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Tue 29 Mar 2016 18:44

Honda Concerto - Whos to blame? - tomsy

Hi. Beginning of last sept i bought a used honda concerto as a modding project from a dealership. Car cost only £500 and had all the age related bumps dings and scratches i expected from a car from 1994. Fresh MOT 3 weeks prior to me buying it and had new calipers so assumed it was ok and only had a few advisories. Sold as seen per usual and it drove ok but a bit saggy in the suspension which i was going to replace with aftermarket coilovers anyway. i drove the car home and it seemd fine, used for a few weeks and done appox 340 miles.

I had to have a wrist opp that month which took me out of work and driving for around 8 weeks. I then went and broke my leg at football a few days after i went back to work which ive only just started driving again from. So the car has literally stood still since i had my wrist opp end of sept 2015.

Last week i took my car to a mates garage to fit some new coil springs and asked if he could identify any other problems. My mate at the garage rang me back and said that the car should not be on the road at all! Never should have passed an MOT at all! Deathtrap my mate put it. Rust all over underside with exhaust barely attatched. The Sub-frame at some point actually had been welded together and now had split. The entire subframe was floating with corrosion all over it! i couldnt believe how bad it was when i saw it on the ramp!

I phoned the dealership and they blamed the MOT. I phoned the MOT and they said blame the garage who sold it to me. So i phoned trading standards and they said contact the dealership as its their responsibility which i did. Just got the same bs about car being old and the guy on the end just wouldnt even let me explain anything! Kept saying not his problem which i correctly pointed out it is in fact his problem and gave him the option to see the car on the ramp at the garage near me, only half hr away from the dealership. Of course he declined saying i need to bring the car to him which obviously i told him its not road worthy in the slightest. He then continued to say nothing he could do and angerly hung up on me.

I emailed them with 10 days to respond and sent them a pic of the state of the carasking them to resolve the solution by paying to fix or full refund. Now i just want to go down there and confront them with an iron bar as they were so rude on the phone and completely ignorant to the fact this car is dangerous and that they used a dodgy mot station which put this car through. So angry and im glad they live not on my doorstep or i would have personally confronted them which might not have been so amicable.

Anyway i rang them after the email and another guy picked up the phone, panicked when i asked him to read the email involving trading standards and hung up. If these clowns dont respond within the 10 days where do i go from there? Should the dealership technically be working with me as its the MOT centre who passed a deathtrap of a car for them be liable in the end? I have a car thats just sat there with expensive new parts that i bought which i now have to return if i can. just really infuriated about it all!!!

(Edit: Paras inserted to avoid readers losing the will to live.)

Edited by Avant on 30/03/2016 at 00:44

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Tue 29 Mar 2016 18:57

Honda Concerto - Whos to blame? - RT

Sounds about right for a £500 car

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Tue 29 Mar 2016 19:30

Honda Concerto - Whos to blame? - tomsy

what the underside or the dealer being a pain in the ass lol

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Tue 29 Mar 2016 19:44

Honda Concerto - Whos to blame? - Falkirk Bairn

It's around 25 years old. A mass produced "low cost" car from a reputable car manuafcturer.

25 year old cars fall into 2 categories

1) New Classic having received care, mechanical & body attention at great cost over the whole of its life

2) Scrap

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Tue 29 Mar 2016 20:00

Honda Concerto - Whos to blame? - RobJP

I have to agree with other posts. You bought a car for £500. Which is 1 step above 'scrap'.

Maybe you should have had it checked out properly by your 'mate's garage' before buying a load of parts.

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Tue 29 Mar 2016 20:11

Honda Concerto - Whos to blame? - focussed

It sounds like a really dodgy MOT operation there.

You can try reporting them to the DVSA as it is now - but in the absence of photo evidence I doubt they will take any action.

Been there - tried that - "I've been trying to get rid of them for years but I can't, I always get overruled from above and they get away with it" said the then VOSA inspector to me.

