Honda Jazz 2016 - Starting problem - Battery / charging system

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Tue 27 Mar 2018 14:42
Honda Jazz 2016 - Starting problem - Battery / charging system - Perfection

Problem:

I attempted to start the car after work and it took about 7-8 seconds of cranking to start.

The car in question is a Honda Jazz 1.3 petrol.

Background:

The car was driven to work over 50miles on the motorway and was parked for 9 hours and seems struggling to start. Note that whilst I was driving on the motorway I noted that the voltmeter readout ( plugged into cigarette light socket) fluctuate a lot between 12.6 to 14.9v. at one point I observed as low as 9.5v then goes back up gradually to 12.6v.

When car started I made my journey home via the motorway and and when got home ii switched the engine off and measured the battery voltage being 12.6v.

This morning I measured the battery terminal voltage being 12.35v on my Fluke DVM. Seems quite low but started ok.

As the car is still under warranty, I called the dealer and asked them to do a test on the battery but was told that I need to book in next month as they are too busy. I mentioned to the service team with the above information and told me not to measure the battery voltage with a multimeter as this could damage the ECU and charging system. Is this possible??

Honda uses smart charging system, but the voltage seems variable from my observation being anything low as 9v to 14.9v. Not sure if this is normal. So please advise if this is normal.

On Toyota smart charging system, the charging voltage is between 13.8 to 14.5v so the Honda reading is a baffling me.

What do the experts think and any ideas?

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Tue 27 Mar 2018 18:05
Honda Jazz 2016 - Starting problem - Battery / charging system - elekie&a/c doctor
If it cranks strongly for that amount time,then the battery may be ok.The fault may be elsewhere.No problem using a Fluke meter to check voltage,it is probably a better instrument than the dealer uses.
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Tue 27 Mar 2018 19:53
Honda Jazz 2016 - Starting problem - Battery / charging system - focussed

" told me not to measure the battery voltage with a multimeter as this could damage the ECU and charging system. Is this possible??"

No - total waste product from back end of male cow.

It amazes me that manufactures and dealers assume that car owners are as thick as they sometimes appear to be.

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Tue 27 Mar 2018 20:31
Honda Jazz 2016 - Starting problem - Battery / charging system - Perfection

I didn't get the confidence of the garage when they said I could damage the car by connecting a multimeter on the battery. I didn't want to say anything in respone as I was sick to my stomach when they said that.

Starting the car this morning with a battery voltage of 12.35V does not cause any cranking issue. Started within a second.

I have owned the car for 6 weeks and this is the first time it behaves like this. It started ok even when the temeprature was at sub zero a few weeks ago. I hope it is a glitch...

(I once experience similar issue on another car, it only happened once and never does it again in the next 15 years!).

Well will wait and see what happens between now and in the next few weeks before it goes in to the dealer. Will continue to measure the and monitor the voltage on the battery and when the car is running. I am not too hopeful they will find anything wrong with it, as the clues gvien by the dealer in terms of their knowledge.

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Tue 27 Mar 2018 22:24
Honda Jazz 2016 - Starting problem - Battery / charging system - Simon
I'm struggling to see what fault you are complaining about myself???
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Tue 27 Mar 2018 22:43
Honda Jazz 2016 - Starting problem - Battery / charging system - Perfection

Simon,

The car cranked longer than I expected for modern car.

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Tue 27 Mar 2018 22:47
Honda Jazz 2016 - Starting problem - Battery / charging system - focussed

I will say that every Honda i have owned over the past 15 years has had slight problems with the way they connect the battery to body earth. The earth tag from battery negative to the body is always connected via an M6 bolt with a serrated washer underneath the tag to cut into the paint and make the connection.

So on every car I have removed the bolt, scraped and sanded the area, battery terminal grease on it and the tag and refix the bolt well tightened.

Worth also checking whatever the engine block earth is connected to on the body and treat similarly.

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Wed 28 Mar 2018 08:11
Honda Jazz 2016 - Starting problem - Battery / charging system - daveyjp
Did it catch first time when it took longer than usual? My Subaru generally starts first turn, but on occasion it doesn’t quite catch and the engine doesn’t start. Some of it is probably down to me as I sometimes release the key slightly too early and cut the starter.

On second crank it generally takes a little longer, probably due to flooding of the engine from the fuel injected first time round.

If your Jazz is now starting OK I wouldn’t worry too much.
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Wed 28 Mar 2018 13:17
Honda Jazz 2016 - Starting problem - Battery / charging system - SteVee

My wife's Clio has the same starting 'problem'. Sometimes it needs a long cranking time before it fires. Once it fires it runs fine. SparkPlugs are good, Battery is old (7years), but still good and able to give adequate cranking speed. Delaying the crank phase while the fuel pump builds pressure does NOT affect the problem. It just takes some cranking sometimes.

