than the manual,”
I was thinking of the auto only Citroen C2 VTR that PSA tried to hoist onto Saxo loving teens and got nowhere and the Renault Clio 1.6 turbo Sport that replaced the hoot a minute Clio 197 and the Alfa 4C which desperately wanted to be a pricier Lotus Elise but comes with a flappy paddle box no one really rates. All were sales flops and Renault and Citroen reverted back to manuals for future hot hatches.
Fair enough on the mega power hatches and supercars though, the tide is very much flowing towards self shifters but having driven a DSG Golf R I’d still rather have the joy of changing my own gears. It takes the fun away from driving a good hot hatch. Combined with the numb electric power steering we get these days in place of feelsome hydraulic racks and it’s just a rocket powered executive.
Friend of mine who owns the Golf R did want a manual but VW were reluctant or unable to source one. It’s not so much that people want them it’s more that they’re being forced to take them if they want the car. Look at the volume of Ford hot hatches sold compared to rivals to see that the buying public still favour a stick to a computer. There’s far more Fiesta and Focus ST and Focus RS models around here than Golf R’s and overpriced Audi and Merc mega hatches. Yes price is a factor but you’ll have more fun in one that a self shifter.
But despite all the horsepower of these things I’m away back to the naughties and 90’s to find the last time I enjoyed a blast in a hot hatch. Focus Mk I ST170, Fiesta ST150, Pug 306 XSi, GTi 6, Renault Clio 16v, Renault 19 16v, Fiat Tipo 16v, Pug 205 GTi, 106 GTi, Saxo VTR/VTS etc etc. All slow by comparison but much more fun in reality.
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What I find interesting is how the hot hatch market has significantly declined over the past decade as many of these cars have been either jacked up significantly in price or luxuryfied (is that a word?), often to the extent you don't really need to be good driver to get the most out of them, which used to be their point. IMHO, not helped by adding dual clutch 'auto' gearboxes, or in some CVTs.
As a man now in his middle-age, I now want a GT type car (it doesn't have to be a saloon, a good looking hatch is fine) with the bit of luxury, a nice turn of speed and decent handling, but also good comfort, a bit of style to go with the high enegineering quality and reliability. And room for the golf bag and trolley in the boot. As such, I now want an auto box, but not an unrealiable dual clutch one, preferring a nice TC auto.
A shame this sort of car is out of my price range or only comes as the raw performance type models (most of the time shod on ultra low profile tyres) with the dual clutch boxes, or with engines that just don't cut it on the performance side (hint, hint, Mazda). I'd probably still go for a manual if the car ticked all the other boxes, but they are getting rarer nowadays, as well as very pricey indeed.
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People like manuals.
This is because manuals are cheaper than autos. If autos were cheaper than manuals I think you would find that people like autos.
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