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Tue 29 Mar 2016 20:43

Honda Concerto - Whos to blame? - Mike H

It's around 25 years old. A mass produced "low cost" car from a reputable car manuafcturer.

25 year old cars fall into 2 categories

1) New Classic having received care, mechanical & body attention at great cost over the whole of its life

2) Scrap

Be that as it may, it doesn't excuse a dangerously unroadworthy vehicle being sold with a fresh MOT. Agreed, the OP could have had it independently checked, but would you bother with that expense on a £500 car? He was realistic about it not being perfect, but IMHO he should have been entitled to expect a roadworthy vehicle.

Bit of a problem that the fault has only now been discovered.

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Tue 29 Mar 2016 22:50

Honda Concerto - Whos to blame? - galileo

Any unit construction vehicle relies for its strength on steel usually only about 1 to 2 mm thick when new, salt and mud can eat a surprising amount away over 25 years.

Corrosion protection in the 1990s was not as good as now so a close look at the underside is advisable, even 'body on frame' vehicles like LandRovers and pickup trucks can suffer chassis rust, so also need checking if of that age.

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Tue 29 Mar 2016 23:05

Honda Concerto - Whos to blame? - ExA35Owner

Problem 1: £500 worth of car, as mentioned by others here.

Problem 2: you didn't check it thoroughly before purchase.

Problem 3: you didn't check it thoroughly immediately after purchase.

Problem 4: MoT is only about the state the car is in at the time of the test; the state it's in some months later won't cut very much ice.

Problem 5: you bought it before the change in consumer law, which might have protected you a bit.

Problem 6: under consumer law you do need to bring defective goods back to the seller - and that is indeed difficult!

I'm not sure there is a good way out of this - if you get a refund they'll want the car back, presumably?

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Wed 30 Mar 2016 00:27

Honda Concerto - Whos to blame? - brum

I think the concensus of opinion is when you buy a cheap banger, check it out straightaway and get back to the vendor within 14 days to argue. A 7 month delay, no one is going to give you any sympathy.

Its been stood for 6 months over winter, (outside?), those bangers I see in peoples front gardens usually turn into a heap of rust over a winter. Remember the Honda Concerto is co-developed by Honda and the Austin Rover Group.

Edited by brum on 30/03/2016 at 00:41

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Wed 30 Mar 2016 00:42

Honda Concerto - Who's to blame? - Avant

"Sold as seen per usual...." (line 3)

Is that what you agreed with the dealer? If so, best not to waste any more time on this, let alone money. And it isn't the dealer's fault that you didn't drive the car for six months: he has only your word for it that you didn't immediately start - to use your expression - 'modding it'.

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Wed 30 Mar 2016 02:11

Honda Concerto - Who's to blame? - tomsy

Ok first of all the mot was 3 weeks old when i bought the car and had no mention of the underside on the few advisories on the mot. This has not just happened over 6 months with a massive hole in the subframe being detached. U lot seem to think that a car from 1994 is scrap just on value. I have another concerto at home from 1992 and its solid underneath so its not like all old cars are rust buckets. Ive owned loads of 80s and 90s cars over the last 10 yrs and they have never been close to this amount of corrosion. Any mechanic can see these issues were definitely before i had the car by the sheer volume of corrosive damage. I dont see what me modding has anything to do with it either. It was only to put it on a ramp to stick springs on. Didnt get that far. Plus who now days gets under a car when the mot states its all fit for purpose. Doesnt matter if car is worth 500 or 5 mill. Its still selling a defective product and not being wear and tear from over use, only 340 miles since purchase, its looking like a dodgy mot all day long. Unfortunately its the dealers who will loose out as they were the ones who sold it to me, not the mot station. But vosa will be involved as its so obvious it should have never passed even 7 months ago. Trading standards seem to think as long as the mileage and condition are as i described then i should deffo be entitled to repair or just give car back full refund. Any half decent mechanic will look under the car and agree with what my mechanic friend said.