Unlike my 18year old Primera which just burts into life as soon as the starter turns :-)

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Wed 28 Mar 2018 15:00
Honda Jazz 2016 - Starting problem - Battery / charging system - skidpan

Starting the car this morning with a battery voltage of 12.35V

If that voltage was before you cranked then the battery is near death, you are lucky to get the car to turn over at all.

A heathy battery should show about 12.7 volts after an overnight parkup.

Check the voltage across the terminal before turning the car on using an accurate volt meter. If its less than 12.6 volts buy a new battery.

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Wed 28 Mar 2018 17:42
Honda Jazz 2016 - Starting problem - Battery / charging system - Miniman777
Suspect battery is failing. My Oct 2015 Juke’s battery lasted 2 years before replacement under warranty. OP should ensure dealer does not charge for replacement as batteries should last longer but the stop/start hammers the battery quite a bit.
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Wed 28 Mar 2018 22:15
Honda Jazz 2016 - Starting problem - Battery / charging system - Perfection

Skidpad, yes the voltage was measured before cranking.

After doing more research on how the Honda's smart charging (aka ELD) system works, I am shocked!

The normal charging voltage is from 12.4V to 14.9V - depending on the electrical load. I can see there is a flaw to this.

I didn't have any starting issue a few weeks ago when my driving to work and home require headlamps to be on (charging voltage at 14.4V). As of this week I didn't need the headlamps to be on as it is still bright and I observed that the charging voltage is between 12.2 to 12.6V (irrespective of engine speeds).

This might explains why the battery voltage is low before cranking (i.e. 12.35V), i.e. not charging the battery properly. I think the battery is already damaged by the Honda charging system. Will see and what the dealer says.

Some people have been modifying the ELD to provide charge at 14.4V all the time. The smart charging system is not so smart here. Honda is trying to give a few more mpg but at the expense of damaging the battery. What a concept!

Edited by Perfection on 28/03/2018 at 22:16

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Wed 28 Mar 2018 23:10
Honda Jazz 2016 - Starting problem - Battery / charging system - elekie&a/c doctor
It’s not just Honda.The majority of car makers now use some kind of smart charge system.Ford systems can charge up to 15.8 volts under certain conditions.
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Thu 29 Mar 2018 23:24
Honda Jazz 2016 - Starting problem - Battery / charging system - Big John

9v sounds plain wrong - are you sure the multimeter terminals are properly connected? If it has really hit 9v then the battery must be goosed, however I'm not convinced.

If it fluctuates between 12.6 and 14.9v then this is normal with many a modern car. I have a 2014 Skoda Superb with stop/start and regenerative charging. I also have a Volton (voltage sensing) split relay plugged in that I use to plug a coolbox in and find it's not always running!

Between 13.8 and 14.5 is just charging!

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Fri 30 Mar 2018 11:58
Honda Jazz 2016 - Starting problem - Battery / charging system - Perfection

Hi Big John,

The voltage measurement of 9v is read from a "Plugged in to the cigarette reader meter". Pretty accurate as I have confirmed with another Fluke DVM. (So it wasn't measured at the battery).

But what I suspect is that the alternator voltage fluctuated so much that it went lower than the 12.4v limits for about 5 minutes. But I continued with the driving for another 10 miles and parked up at work. I should have measured the battery with the DVM at the bayyery, but rushed to work. So effective parked there for a good 9 hours before when I return to the car to try and start the car and the car just continued to crank for a very long period like 10s. I couldn't stop the cranking as it was a push button start type.

I had the battery load tested at Half*** and they confirmed the battery is good. They said it is not charging at 12 to 12.6v. They tried to contact Honda and asked for advise but was unable to help. So Half*** advised to put the headlights on during the day even not required until the dealer get a chance to look at it. This is to get the battery charging.

So if anyone sees a Honda jazz driving with the headlights on during a sunny day, that's me.

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Fri 30 Mar 2018 19:11
Honda Jazz 2016 - Starting problem - Battery / charging system - skidpan

If it fluctuates between 12.6 and 14.9v then this is normal with many a modern car.

Correct, that is exactly what our Kia, BMW and Seat did, not checked either Nissan or Skoda.

The old dumb alternators varied as well. Never saw better than 13.7 from a Lucas alternator of seberal types but Valeo, Motorola and Denso all charge at 14.4 volts after starting which drtops to 14.2 volts after about 10 miles or so when very few consumers are switched on.

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