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Wed 30 Mar 2016 07:39

Honda Concerto - Who's to blame? - Brit_in_Germany

As it is more than 6 months since you purchased the car the burden of proof is on you to show that the car was defective on purchase. This will be difficult based on the existence of an appatently valid MOT which any court will take as proof that the car was road worthy.

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Wed 30 Mar 2016 08:46

Honda Concerto - Who's to blame? - slkfanboy

> U lot seem to think that a car from 1994 is scrap just on value.

Any car from the 80s or 90s is just that. The amount of cars that still exist is small relative to the amount made and most have been restored at some point. If this was not the case we would all be driving around in 20 years old cars.

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Wed 30 Mar 2016 09:07

Honda Concerto - Who's to blame? - tomsy

Your joking right. What a silly thing to say. Old does not mean scrap. There are loads of old cars on the road but ppl now want economy over anything now days and adding the governments scrappage scheme took a lot of useable cars off the road which has p***ed off a lot of enthusiasts. Look at the market for 90s jap cars for example. Thousands out there to buy from the 90s and worth well more than scrap. Ive owned loads of 90s cars worth more than a 5 year old "modern" car. I understand that newer cars have a huge appeal but u will be suprised how many cars from especially mid 90s are still decent vehicles even compared to newish ones. Its only cos people get over excited about low rd tax and emissions and mpg now days that their arnt more old cars on the road. Most of my cars have been jap supercars from the 90s and they are not in any way rusty or scrap value and thats them sitting in the uk most their life and not just off the boat from a rust free environment overseas. Do some research before assuming all old cars are scrap.

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Wed 30 Mar 2016 09:08

Honda Concerto - Who's to blame? - daveyjp

"Last week i took my car to a mates garage"

Next time take your mate to the garage before parting with any cash. £20 beer money would have saved you £500.

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Wed 30 Mar 2016 09:25

Honda Concerto - Who's to blame? - RT

£500 doesn't buy much - it was bought as a project car so should have been thoroughly examined, by you or your mate, before purchase - leaving it more than 6 months before complaining makes it impossible for you to have any real hope of success, as you simply have no way of proving anything.

You need to get real, Tomsy.

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Wed 30 Mar 2016 09:48

Honda Concerto - Who's to blame? - pd

The time limit on rust issues with a MOT is 3 months. Therefore you are out of time to complain to VOSA/DVSA about the MOT. You're out of time for having any comeback on the dealer either.

Unfortunately you are way too far after purchase & MOT to do anything constructive so you'll have to chalk it up to experience.

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Wed 30 Mar 2016 09:50

Honda Concerto - Who's to blame? - tomsy

Ok put it like this. I do have proof the car has been sitting there not moving just by the mileage before and after purchase and there is no way this rot corrosion and damage has been done by myself in that time frame. My mechanic friend was working away only up until a few months ago so couldn't bring him to see the car but come on guys seriously, regardless of how much a car costs it should never be sold in this condition. Cars dont deteriorate anything like this in 7 months and the fact that there were no advisories on the mot at all to do with the underside convinced me that it was probably ok. Naive i agree on my part but a fresh mot should be trusted and this was anything but. Trading standards seem to think that the time frame should not matter as the use of the car mileage etc is the main issue and that i haven't been using it and think i have a solid case providing i can prove it. Which i can. Been off work unable to drive for 7 months so they cant say ive been using it.

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Wed 30 Mar 2016 10:20

Honda Concerto - Who's to blame? - Cyd

think i have a solid case providing i can prove it. Which i can.

Go ahead then! Just make sure you come back here to let us know how wrong we were linked to the evidence!

Next time you're buying a car (or a house), remember this phrase: 'caveat emptor'

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Wed 30 Mar 2016 10:40

Honda Concerto - Who's to blame? - tomsy

Ive bought enough cars to know what sold as seen means but it doesnt override the fact that this product was not fit for purpose when sold to me. Yes its not straightforward but i believe that i have been sold a car with a dodgy mot. Just the fact that their are no mot advisories on anything that has been there for years is a dead giveaway. Plus car was stored inside so there is a limit to how much corrosion can do in that timeframe.

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Wed 30 Mar 2016 10:58

Honda Concerto - Who's to blame? - Bromptonaut

Tomsy,

You've asked for advice. What's been offered is pretty consistent and is concisely summarised in the post from Catsdad. Repeating the contrary view over agian doesn't increase it's chances of being correct.

If you want another view you could try Citizens Advice (www.citizensadvice.org.uk).

Alterntatively press ahead via small claimsand let us know how you get on.

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Wed 30 Mar 2016 13:18

Honda Concerto - Who's to blame? - RT

Ive bought enough cars to know what sold as seen means but it doesnt override the fact that this product was not fit for purpose when sold to me. Yes its not straightforward but i believe that i have been sold a car with a dodgy mot. Just the fact that their are no mot advisories on anything that has been there for years is a dead giveaway. Plus car was stored inside so there is a limit to how much corrosion can do in that timeframe.

Unless it's hermetically sealed, the moisture content of air in a workshop/garage is exactly the same as the ambient air - so expect the same rate of corrosion.

Due to your circumstances, you're out of time.

I can't believe that for all your claimed experience and a mate with a garage that you didn't check this all out before buying.

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Wed 30 Mar 2016 10:26

Honda Concerto - Who's to blame? - catsdad

In the circumstances you describe then the answer to your headline question is, as others have said, the supplying dealer. I don't think sold as seen has any meaning if it was a retail sale. However the problem is you have left it too long even though you have good reason for the delay.
So while you have the moral right on your side your options are limited to reaching an arrangement with the dealer; putting it down to experience and cannibalising or scrapping it ; or suing the dealer.
In the circumstances I wouldn't look beyond the first two options.

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Wed 30 Mar 2016 11:08

Honda Concerto - Who's to blame? - RobJP

I think the problem here is that Tomsy has come on, wanting to be told that it's all the fault of the big bad car dealer, and it's all going to be OK.

But it's not.

If you'd bought a £3000 car and had a fault with it more than 6 months after sale, then you'd have virtually no comeback against the dealer. A £500 car is one step abve scrap metal. Seven months after sale you have absolutely no legal basis whatsoever for any comeback on the selling garage.

Now, I appreciate this isn't what you WANT to hear. However, I think we are all pretty much agreed that it is what you NEED to hear.

That's what you get on here. Blunt, unvarnished viewpoint. No sugar-coating the pill. But what you actually need.

For some, that isn't very pleasant. You seem to be in denial, wanting someone else to blame.

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Wed 30 Mar 2016 11:14

Honda Concerto - Who's to blame? - pd

You may want to complain about a dody MOT but unfortunately there is a time limit to complain about a dodgy MOT in relation to corrission. It is 3 months. After that DVSA will not entertain any complaints.

Was it a dodgy MOT? Quite probably by the sound of it. Should the dealer have sold the car in that condition? No. Is it too late to do anything about it? Yes.

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Wed 30 Mar 2016 11:50

Honda Concerto - Who's to blame? - Simon

You bought a £500 car sold as seen, failed to examine it properly at the time and have decided seven months down the line that it is a rust bucket. Yet you are an expert on 80's/90's Jap cars and you think you have a leg to stand on. Not a chance...

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Wed 30 Mar 2016 15:56

Honda Concerto - Who's to blame? - slkfanboy

>I've bought enough cars to know what sold as seen means but it doesnt override the fact >that this product was not fit for purpose when sold to me.

That is true, but thats not the legal point of view. The car cost £500 six months ago. What is the reasonable expectation?

In court it could go either way as it might be consided reasonable that the Car would only last 1 mot and need work to pass the next mot. Without a full report on the car likely to £500 it's your word against his.

I think I would learn the lesson and use you money to purchase something else.

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